How much throttle are we supposed to use in the A10CII?

[melchionda]

I usually fly the A10C with the Throttles up against the "detent".  (I have a Thrustmaster Warthog Throttle so I have an actual detent.)  I thought that with the throttles up against the detent I was in Mil Power for the A10C.  I usually only go beyond the detent (which on other jets would be afterburner) when taking off or when I need to make haste out of a dicey situation.  It's my understanding that the A10 doesn't have an afterburner. So aside from using a little more fuel is it bad to fly for long periods of time in that area beyond the detent?  Like could it cause overheating or some other engine damage?

 

Edited January 19, 2021 by melchionda

[Jetguy06]

No detent needed. You really only need full power (what would be afterburner in other fighters) when taking off or during high-g maneuvers, such as defending against a missile. Most other times you should be spending most of your flight time in the area around where your detent is.

 

Bear in mind that you really shouldn't "place and forget" the throttles in any regime of flight. Flying an aircraft is going to require adjusting the throttles constantly. There will be times when you need the extra power of full thrust, but other times where lower throttle settings are better called for, mainly for fuel consumption purposes. Flying around all day at high throttle settings will mean your range and/or time on station will suffer drastically.

 

Rather than thinking in terms of physical throttle position, I would suggest to focus more on airspeed instead. Bear in mind that loading your jet up as if you're a one-man army will severely decrease aircraft performance, especially if you take up TERs. My typical default loadout in the A-10CII is 2x AGM-65Ls, 2x GBU-54s on stations 4 and 8 (sometimes 4x on 4, 5, 7, and 8), TGP on station 10, APKWS on station 2, and 2x AIM-9Ms on station 11, with an ALQ-184 on station 1. The pod and 'winders can be left behind if there is little or no air or SAM threat. With this loadout, I have no problems with performance and fuel consumption.

[Ballinger French]

I assume the fuel control units on the A-10 are somewhat analogous to FADEC in civilian airliners in that engine power is electronically 'tuned' to deliver a specific performance value without overboosting the engines?   But does MAX throttle setting on the real A-10 nevertheless have a time limit like MIL power does on afterburning jet engines?   

[Jetguy06]

14 minutes ago, Ballinger French said:

I assume the fuel control units on the A-10 are somewhat analogous to FADEC in civilian airliners in that engine power is electronically 'tuned' to deliver a specific performance value without overboosting the engines?   But does MAX throttle setting on the real A-10 nevertheless have a time limit like MIL power does on afterburning jet engines?   

Start at 19:59. The A-10's engines are analog-controlled, not digital.

 

AFAIK, no, the engines in the A-10 don't have a "time limit." They seem to run fine on max power for extended periods, but I'm really only guessing here, as I don't usually fly at max power for very long. As I said above, you really don't want to fly in max power except for takeoff and evasive maneuvering, neither of which will last very long.

[Thump]

You can keep them plugged at max indefinitely in DCS (and my guess in IRL as well).  It's all a matter of what you want to do as the A-10 is pretty good on fuel consumption even at max power.  

[SJBMX]

Depends on how far away the target area is, how long I'm expected to loiter, and what my initial fuel state was. If my arrival isn't time critical, I'll usually throttle down to the most efficient airspeed/fuel flow/AOA. Same for if I'm orbiting and spotting targets, unless there's a reason to keep the speed up.

Edited January 19, 2021 by SJBMX

[LeCuvier]

As far as I read ages ago, the A-10C does not let you use the full power the engine could deliver. Therefore is no need to worry about overheating the engine. You need all the power you can get in order to climb to safe altitude with a fully loaded hog. And if you are traveling to a target area where ground troops need help, there is every reason to go at max thrust. If you are in a "searching for target" or "waiting for tASK2 mode you obviously want to reduce speed, but not too much. For if you have to run because a Mig is uncomfortably close or a SAM site has locked you, you will find that there is not a lot of acceleration. If you started the mission with full tanks you can spend lots of time in the air so that has never been a worry to me.

[jasonbirder]

I was tempted to jokingly put "Throttle Settings in the A10C" isn't it just Off (Idle) and On (Buster)" but that wouldn't be very helpful! 

I do tend to fly "Buster" (Max military power) in all tactical situations and depending on Loadout/Altitude etc cruise/orbit at between ITT650 and ITT 700 - not sure how that relates to real life Ops.

You can "overpower" the engines with the "Override switch" which sits just below your Left knuckle on a  Warthog Throttle...it gives you 5-6% extra power for emergency situations...I reserve its use to when flying on One Engine.

Edited January 19, 2021 by jasonbirder

[paulw10]

With the Warthog HOTAS Throttle and the detent enabled I remapped the throttle. I tend to jump in and out of the A-10 and F/A-18, so wanted a setup that worked for both. 

 

[Yurgon]

6 hours ago, jasonbirder said:

You can "overpower" the engines with the "Override switch" which sits just below your Left knuckle on a  Warthog Throttle...it gives you 5-6% extra power for emergency situations...I reserve its use to when flying on One Engine.

 

That's what it should do, but what I'm observing in the old A-10C (Instant Action Caucasus Free Flight) is maybe a 0.5 % increase in fuel flow and RPM at full throttle.

 

In the A-10C II (also Instant Action Caucasus Free Flight), I see absolutely no reaction in the EMI needles; however, this mission is set in the winter, so there's a chance the outside conditions have an additional impact.

 

In either case, this has long been reported, but so far we haven't seen the issue of the fuel override switches doing basically nothing addressed.

[Bulldog_1]

Speed Is Life.

[jasonbirder]

3 hours ago, Yurgon said:

 

That's what it should do, but what I'm observing in the old A-10C (Instant Action Caucasus Free Flight) is maybe a 0.5 % increase in fuel flow and RPM at full throttle.

 

In the A-10C II (also Instant Action Caucasus Free Flight), I see absolutely no reaction in the EMI needles; however, this mission is set in the winter, so there's a chance the outside conditions have an additional impact.

 

In either case, this has long been reported, but so far we haven't seen the issue of the fuel override switches doing basically nothing addressed.

Ahhh interesting - I'll try that out - thanks!

[ASAP]

There is no penalty for being in max power aside from less loiter time, which means less time to help the guys on the ground. The A-10C engines can be in max from takeoff to slowing to configure and it wont do any damage to the airplane.

Good rules of thumb:

For take off, and climbout power should be parked in max the entire time, unless you're in a formation. If you're in a formation lead should pull the throttles a bit to give 2 an energy advantage

in cruise you'll generally be around 250kts. leave it in max when you level off until you accelerate to 250 then 1800 lbs per engine is a good starting point for that

in the hold while you're finding targets and stuff 1500 lbs per engine is a good compromise for endurance, and not getting too slow

when you push in to the target especially if you're low altitude you'll want to be in max power to get all the smash you can, during diving deliveries you'll probably want to crack the power back if not pull it to idle while you're diving at the ground. Plug it back in max when you're climbing back out

for BFM plug power in max and take your left hand off the throttle

 

[Diesel_Thunder]

Your AoA gauge (to the left of the HSI) comes in real handy for times when you don’t need max power. There are three bands marked off on that gauge for quick reference. 
 

The first is at 15-16 units AoA meant for efficient cruising (maximum distance). 
 

The 17-18 band is for maximum endurance (loiter time).

 

The 19-21 band is for approach and landing.

 

[Ozone42]

Anyone know if the the real A-10C throttle has a detent or not?

[jaylw314]

12 minutes ago, Ozone42 said:

Anyone know if the the real A-10C throttle has a detent or not?

No, just hard stops at OFF, IDLE and MAX (AFAIK you need to lift the throttle handle to move from OFF to IDLE, or IDLE to OFF).

I have a Winwing Orion which has an afterburner detent at 80%.  I just adjust the axes so that they reach 100% at that detent, I don't want the detent messing up throttle movements in formation or aerial refueling.

Edited May 23, 2022 by jaylw314

[Ozone42]

1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:

No, just hard stops at OFF, IDLE and MAX (AFAIK you need to lift the throttle handle to move from OFF to IDLE, or IDLE to OFF).

I have a Winwing Orion which has an afterburner detent at 80%.  I just adjust the axes so that they reach 100% at that detent, I don't want the detent messing up throttle movements in formation or aerial refueling.

 

Thanks for the reply! Do you have any reference to this, specifically that at the high end there is no detent like when going to from military power to full throttle? That's how I thought it was, but can't really find any info on it.

I have both the Thrustmaster Warthog and the Winwing F-18 Super Taurus. I currently have a detent installed on the Thrustmaster, but considering to remove it, since I only use it when flying the A-10C.

[jaylw314]

There's an A-10C flight manual from 2012 that has a specific description of the throttle and does not mention a detent, but does refer to the hard stops.  I don't want to quote it or post a link since it's not for public release, but if you ask the Google lady it's not too hard to find.

[Yurgon]

1 hour ago, Ozone42 said:

Do you have any reference to this, specifically that at the high end there is no detent like when going to from military power to full throttle?

Let's look at it from this perspective: What would such a detent do?

We already have the fuel flow override switches right next to the throttle that allow for increased fuel flow and thus slightly increased thrust (which never did much in DCS, unless it's secretly been fixed since I last checked).

Since the TF-34 in the A-10 isn't an afterburning engine, there doesn't seem to be good use for a detent between high power and max power.

Without quoting any documentation, let me just say that in reading books, listening to interviews and reading on these forums, I have never, ever come across a single mention of there being a detent in the A-10 throttles, besides the OFF, IDLE and MAX stops.

[ASAP]

Like Yurgon said there is no reason to put a detent in a warthog throttle  since there is no afterburner. The warthog routinely uses the full throttle range and there is no big penalty to being in max. You can park it there for the whole flight and the jet will be just fine. It burns more fuel but it’s not exponentially more like an afterburner would. 
 

About those fuel flow override switches. First, they don’t seem to be modeled. second, they are NOT used for times when you feel the need for speed. They shut off the system that is metering fuel flow to the engines in order to keep them within operating limits. Turning them off MIGHT give you a few percent more thrust, (might not based on atmospheric conditions) and WILL over temp the engines if you’re in max power. It’s for emergency use only like if you lose an engine on takeoff when you’re low slow and even after jettisoning your stores you still can’t climb away from the ground and you are willing to overtemp an engine to save the airplane. 

[Dragon1-1]

I unscrewed the AB detent from my Orion 2 for flying the Hog. It's so slow that you're going to spend most of your time at max power.  Except while cruising, holding or flying formation, of course, since then you may want to go a little slower. There's no penalty for going full throttle and it doesn't even put a whole lot of wear on the engines. In combat, it's best to keep it at max unless in a dive. 

[Yurgon]

4 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

It's so slow that you're going to spend most of your time at max power.

I'd say that's a DSC-ism. You're right, in DCS there's no penalty.

IRL, flights are planned a little more extensively than "go there and blow everything up, then RTB if you can or quit if you don't".

Making a time on target, checking in with agencies at specific points at specific times, following visual and instrument procedures and rules, having weapons impact at specific times, and like you said formation flying and holdings are all examples where max power is usually not the answer. And IRL, A-10s fly some kind of formation basically all the time.

I once flew wing with a guy I didn't know, and it took me 10 or 15 minutes just to catch up after takeoff. Sure, I could have asked him to slow down a bit. But the interesting part was that he didn't bother to look for me, or give me any chance to get in formation quickly. I'm sure he was coming from this school of "it's a game, go full throttle, there's no downside", which was one of the reasons we didn't succeed as a team.

So I'd say: It depends. As a rule of thumb, I wouldn't advise to just slam full throttle and forget about it. Moving an aircraft in 4 dimensions (time being the 4th) takes a bit of practice, and moving several aircraft in 4 dimensions takes even more practice. There's no downside to starting early with the training and trying to meet specific timings in a flight. In fact, I'd say everyone who even tries to do this, whether he succeeds or not, is already going to be a better pilot.

[Dragon1-1]

1 hour ago, Yurgon said:

Making a time on target, checking in with agencies at specific points at specific times, following visual and instrument procedures and rules, having weapons impact at specific times, and like you said formation flying and holdings are all examples where max power is usually not the answer. And IRL, A-10s fly some kind of formation basically all the time.

Actually, most of the time you'll be in a loose formation where going full throttle during cruise is not a bad idea. You usually do need to make a specific TOT, but then, you'd usually need to be at or near full throttle in order to do so. It's far easier to lose time in a jet than it is to make it up. And in combat, you really do need all the power you can get, except when you're in a dive, because you'll be actively maneuvering pretty much all the time to avoid getting peppered by flak, because you're neither fast nor fly very high, making you a juicy target. The A-10 isn't typically used for strikes, where you do need to time your weapon impacts. Mostly, it does CAS, and goes in and out at JTAC's discretion, with less need for precise timings, as long as you're on station when you're needed. 

Again, the A-10 does not have very much excess power. It generally cruises at high throttle settings, fights at max throttle and takes off at max, too. You can pull back slightly during the climb to let the wingman saddle up. When 300kts is just about the most you can do at medium altitutdes, and at 180 you have to start dropping flaps, you just don't have that many other options with regards to setting your power. 

[Yurgon]

42 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Actually, most of the time you'll be in a loose formation where going full throttle during cruise is not a bad idea.

Loose formation or not, when lead is at full throttle, the wingman has absolutely no chance at all to get into position in the first place, and will struggle to stay in formation even under optimal circumstances. Add maybe a gentle turn away from the wingman and that's it, element integrity is gone. The wingman might be able to keep lead in sight, but when the wingman is lagging two miles behind, lead can't cover him and the formation has lost mutual support.

I'm not saying the A-10 doesn't use high power settings. But full throttle, to the very best of my knowledge, is a no-no for any kind of formation flying as far as the lead's throttle setting is concerned.

42 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

You usually do need to make a specific TOT, but then, you'd usually need to be at or near full throttle in order to do so.

Well that really depends on the flight planning, doesn't it? When the flight plan says to make the route near max achievable speed, yeah, then full throttle might be required. Of course as long as the pilots can provide any input at all, there's always a chance to take off 5 or 10 or 20 minutes sooner and make it a couple of relaxed legs to be able to meet the required TOT, with some power and time to spare in case of delays.

42 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

And in combat, you really do need all the power you can get, except when you're in a dive, because you'll be actively maneuvering pretty much all the time to avoid getting peppered by flak, because you're neither fast nor fly very high, making you a juicy target.

That depends on the kind of combat we're talking about. And to that point:

42 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Mostly, it does CAS, and goes in and out at JTAC's discretion, with less need for precise timings, as long as you're on station when you're needed.

That doesn't sound like avoiding flak and maneuvering like a madman, using every ounce of available engine power just to be able to survive.

And working with JTACs can also mean that weapon impacts are required at a precise time, down to the second in extreme cases. Good luck positioning the jet in such a way that the pilot can achieve that impact time when the jet is at full throttle all the time already.

42 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

It generally cruises at high throttle settings

Yup, I agree. But when lead is around 700° ITT, the wingman has some throttle to play with and stay in formation, while lead doesn't fall out of the sky. It may not sound or feel like much of a difference, but there certainly is a difference between a high throttle setting and maximum.

42 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

When 300kts is just about the most you can do at medium altitutdes, and at 180 you have to start dropping flaps, you just don't have that many other options with regards to setting your power. 

I tend to disagree, if I understand correctly that your point is "it's either max or too little, so let's go with max". There is definitely room between those two options, and my point is that pilots use this room to make their flight plan, on time, while also allowing their wingmen good station keeping and maintaining mutual support.

Edited May 24, 2022 by Yurgon

[ASAP]

Like everything, it depends. (but the A-10 still doesn't have or need a detent in the throttle).

7 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Actually, most of the time you'll be in a loose formation where going full throttle during cruise is not a bad idea. You usually do need to make a specific TOT, but then, you'd usually need to be at or near full throttle in order to do so.

Sort of.. In a tactical formation there's no reason #1 can't go max power, but he does run the risk of getting #2 stripped (out of the commanded formation position and unable to fix it quickly with power). It's 2's job to stay in formation, if he can't keep up he should call "Stripped", at which point 1 should pull the throttles back to allow 2 to saddle up, once 2 calls saddled 1 can accelerate or set a speed. The problem isn't that the A-10 is slow--two A-10's with similar loadouts should be able to hold similar airspeeds--the problem is that it is slow to accelerate. If one throws the throttles into max without saying anything 2 will fall aft and even though he can match speed he wont be able to make up the ground he lost while 1 was accelerating away from him. Easy fix for that is a little bit of wingman consideration from the flight lead. Comm for that could be something like: "1's buster" indicating he's going max power and then delay actually putting the throttles in max. 2 should check throttles to max and start accelerating. After a delay of a couple of seconds 1 can set his throttles to max. The extra few seconds allows the wingman to accelerate and give him a power advantage so he doesn't get left in the dust

If you have a specific check in time with a JTAC you would mission plan and make sure you takeoff on time to make that time without having to be in max the entire time. It is easier to slow down than speed up like you said, but if your plan involves being in max power the whole time to make it you have no wiggle room for contengencies.

7 hours ago, Yurgon said:

Loose formation or not, when lead is at full throttle, the wingman has absolutely no chance at all to get into position in the first place, and will struggle to stay in formation even under optimal circumstances. Add maybe a gentle turn away from the wingman and that's it, element integrity is gone. The wingman might be able to keep lead in sight, but when the wingman is lagging two miles behind, lead can't cover him and the formation has lost mutual support.

I'm not saying the A-10 doesn't use high power settings. But full throttle, to the very best of my knowledge, is a no-no for any kind of formation flying as far as the lead's throttle setting is concerned.

Like I said, 1 can be in max power. BUT if he doesn't suck at leading a flight he has to think about how 2, 3, and 4 can stay in the formation position he wants him in. He has to give them some kind of turn so 2 can pull lead and slide into position or hold the throttle back until 2 is saddled and ready, etc... Also when talking about tactical formations being 2 miles away can still be in a formation. Its actually easier to look through your flight lead into the target area and provide mutual support from further away in a lot of circumstances.

 

7 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

And in combat, you really do need all the power you can get, except when you're in a dive, because you'll be actively maneuvering pretty much all the time to avoid getting peppered by flak, because you're neither fast nor fly very high, making you a juicy target.

I'd suggest you stop holding over AAA and SAMs lol.  Find a safe hold where you can receive and think through a 9 line and plan out your attack. This is the part of the fight where you should have your throttles "stood up" and you should be saving gas. Being in max here is only decreasing the time you get to support the guys on the ground by burning more gas than necessary. Save max for ingressing and egressing the target.

 

7 hours ago, Yurgon said:

Yup, I agree. But when lead is around 700° ITT, the wingman has some throttle to play with and stay in formation, while lead doesn't fall out of the sky. It may not sound or feel like much of a difference, but there certainly is a difference between a high throttle setting and maximum.

You hit the nail on the head. 2 should have an energy advantage so he can hold on. Most the time that means he needs some slop in the throttles so he can set a higher power setting, BUT sometimes this could also mean geometry. A smart wingman should also use altitude (i.e start diving to gain airspeed or climbing to trade excess airspeed for altitude) or use cut off and pull a ton of lead in turns to fix line and spacing. There's lots of ways to solve formation positions as long as 1 isn't just driving straight ahead at max power. This requires some kind of contract between the flight lead and the formation "I will set XXXX fuel flow in the hold", or "I will climb out at 700 ITT," "in the hold fly 220 kts", or even "on ingress I'll be max, 2 use geometry and smart wingmanship to stay in postion" This is why fighter pilots have lengthy briefings before every flight.

(rant) since we are talking about formation flying and throttle settings..... In persian freedom mission 3 where flight lead tells you to get in (super non-tactical) fingertip formation and then flies cross country at 180 knots is the exact opposite problem which irritates me to no end. There's no reason to put yourself on the backside of the power curve like that especially in a combat zone, and it's more difficult to hold perfect formation at low airspeeds and low throttle settings like that anyway. You pretty much have to drop flaps mvr so you can keep your throttles mid range where you want them to be in fintertip formation. (end rant)