Wheel brake temperature management

[Tigroou]

Hello all,

 

After playing hours on aerobatics server, I observed many players who totally don’t care about the runway in use and they go direct to the closest threshold. Even with tail wind of 20/25 kts. 
DCS doesn’t brings you the need to do so because there is no need to manage your brake temperature according to the kinetic energy you reach. 
 

Wish:

calculate your Emergency and Normal braking ground speed according to T/O and LDG weight.

Players who will need to wait for 100kts (exemple) before engaging break action not to have the gear melting at the end of runway would give a real need of accuracy and make landing a new challenge in accuracy. 
Touchdown on ILS threshold on a Nato runway (around 300m from VFR one) with a heavy (AG CONF+ fuel) fighter is impossible in real life without engaging arresting cable/barrier. You have to aim at the first meter of runway. Especially in poor country with short runways (France )

 

Wish2:

use of a Tornado with reversed thrust possible

Tigrou, waiting for new clouds and IMC close formation practice... 

PS: thanks again to the ED Team for your work. 

[Northstar98]

1 hour ago, Desert Fox said:

Big +1

Would be nice to have such simulated as well as tires blowing due too overstressing.

 

Blowouts are kinda already there, I've definitely popped tyres when landing too hard, and in some modules from excessive, hard braking.

 

But yes, reduction in brake effectiveness and maybe even fires would be nice to see +1

[Tigroou]

Tyres stress seems to be already simulated and it’s a good point (the Su27 is sensitive on this point...). I was not in navy, but I know that tyre pressure are not set to same pressure for land and carrier operations. 
 

Temperature reached by brake are really a big factor as you have to calculate before you fly which weight and speed you will land (for each possible configuration of the day). It’s one of main point of a datacard...
therefore dump fuel capability is mandatory on fighter.

for exemple: a birdstrike with a mirage 2000 just after T/O will mostly conduct to hold (if possible) to land at the good maximum landing weight, or reduce your maximum descent rate limitation on touchdown. 
A modern fighter is often easy to pilot, but hard to manage. 
DCS gives already this realistic feeling... let’s go deeper!! :) 

 

 

[Mars Exulte]

On 1/21/2021 at 3:59 AM, Tigroou said:

After playing hours on aerobatics server, I observed many players who totally don’t care about the runway in use and they go direct to the closest threshold. Even with tail wind of 20/25 kts. 

 

  Presence or absence of any specific characteristic isn't going to fundamentally change player behavior. There isn't anything stopping people from doing that in real life either except it being safer/more conducive. You can fly like a rube in the real world, too, if you REALLY REALLY want to. Welcome to the internet and online gaming, 90% of the population outside hardcore clans are idiots. The sooner you get used to that, the sooner you'll have a good time.

 

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DCS doesn’t brings you the need to do so because there is no need to manage your brake temperature according to the kinetic energy you reach.

  Debatable, there's definitely various forms of tire and gear failure simulated already, although I think it varies a bit depending on aircraft. For example the Su-25T (after multiple tests comducted by myself and others) definitely does NOT overspeed/overheat tires (although at high speed you can definitely rip them off by ruddering too hard). More complex, fully simulated aircraft are much more likely to have such things. That said, it's going to be circumstantial, dependent on load and exactly how fast you're going. 

 

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Wish:

calculate your Emergency and Normal braking ground speed according to T/O and LDG weight.

 

  You can already do that if you want.

 

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Players who will need to wait for 100kts (exemple) before engaging break action not to have the gear melting at the end of runway would give a real need of accuracy and make landing a new challenge in accuracy.

  

  This will never even be a factor unless you're grossly overweight and/or grossly overspeeding. Planes routinely land at higher speeds than that, and in my personal experiences with airliners, they pretty much immediately apply brakes. You're not going to ''melt the gear'' routinely by being a bit fast/heavy. It's just not going to change as much as you seem to think it will. Landing isn't THAT hard.

 

 I'm all for improving simulation, but this isn't THAT big of an influence, certainly not enough to stop people from doing stupid stuff just because they can. If you don't want to deal with public server behaviors, don't play on public servers.

Edited January 23, 2021 by zhukov032186

[Tigroou]

I m sorry Zhukov for misunderstanding or maybe my english isn’t that clear.

I don’t complain at all with public server, that’s really fun to see guys trying things because they just try and that’s just a game!

I say players do things and create procedure because it’s no factor, or it works. I just noticed that if you have the need to be accurate, it’s gonna be a better and more realistic challenge. 
I never tried aircraft with reversed thrust capability, but they are really different to land from a fighter. 
Just an exemple: 

first real T/O with a modern twin engine fighter, I had an AB failure on right engine at 80kts (normal acceleration check like V1 for you). Aborting T/O is a reflex under 10% lack of acceleration. Time to read and pull full Idle on throttle, 2 seconds more. Time for the 2 engines to be physically from full AB to Idle after command of throttle, few seconds (very long, not the good value;)I would have some problem to write this here ). Speed reached: around 130+ kts. At my T/O weight I had to wait for around 110kts without aerodynamic braking to be under Normal energy for the brake and avoid fire on them at the end. During deceleration you have a Gx displayed on the Hud and have to pilot it (so you can’t be full brake or you risk to blow a tyre and make a runway exit... so eject..).

We had a few hundred meters left before arresting gear and deceleration was really a long time psychologically speaking... 

during debrief we took a long time to calculate what would have happened if reducing not immediately. 

that day, it was a medium configuration (air to air) and cold time. 
In France we have 2 different types of arresting gear on runway (barrier and cable) and for fighters, landing on an airfield without those safety options are really considered higher risk. 
Military aircraft, especially older one have not at all same margin as liner. I know public transportation is way safer.
On fighter training course, if you make long or kiss landing, it’s considered as safety issue (as a kiss would be runway length loss).

I m REALLY scared when I fly in an airliner because I was trained this way and i don’t exactly know aircraft behavior when in a cargo of a big airliner. 

So I shit in my pants at each landing in an airliner, because instinctively I see sometime 600 meters of runway behind us before touchdown. 
Doing this with a normal loaded fighter with 15 kts more... you will gain a nice MB Tie... 

Perhaps F18, US, or Russian fighters are stronger on this side... but as i remember, friends on F16 had same types of issues.

T/O and Landing Fighter has not to be considered a routine. 
For Carrier operations weight and speed are even more important than on land airbase.
I won’t speak of formation T/O or landing which are always sensitive moments in terms of whatif and a wingman who announce few seconds too late « speed down » is a real problem for its leader.

As you said it’s not that hard to land, but you have not a lot of margin definitely. 
 

I m not at all a hardcore simmer as i play Dcs for fun, and this sim makes me confident for my retirement in a few years. 
but it’s a strong knowledge sharing mean for our passion, so let’s try to have the best!
and I love public server as I ´m very bad on many systems in DCS  especially at configuring my hotas on unknown aircraft... 
 

[Mars Exulte]

37 minutes ago, Tigroou said:

I never tried aircraft with reversed thrust capability, but they are really different to land from a fighter. 

 

    All good, I may have misunderstood your intent, as well. Regardless...

 

  Related to above, if you didn't know this, the Viggen in DCS has reverse thrust capability. As for ''being really different'', as I recall there's a criteria for whether they use brakes or thrust reversers on an airliner, but I don't remember exactly what it was now. Obviously brakes won't work as well on a wet/slick surface, so it may be mostly that, but I've landed as a passenger and observed both being used at different times.

[Tigroou]

Many conflicts come from a communication miss, that’s Crew Ressource Management Basics;) 

indeed for Tornado or Viggen that’s less a problem but they are quite heavy fighters however. 
All aircraft have descent rate limitation for touchdown according to there landing weight, it’s structural protection to be in those limitations. And not twist an aircraft after 100 hours... it means you can’t make same approach for a 4-GBU10 F16 landing than a winchester/clean one... 
Braking action on icy or damp runway are another parameter and it will take longer to dissipate energy, so increase the stop distance basically but not overheating brakes. (+dyssimetrical braking)

As this subject is really interesting in my opinion, i ll give a last exemple:

on a Mirage 2000C or alphajet if you have to « engage » arresting barrier, you wont be able to evacuate the aircraft by your own when in the wires. Because of the pressure of those wires on the cockpit after the stop. You have to wait for the rescue team to disengage the canopy. It’s the same barrier type as on aircraft carrier, it takes the front of the aircraft at runway end. 
in fact if you open the canopy and a wire comes off its position, it would behead you, that’s a major risk. 
So if you engaged this barrier, it means you were end of runway with a strong energy/speed for any reason. It means as well probably you used a lot your brakes, and above emergency possible energy of the brake to absorb. 
This conduct mostly to a fire on your aircraft whereas you risk to be beheaded if you exit without rescue team. 
it’s just to illustrate how fast and bad situations can become if you miss a parameter in real life. 
 

Finally, in DCS, aerodynamic braking (keeping nose up on touchdown) is really well simulated and that’s a mandatory technic for fighters to wait for the good speed to let your nose wheel touch down and then optimize/shorten your braking time.
In a liner they don’t use that much this manoeuver as it is just for comfort. Efficiency comes from reverse, but you need to be 3 gears on ground to use it.

moreover Cx of airliner are larger than a 0 degree AOA fighter ( A10 is NOT a fighter, but i really love it too )
That’s so good to make this in VR in DCS, visual reference you take are really impressive, and realistics. 
I think many people would be pleased to learn indepth landing technics adapted to their specific module. It’s a game in the game
 

hope this was interesting for you and not offensive, not the case at all. 

if someone with experience on other fighters could report bad landing experience, I would be pleased to read them.

My last fighters flights are 10 years old now so maybe i forgot some important details... 
 

regards