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A Further Caucasus Update


DHesquire

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On 1/23/2021 at 9:46 AM, Northstar98 said:

the main layout is okay, as is the mesh

The mesh is fine for fixed wing flying at higher altitude and airspeeds yes, but doing helicopter operations in those mountainous areas rubs the limitations of the map right in your face. When you're dropping off troops in a clearing at high altitude it feels like you're landing on the side of a huge triangle...

 

The region that's portrayed in the Caucasus map lends itself absolutely superbly for a combat flight sim, but to make helicopter operations more immersive it could use a substantial overhaul (with at the very least MUCH higher resolution ground textures and a MUCH higher resolution terrain mesh), or preferably starting from scratch since a overhaul is just what ED did 3 years ago.

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Just now, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

The mesh is fine for fixed wing flying at higher altitude and airspeeds yes, but doing helicopter operations in those mountainous areas rubs the limitations of the map right in your face. When you're dropping off troops in a clearing at high altitude it feels like you're landing on the side of a huge triangle...

 

Very true, I absolutely agree (and it's even worse when direct CA comes in) but I'd still say the mesh is 'good-enough', though it's still far from somewhere close to ideal.

 

Just now, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

The region that's portrayed in the Caucasus map lends itself absolutely superbly for a combat flight sim, but to make helicopter operations more immersive it could use a substantial overhaul (with at the very least MUCH higher resolution ground textures and a MUCH higher resolution terrain mesh), or preferably starting from scratch since a overhaul is just what ED did 3 years ago.

 

Absolutely, though given the size and detail of the place IRL, it would be a phenomenal amount of work and probably take up a phenomenal amount of space.

 

For me, I just want it to be more true to reality, as the real place is much more interesting and colourful, with even more potential.

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On 1/22/2021 at 6:13 PM, Northstar98 said:

 

Same, all the buildings save for a couple are completely generic; my main gripe is that the map isn't that accurate (again, Poti is a prime example of this, having the wrong layout, missing an airfield, a river, as well as the main strategic target - a port, and Paliastomi lake has a few inaccuracies too) and is missing a fair number of things, even within the detail area.

 

The generic green texture is also completely map wide, and comparing against IRL, the DCS Caucasus is a lot more barren than it actually is, especially in the western half.

 

Spot on💯

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30 minutes ago, Seaeagle said:

Yes thats true, but it became a necessity in order to expand the map further east into the Caucasus, the reason for which was because it seemed a more realistic area for combat scenarios than Crimea.

 

 

...so Syria by contrast isn't a politically "sensible" region? 🙂 .

 

I am sure you are right about ED's considerations, but the fact remains that for a map to have a realistic combat potential, it must necessarily have contested areas, which in turn inevitably comes with some degree of "political sensitivity"......just picking one that is sufficiently far from your own backyard isn't really a good argument.

I'm glad I'm not the only one with this thought. Syria has been contested a few years before the "situation" happened in the Crimea, and still is now.

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4 minutes ago, Dragon89 said:

I'm glad I'm not the only one with this thought. Syria has been contested a few years before the "situation" happened in the Crimea, and still is now.

 

Hell even the Caucasus area we have should be pretty politically sensitive, at least back in 2008... :music_whistling:

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51 minutes ago, Seaeagle said:

Yes thats true, but it became a necessity in order to expand the map further east into the Caucasus, the reason for which was because it seemed a more realistic area for combat scenarios than Crimea.

 

 

...so Syria by contrast isn't a politically "sensible" region? 🙂 .

 

I am sure you are right about ED's considerations, but the fact remains that for a map to have a realistic combat potential, it must necessarily have contested areas, which in turn inevitably comes with some degree of "political sensitivity"......just picking one that is sufficiently far from your own backyard isn't really a good argument.

 

 

 

Syria map has build by Ugra-Media, not ED. 3rd parties has not that "problem". "political sensitivity" coming by russian military / political stament, and you get to go to Jail......... Remember, ED dont can build none russian aircraft after 2000 (and now "depleted" Black Shark 3 expansion) by your main office has on moscow and the actual russian secret law.


Edited by Silver_Dragon
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1 hour ago, Silver_Dragon said:

 

Syria map has build by Ugra-Media, not ED. 3rd parties has not that "problem". "political sensitivity" coming by russian military / political stament, and you get to go to Jail......... Remember, ED dont can build none russian aircraft after 2000 (and now "depleted" Black Shark 3 expansion) by your main office has on moscow and the actual russian secret law.

 

I am not Russian so it remains a bit unclear to me, but how does making a map in DCS relate to rubbing the government in the wrong way? No one is asking to have borders drawn on the map, because yes, borders are contentious. But just providing the map, with accurate placement of cities and airfields that are, from scratch, neutral and can be attributed to either side in the mission editor is not a political statement. It just means the area is interesting as a theater. No one is asking ED to publish a campaign where you play as Ukraine to defend against invaders or anything like that ; just the map. I do not understand why this argument is valid for Crimea but not for Georgia. I would be happy to learn more about the difference between the two situations.

 

Not that I want this expansion, I am just curious. The Caucasus map is fine right now, it just needs higher density mesh in the mountains, textures, and more representative cities. The great thing is that it would make all the existing content in single player so much better, even if it might require some small rework like unit placement and such. But this could probably be faster than starting from scratch, which is what creators have to do on new maps like Syria.


Edited by Qiou87
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After what happened in Crimea, Chechnya, Donbas and considering ED is based in Moscow we should somehow give up on this map, ED has it's hands tied in this matter. Even if some guys pressing ED it's going to be beating a dead horse. Silverdragon is right.

 

Even if they would try to navigate through this minefield the whole region has such potential becoming "delicate" for Russian government any day they would be forced to remove some another part let's say next yeah. Because who knows. 

 

I like Caucasus region but i think they should focus elsewhere, i.e. central Europe/Fulda Gap, Baltics region, GIUK Gap, Vietnam, Korea etc.


Edited by bies
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@Silver_Dragon: Ok, I think I understand the point. I don't totally agree with the post you quoted (imho no map in DCS has borders or is depicted as being that or this country), however I also understand that I am not Russian, so maybe I cannot understand all that this topic means. I respect that ED might not risk their own liberty for this.

 

@bies: whilst I do love the idea of more maps (personally, outside of historical Vietnam/Kora, I'll love to see something around China to have a different opposition than typical NATO/Russia we have in DCS), I think the topic here is just to refresh the main DCS free map. I would assume that the amount of work needed would be less than creating a full new map. Of course, if that is not the case (for example, porting the Caucasus map to the new map creation tools like those used for Syria/Channel doesn't work), then ED might as well try a new region. But if a refresh really is possible, and only takes 10-20-30% of the man-hours needed for a new map, it could be considered in a few years. It is a beautiful region and I don't think the current map does it justice.


Edited by Qiou87
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22 hours ago, Silver_Dragon said:

Syria map has build by Ugra-Media, not ED. 3rd parties has not that "problem".

Ok fair enough, but the Syrian map FAQs you quoted was posted by Wags.

Quote

"political sensitivity" coming by russian military / political stament, and you get to go to Jail.

Sorry but thats just nonsense - you only need to read the Russian section of this forum to realise that. Besides, as others have mentioned, we are talking about a map.......no one is asking ED to make a campaign replicating particular events and supporting particular views on it.

 

Personally I think its just down to ED not wanting to deal with any political BS that might appear on the forums in connection with it - which is understandable. But the "government" bogey-man as an argument for all sorts of decisions regarding Russian contents in the sim is starting to become silly.

Quote

........ Remember, ED dont can build none russian aircraft after 2000 (and now "depleted" Black Shark 3 expansion) by your main office has on moscow and the actual russian secret law.

What has that got to do with game maps and politics?. If ED cannot build modern Russian aircraft modules due to military secrecy, its because they cannot obtain the necessary level of documentation for the purpose. Russia is not the only country being tied-lipped about this sort of thing.


Edited by Seaeagle
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23 minutes ago, Dlang said:

A Caucasus update is required🙂🙂


I’d like adding more Maps, like a Vietnam or Korea map .. Caucasus was already updated 3 years ago.

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11 hours ago, Dlang said:

A Caucasus update is required🙂🙂

 

Caucasus is the primary free map, IMHO it should be constantly updated and improved with small changes here and there (adding more buildings, improving height map, creating more detailed areas etc). But with major new terrain engine changes (like we are getting now with this second free map) it could be left for moment to old features so that new map gets more promotion (converted to new tech but not utilizing it yet).

 

Now the Marianas Islands map likely could become a primary free map. At least as we get choice which one to install in first installation. It should be the one IMHO if size is smaller, but primarily that it is now the latest tech and latest visual quality and that should be used for promoting DCS more than a wide empty Caucasus with just heavy mountainous areas.

 

Caucasus could be be opened as community editing (allowing only add stuff like trees, buildings and draw roads.) where some areas are up to vote to be included.

 

This of course if ED can't have resources as couple working adding just more details here and there (to get rid of empty towns and cities with ground textures faking places).

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How many would dislike if Caucasus v2 map, done from scratch. Would take 220-230 GiB of disk space?

 

It is still one of the major areas, but higher detail would make it up IMHO.

 

 

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12 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:


I’d like adding more Maps, like a Vietnam or Korea map .. Caucasus was already updated 3 years ago.

As much as I would love to see (further) Caucasus improvements, I'd donate my left nut for a Vietnam map

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48 minutes ago, Desert Fox said:

Stumbled upon that last night. Such a stunning landscape ❤️

 

 

Maybe even having some selected texture mods pass IC would be an option? This dull ever repeating vanilla green really does not look that good 😉

 

Definitely agreed, but one thing I will say - if you go into SAT view in the ME or F10 and zoom out, you'll actually see more photo-realistic textures, you'll even see entire airbases that aren't actually in DCS become visible, even towns/villages and major rivers. However, If you zoom in though, the detail actually reduces, you'll lose sight of things that should be present, and the texture changes to the generic green.


Edited by Northstar98

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One thing that no one has touched upon, that ED has obviously thought about.

 

Do you want a free map with highly detailed areas and has high resolution terrain mesh that is the first point of contact for newcomers?   Yes?

 

Do you want to keep those new users?  Of course, that is the point of the free map.

 

What proportion of those new users, casually trying out DCS for the first time have PCs capable of running such detailed maps..  Anyone know?

 

Result of an astounding free map is for a significant proportion of newbies to watch what is essentially a slideshow and bail.  Not at all what ED wants.

 

ED are playing a careful balancing act.


Edited by Tinkickef
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One thing that no one has touched upon, that ED has obviously thought about.
 
Do you want a free map with highly detailed areas and has high resolution terrain mesh that is the first point of contact for newcomers?   Yes?
 
Do you want to keep those new users?  Of course, that is the point of the free map.
 
What proportion of those new users, casually trying out DCS for the first time have PCs capable of running such detailed maps..  Anyone know?
 
Result of an astounding free map is for a significant proportion of newbies to watch what is essentially a slideshow and bail.  Not at all what ED wants.
 
ED are playing a careful balancing act.
That shouldn't be an issue, that's why you have settings. Correct optimization can affect the number and complexity of assets shown on the screen, foliage, draw distance, terrain mesh detail etc.

ED already offers options regarding these things and allowing users to select which areas they're willing to compromise on, to achieve better framerates.

The main relevant problem with DCS is that it's quite unoptimized and that might be a limiting factor in development. But it's unoptimized for everyone.
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20 minutes ago, Tinkickef said:

One thing that no one has touched upon, that ED has obviously thought about.

 

Do you want a free map with highly detailed areas and has high resolution terrain mesh that is the first point of contact for newcomers?   Yes?

 

Do you want to keep those new users?  Of course, that is the point of the free map.

 

What proportion of those new users, casually trying out DCS for the first time have PCs capable of running such detailed maps..  Anyone know?

 

Result of an astounding free map is for a significant proportion of newbies to watch what is essentially a slideshow and bail.  Not at all what ED wants.

 

ED are playing a careful balancing act.

 

You're forgetting a map though - the Mariana islands. 

 

Sure it's more limited and doesn't fit the free aircraft at all, but that map will be super detailed (the best yet supposedly), while probably not being too bad on the performance (only Guam is densely populated, the other islands not so much).

 

If ED were to redo the Caucasus (they'd probably be better off starting from scratch), it should be a completely new map, that is paid. For non-owners however, there is always the possibility of keeping the current map, in its current, free state.

 

3 minutes ago, Harker said:

That shouldn't be an issue, that's why you have settings. Correct optimization can affect the number and complexity of assets shown on the screen, foliage, draw distance, terrain mesh detail etc.

ED already offers options regarding these things and allowing users to select which areas they're willing to compromise on, to achieve better framerates.

The main relevant problem with DCS is that it's quite unoptimized and that might be a limiting factor in development. But it's unoptimized for everyone.

 

Exactly and AFAIK, the main issue with map performance (particularly on the Channel and Syria) is object density (particularly high detail objects), that can probably be resolved with optimisation, without reducing the quality of said objects up close.


Edited by Northstar98

Modules I own: F-14A/B, Mi-24P, AV-8B N/A, AJS 37, F-5E-3, MiG-21bis, F-16CM, F/A-18C, Supercarrier, Mi-8MTV2, UH-1H, Mirage 2000C, FC3, MiG-15bis, Ka-50, A-10C (+ A-10C II), P-47D, P-51D, C-101, Yak-52, WWII Assets, CA, NS430, Hawk.

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6 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

 

You're forgetting a map though - the Mariana islands. 

 

Sure it's more limited and doesn't fit the free aircraft at all, but that map will be super detailed (the best yet supposedly), while probably not being too bad on the performance (only Guam is densely populated, the other islands not so much).

 

If ED were to redo the Caucasus (they'd probably be better off starting from scratch), it should be a completely new map, that is paid. For non-owners however, there is always the possibility of keeping the current map, in its current, free state.  

 

The thing about the marianas though, and probably why they chose it is that it is pretty much all sea that is easy on performance.  Again a balance between low detailed areas and a few smaller but much higher detailed areas with no terrain mesh to be loading 40  -  50 miles ahead.

 

I can see the past meetings when they were discussing how best to display the eye candy without a slideshow on lower end PCs. 

Very clever compromise.


Edited by Tinkickef

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3 minutes ago, Tinkickef said:

The thing about the marianas though, and probably why they chose it is that it is pretty much all sea that is easy on performance.

 

IIRC they're trialling out some new terrain technology (no details about it though) on the Marianas map, so sticking with a small area would've cut the workload dramatically (especially for the detail they're going for).

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