How is the Harrier now?

[imacken]

About a year ago, I asked this question (can't find the thread now) and the response from most of you was not too favourable to say the least, so I left the module alone.

I see there have been quite a few updates since then, so I was wondering how you are all feeling about the Harrier now.

[dorianR666]

Better than ever before, but still rather buggy.

Sidearm is kind of unusable at the moment, MFCD texts still overlap on many pages. HUD repeater on MFCD doesnt work with display exports. HUD symbology for DMT is messed up. Issues with TDC movement on some joysticks remain. ARBS still doesnt require contrast point (incorrect modeling).

Some large updates were done by Razbam a few months ago, changing a lot of stuff (HOTAS controls, JDAM deployment) which improved the module in many ways.

 

Overall I cant say I recommend it or not recommend it either.

 

There was a free trial period just a few weeks ago, should have tried it.

Edited January 21, 2021 by dorianR666

[imacken]

Thanks. I've owned the module for a long time, but I put off investing a lot more time learning it because of the various comments on here in the past.

Just curious to see if the general feeling had improved over the last year.

[wowbagger]

9 minutes ago, imacken said:

Thanks. I've owned the module for a long time, but I put off investing a lot more time learning it because of the various comments on here in the past.

Just curious to see if the general feeling had improved over the last year.

 

 

I'm in the exact same boat and wondering the same thing. Are the training missions working? Is the module working well enough that I can learn it and know when I'm doing something wrong vs it just being another bug?

 

Cheers

[Hodo]

I recently flew my Harrier online and I can say they fixed some things and broke others.

 

The graphics for the weapons control panel got broke in the most recent patch.  It used to light up red when you selected a station now it stays black.  Sidearms sensors are very broken, you won't get a lock tone but it will be tracking.  Other times you will get a tone and it is not tracking anything.    The CCIP drop line will sometimes be wildly off target, like inverted.   The gun pip is about as accurate as a WWII gun sight.   

 

These are just a few of the things I have noticed.

 

[Wisky]

i did buy the Harrier as my first module during the black friday sale.

since then it has been improved a lot and i liked flying it more and more with every update.

the training missions back then worked, but for the tpod update i had to watch a youtube video to understand how it works, as the traing was still referencing to the old module.

 

i did fly the 18 and the 16 during the free2play event but i would still favor the Harrier for any air2ground mission i could think of.

 

there seems to be a problem with the TDC slew, but that seems to be only happening for T16000 throttle users, so seems to be a hardware issue.

 

some people say the sidearms dont work, and while they wont point towards the target anymore, if you got tone you can shoot. and if you got no tone because you are too far away but you can see the enemy unit on your tpod you can still point the targeting carrot towards it and shoot. the missile will track once its close enough. 

 

i dont use the DMT because thats gonna be gone with the AV-8B plus anyway.

Hud repeater? never used.

CCIP drop line off target? never had that happen to me.

Gun Pipper is slightly low, but its no problem if you hold it just slightly higher.

slight bugs like some lights not working for an update or two? i dont really give a crap.

 

i have more than 650 hours racked up flying the harrier since november, so i would say if its working for me, it should normally for everyone.

 

so if your asking my recommendation? thats a big fat: ‚yes‘

but i am a fanboy, so at the end its you who will decide

[dorianR666]

1 hour ago, Wisky said:

but that seems to be only happening for T16000 throttle users, so seems to be a hardware issue.

There are sticks from other manufacturers as well causing this issue. At the same time, other modules do not have this issue with T16000.

Its not a hardware problem, but software problem in Razbam modules. It might be tricky to program it right, I know Deka has/had a similar problem with axes input for 802AKG.

Edited January 21, 2021 by dorianR666

[Dr Zaius]

I adore the Harrier but she's a fickle mistress, imo Razbam are very close to having the best module out there but are let down by the little things, annoying bugs that make you question your own sanity, strange control logic that’s difficult to replicate / report, that sort of thing - having no (official) manual doesn't help although it's being worked on by the excellent Baltic Dragon who consistently delivers quality with both missions and campaigns - its therefore a bit of a mixed bag, despite her faults though she's bloody hard to walk away from!

 

I’d therefore say go for it but would urge caution with future Razbam products, all this doesn’t bode well for the Mudhen which is much, much more complex and therefore could sit ‘unfinished’ for years.

Edited January 21, 2021 by Dr Zaius

[wowbagger]

I already went for it, having owned the module for a couple of years now. For me the limited resource is time to invest in a module.

 

  All the things you describe lead me to think that my time is still better invested elsewhere. I'm Baltic Dragon's  biggest supporter (at least in my head), but if the module still doesn't have a manual (what's the state of the training missions two years on?)... it says a lot about the developers' attitude toward their patrons. This is in no way a comment on BD  - his training missions are the envy of every other module. But if the state of unfinished systems, changes, and bugs renders them ineffective and a manual impossible to write ... 

Perhaps this isn't the case? I really don't know.

 

I want a working DMT for  Cold War Middle East Liberation missions. I have no need for yet another TGP truck.

I want a developer to delve into why the TDC slew may not be working for everyone.

 

It sounds like I'm better off waiting ... still. Thanks for the input.

Edited January 22, 2021 by wowbagger

[Fri13]

5 hours ago, Hodo said:

 It used to light up red when you selected a station now it stays black.

 

Let's say "switches a red patch over black ones on selected stations" instead "light up" AFAIK there shouldn't be lights at all in that panel.

But confirm, doesn't do that.

 

5 hours ago, Hodo said:

  Sidearms sensors are very broken, you won't get a lock tone but it will be tracking.  Other times you will get a tone and it is not tracking anything. 

 

I get the tone (growling sidewinder) when I select them, and I get the lock tone. But the target reticle still jumps sometimes bottom of the HUD and then sometimes on the emission position as should. So fixed partially.

 

5 hours ago, Hodo said:

  The CCIP drop line will sometimes be wildly off target, like inverted. 

 

Confirm.

And CCRP line is not visible unless you are flying straight at it. It use to be at full HUD width, possibly wrong, but now it is like 2-3 degree FOV before it gets drawn and you need to be in a fairly level flight, and this means that if you do not already come from far straight toward it, you don't see it. And if you need to perform slight roll to turn toward it, you likely never see it and you just turn past and are again missing the fall line.

 

5 hours ago, Hodo said:

 The gun pip is about as accurate as a WWII gun sight.

 

It likely should be inaccurate, but get accurate when you use DMT to lock on target to get the slant range etc.

But now the gun is even at flat terrain so inaccurate that you can't hit a tank at 500 ft range even as shots can fly somewhere else.

 

5 hours ago, Hodo said:

These are just a few of the things I have noticed.

 

There are many odd things, that just requires first finding are they proper bugs or not.

[Fri13]

4 hours ago, Wisky said:

there seems to be a problem with the TDC slew, but that seems to be only happening for T16000 throttle users, so seems to be a hardware issue.

 

Not a hardware issue but a programming issue. The old bug was that you couldn't slew the sensors if you had 10/12/14 bit hats (ie. TM16k throttle, VKB MCG etc), but you could if you used a 8-bit hat (ie. CH Pro Throttle).

Now it is back, that it is easier to use with CH Pro Throttle hat to slew around, but using any higher resolution hats cause problems. The testing software shows there is zero ghosting, always centering properly hats, no false inputs etc. But only in Harrier if those are binded to DTC then randomly the input is received and the DMT is designated from the Velocity Vector at random places. The slewing is jittery if works at all, the sensitivity is way too high if not using curves and saturation, and if you apply those then it goes just worse. The deadzone doesn't help at all in the ghost presses as you can have deadzone at 30 and it still cause fake DTC down (depress). You can't designate the target as pressing it will cause DMT to jump where VV was on the moment (your DMT can be slewed and locked on ground and it will jump from there elsewhere).

Undesignation doesn't work properly, you can have designation 30 degree down at 5 nmi distance, press a undesignate and DMT jumps half way toward VV and gets locked between gimbal movement. You can be required press twice the undesignation to get DMT locked to VV, but it can then right away designate itself to sky and stay there.

 

This is not a hardware issue but has been for years. There are now new things but likely related to SVG HUD changes. Like everytime DMT is moved, the large target box is locked to bottom of the HUD regardless where the designation really is. The two-speed slewing doesn't work etc.

 

4 hours ago, Wisky said:

some people say the sidearms dont work, and while they wont point towards the target anymore, if you got tone you can shoot. and if you got no tone because you are too far away but you can see the enemy unit on your tpod you can still point the targeting carrot towards it and shoot. the missile will track once its close enough. 

 

AFAIK the Sidearm problem was that it was Lock On Before Launch, so you need a solid lock to target before launching. So firing it without lock should result to inert missile.

 

4 hours ago, Wisky said:

i dont use the DMT because thats gonna be gone with the AV-8B plus anyway.

 

DMT is the fun part on the Harrier. The TPOD is like taking a A-10C or a F/A-18C etc.

The problem is that DMT is not properly modeled and is broken by slewing possibilities etc.

 

4 hours ago, Wisky said:

Hud repeater? never used.

 

The standard procedure AFAIK is that you have the HUD repeater on always when landing or taking off, so that if you get HUD malfunction you have the information right away on your MFCD.

The problem is that if the HUD is turned Off, so is then the HUD repeater information. That shouldn't happen as the HUD processing and calculations should not be tied to the physical HUD itself. Meaning you should be able to keep HUD repeater On and HUD Off and perform landing/take-off with it.

 

4 hours ago, Wisky said:

CCIP drop line off target? never had that happen to me.

 

It goes wanky, There are some other problems still there.

 

4 hours ago, Wisky said:

Gun Pipper is slightly low, but its no problem if you hold it just slightly higher.

slight bugs like some lights not working for an update or two? i dont really give a crap.

 

Well, some lights can be at lower priority, but eventually they need to be fixed. It is just one cut more on the way for thousand. And then it will hurt a lot when you have on all places the small bugs here and there. It gives the feeling that nothing really works right as everything is little wrong or broken.

 

4 hours ago, Wisky said:

i have more than 650 hours racked up flying the harrier since november, so i would say if its working for me, it should normally for everyone.

 

Well, it is pretty unusable when you can't reliably even use its main DMT targeting system, or even TPOD.

 

4 hours ago, Wisky said:

so if your asking my recommendation? thats a big fat: ‚yes‘

but i am a fanboy, so at the end its you who will decide

 

[Wisky]

i find this weird what you are describing of the DMT slewing. Could it be that you have the wrong sensor SOI? Because what you are describing is the way the slewing and target locking works when INS or HUD is SOI.

 

i dont have the 18 or the 10, so why should i miss out on the TPOD fun? But i will try some stuff this evening.

[imacken]

Thanks guys for the interesting comments.

So, I tried the TM13 Sensors mission, and there were so many things that didn't work, e.g. INS/HUD slewing and sensor select commands, that I gave up, just like I did before with this.

Are the TMs out of date and not usable in some cases, or are the non-functioning aspects still bugs?

Edited January 22, 2021 by imacken

[Wisky]

the Training Missions are all pre-Tpod update, so a lot of the Sensors are a bit tricky without watching some youtube vids that show how the changes work.

 

i would recommend finding a squadron that has ppl available for some personal teaching though

Edited January 22, 2021 by Wisky

[Hodo]

17 hours ago, Fri13 said:

 

Let's say "switches a red patch over black ones on selected stations" instead "light up" AFAIK there shouldn't be lights at all in that panel.

But confirm, doesn't do that.

 

 

I get the tone (growling sidewinder) when I select them, and I get the lock tone. But the target reticle still jumps sometimes bottom of the HUD and then sometimes on the emission position as should. So fixed partially.

 

 

Confirm.

And CCRP line is not visible unless you are flying straight at it. It use to be at full HUD width, possibly wrong, but now it is like 2-3 degree FOV before it gets drawn and you need to be in a fairly level flight, and this means that if you do not already come from far straight toward it, you don't see it. And if you need to perform slight roll to turn toward it, you likely never see it and you just turn past and are again missing the fall line.

 

 

It likely should be inaccurate, but get accurate when you use DMT to lock on target to get the slant range etc.

But now the gun is even at flat terrain so inaccurate that you can't hit a tank at 500 ft range even as shots can fly somewhere else.

 

 

There are many odd things, that just requires first finding are they proper bugs or not.

 

 

Light up is the best way I can describe it.  I don't get the red patch anymore just a black patch with a very thin red outline.  Before you could clearly see the red patch.  

 

Sidearm tone will continue to sound like it has a lock after launch of one, even if you have turned cold.  You have to cycle cage and uncage to reset.   

 

The gun pipper is high compared to round impact point.  Even when coming in on a textbook run.  I am not talking a few feet, I am talking your shots land almost a full gun pip circle below the pip.  

 

[andyn]

On 1/21/2021 at 6:41 PM, Wisky said:

i did buy the Harrier as my first module during the black friday sale.

since then it has been improved a lot and i liked flying it more and more with every update.

Black Friday? After that there has been one patch with Harrier fixes, so saying "with every update" here is a bit intellectually dishonest.

 

On 1/21/2021 at 6:41 PM, Wisky said:

there seems to be a problem with the TDC slew, but that seems to be only happening for T16000 throttle users, so seems to be a hardware issue.

Nope, not a hardware issue. Happens on the Warthog with the Deltasim slew and on the analog hats on the VKB MCG Pro, so at this point blaming users with quality gear for bugs is just being a dick.

 

On 1/21/2021 at 6:41 PM, Wisky said:

some people say the sidearms dont work, and while they wont point towards the target anymore, if you got tone you can shoot.

The Sidearm crosshair has been buggy as long as I've owned the module, around 2 years. While it's just a minor inconvenience it constantly reminds us that Razbam is incapable or unwilling to fix issues that get reported again and again.

 

On 1/21/2021 at 6:41 PM, Wisky said:

i dont use the DMT because thats gonna be gone with the AV-8B plus anyway.

Hud repeater? never used.

CCIP drop line off target? never had that happen to me.

Gun Pipper is slightly low, but its no problem if you hold it just slightly higher.

slight bugs like some lights not working for an update or two? i dont really give a crap.

 

On 1/21/2021 at 6:41 PM, Wisky said:

i have more than 650 hours racked up flying the harrier since november, so i would say if its working for me, it should normally for everyone.

The video game addiction hotline number is +1-888-966-8152.

 

On 1/21/2021 at 6:41 PM, Wisky said:

so if your asking my recommendation? thats a big fat: ‚yes‘

but i am a fanboy, so at the end its you who will decide

So am I - It's just that it's impossible to enjoy a product that constantly tries to gaslight you.

[XpRiV]

8 hours ago, andyn said:

The video game addiction hotline number is +1-888-966-8152.

[HILOK]

great post @andyn 

sadly, when i read this kind of stuff, i really lose trust buying from razbam in the near future. what a shame.

[SGT Coyle]

Too many Show stopping bugs for me.  I've been flying DCS products since before the A10C Warthog and I own/fly all the A/C and  Terrain Modules.  The Harrier is by far my favorite to fly, but I haven't for months.  As I said, too many show stopping bugs as of this post.

 

[imacken]

If you haven't flown in for months, how can you tell if a lot of the bugs haven't been dealt with?  Only asking!

[SGT Coyle]

Just now, imacken said:

If you haven't flown in for months, how can you tell if a lot of the bugs haven't been dealt with?  Only asking!

I keep going back after updates to see if it's any better.  It's not.

[Fri13]

3 hours ago, SGT Coyle said:

I keep going back after updates to see if it's any better.  It's not.

 

Some improvements has been made, but so much has been just.... left there or new one has appeared.

I love Harrier, it is maybe my most flown western aircraft so far. But it is so painful to see it in such a condition, after its release (4 years now).

 

 

[SGT Coyle]

To be clear, I'm not saying or claiming that there hasn't been progress, but problems with the TDC axis control, via "Controller Axis" and as of late "Keyboard Commands" have been known for some time and persist as of this posting.

 

[Beltza]

I'm perplexed with this post. I fly the Harrier almost every day and all the stuff is usable. There are some bugs, but the harrier is awesome, one of the best modules in dcs. 

[Fri13]

On 1/22/2021 at 5:10 PM, Hodo said:

 

 

Light up is the best way I can describe it.  I don't get the red patch anymore just a black patch with a very thin red outline.  Before you could clearly see the red patch.  

 

Sidearm tone will continue to sound like it has a lock after launch of one, even if you have turned cold.  You have to cycle cage and uncage to reset.   

 

The gun pipper is high compared to round impact point.  Even when coming in on a textbook run.  I am not talking a few feet, I am talking your shots land almost a full gun pip circle below the pip.  

 

 

I have now tested more carefully the weapons panel. The RED patches appears when sun is shining through a cockpit at sides. But when sun shines from the front or rear or in from canopy, then red patches becomes black, or very faintly tinted to dark green as the instruments lighting lits them from back.

 

So they don't stay all the time as red and simply be bright or darker depending does sun light them through canopy.

 

The bug is that the darker red switch backgrounds stays red properly, but the same color patches for selected stations will not.

Edited January 27, 2021 by Fri13