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Please advice at refueling struggling


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This is I managed to put together after 5 or 6 six hoursk of practicing. Would you please look at video - it is trimmed only to about a minute length and give me some advices, how to finally catch this son of a basket... 🙂
I try about ten times per flight and then I give up...

 

 

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Did you call ready pre-contact and did the tanker clear you to contact? In Single player the tanker will always have the drogues deployed, but you won't be able to actually connect until you've gone through the radio procedures.

 

Otherwise, approach the basket slower, and try to focus on where you are in relation to the tanker, not the basket. Focusing only on the basket tends to cause pilot induced oscillations (the porpoising up and down)

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Try to approach the basket slower, you seem doing rather good, except that you lose speed control just before connecting. If you try to get in too fast, everything becomes more difficoult.

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I don't know what throttle you're using, but if you're using a warthog I highly recommend you put some curves on your throttle.  It sounded crazy to me when I first heard about it, but it helped me tremendously. 

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25 minutes ago, GoodHope said:

I don't know what throttle you're using, but if you're using a warthog I highly recommend you put some curves on your throttle.  It sounded crazy to me when I first heard about it, but it helped me tremendously. 

 

 

Any new curves for the warthog since last update when the -14 A was added?  Mine from before are just not right

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That last one you were not cleared to the basket, the probe went straight through.  If you fall too far back or get too far out of position the tanker will declare "return to pre contact".  This probably happened before the sequence you recorded.

 

Settle back in and call pre-contact again.  The approach you made would have contacted.

 

You're pretty much there already.  Just need to work the throttle a bit more and avoid those big movements (there was only one big lunge in that approach).


Edited by Wavehopper
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This is what I'm using, but I fly the F/A-18 so YYMV.  Not 100% satisfied, but they're a helluva lot better than they were before.

 

0 | 5 | 11| 25 | 35 | 42 | 49 | 56 | 64 | 75 | 100

 

X Saturation = 98

 


Edited by GoodHope
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1 hour ago, randomTOTEN said:

I think I would shift my view up so that the tanker occupies more screen space.

Spot on advice.  I was struggling like mad until I found that moving my seat down (Cockpit views ) made all the difference.  I move the view down so the HUD waterline is just about touching the cowl......I hold this view all the way in. 

loweredseat.JPG

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The S-3s seem to have a glitch that the basket will appear deployed, a phantom.  Cycling the radio process seems to fix this, 'abort contact'  then start over.  Otherwise I do this:

WINGS: Bomb mode

PROBE: OUT

Exterior Lights: ON

JESTER OFF: menu 8,2

Popups and message windows off.

Slump down in the seat and lower the seat (especially with the S-3)

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I wouldn't think a change in seat height is required, just tilt the view up more. You loose view of the instruments but they're really not important at this point. You want a good look at the tanker. The real pilot would probably either be shifting his eyes up, or tilting his head up to see it better. Yes the canopy bow is a restriction but that's part of the aircraft design. I don't think it would be useful to slouch in the seat to see it.


Edited by randomTOTEN
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Thanks for all the tips. I definitely didn't know that you have to initiate pre contact, if you fall back to much...
For controls I have Thrustmaster T1600m flight pack.  I'll incorporate all advices here, especially about shifting views and report back here after a while...

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Hi blokovchan I also had had a lot of truble to refuel than, with a lot of practice and with some tips, I finally became able to perform refuel. The tips are:

  • wings in bombe mode
  • trim to mantain a good altitude stability compared to the tanker
  • adjust your seat (lower it) to see the Tanker well
  • watch the tanker speed and memorize it; than call your IAS in the cockpit (i think the default button is CTRL + Y) and go to catch the basket with 2 kts of speed advantage (that will stabilize your approach to the basket)
  • when you get the basket, to mantain the linking, climb some feet and watch the pod connected to the basket and with your periferical view watch the tanker to match its speed and make adjusment to mantain the contact
  • I find usefull to use the speed brake with hotas button to open it for a fraction of second and close it immediatly to reach the disered speed before contact and to mantain the speed when linked to the basket  

Good luck

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A couple of cents:

 

- your throttle-movements are way too coarse and your closure/ overtake rate is way too high

- try to get stable behind the tanker at close distance first and then, slowly (1-2kt overtake) get closer to the basket

- don't stab for the drogue, but fly sight-picture onto the pod*

- lowering the seat might help, but so does leaning down/ forward with trackIR or in VR

- I use the cruise-HUD, because it gives me the heading-carrot which you can use as a reference to the hose-pod on the tanker

- I have my wings in auto

 

You might want to take a step back from trying to plug in and just do what tanking at the bottom line is all about: Fly formation.

 

A good way to get used to that is intercepting a friendly Tu-95 (for immersion-reasons) and fly formation with him. Don't just hang on the wing, but change your formation-position. Try to put the airplane where you want to and stay there for some time, then change position and distance. Repeat this process several times. You'll see that your control- and throttle-movements will get a lot smoother and finer that way. Do this first and then try to hit the tanker.

 

After flying in formation with that Bear for half an hour, the tanking-process will slip into the background, and for your mind it's just another formation-joinup.

 

Slow is steady, steady is smooth and smooth is fast.

___

* That puts the basket in a position, where you'll hit it with the pobe. But don't look there; look for the pod. Jester will tell you left/ right etc. Don't switch him off, as he'll give you the fuel-states once hanging on.

 

 

 


Edited by Bremspropeller
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Lots of good advice here. A few bullet points I typically give people are:

 

- You need to be relaxed. If you're not in a zen like state, it won't happen. When you feel you're tensing up, you need to actively relax yourself. A death grip on the stick isn't helping. You're looking more for the Two-Finger-Control type of grip.

- Your wings are in bomb mode, that is good. Makes it more stable. But your roll axis will be more sensitive.

- Watch your closure. Your throttle adjustments are too big. Don't get impatient.

- Park yourself about 5-10 feet away from the basket and stabilize. If you're not stable, do not continue. Getting a lucky jab is not how you do it. You may hit the basket, but you still have to stay in the basket. Most people that say "I can connect but not maintain the connection" are people that jab and then don't know how to deal with excessive closure or lateral/vertical movement.

- You can look at either the pod and put it in some position that works for you or you can look at the basket. It may be easier to start with the pod method, but personally I feel there is no difference. In the end, I started looking at the basket because that's just simpler. The refueling probe is an extension of your mind. Once you figure out how it moves in relation to your stick movements, it's not a big deal and in the long run probably more consistent.

- Once you are connected, stop looking at the basket. At that point you are flying formation. Maintain a general position rather than being perfect. Don't stress out if you are slightly left or right, it's a hose, they're flexible.

- And again, because it is that important: Relax. Trust me.  This is your biggest obstacle. When your shoulders ache, that's a bad sign. It means you are constantly tensing up your muscles. Tense muscles do not work for fine control. If you tense up, either step back and take a break or... like I did, fight through it for an hour. It hurts like hell, but at some point it will just click (most likely the next session) and you'll be surprised at how much easier it is. Your body doesn't understand this. This is a prime example of mind over matter. Zen is the key. You may want to get someone to chat with you about random stuff, it helps some people to get into the zone if they're slightly distracted.


Edited by Slant
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I'll share "the trick" I found on YouTube: put the 30 on the hose. 🙂 Specifically, enter the AA HUD mode, and try to place the right "30" on the side of the pitch ladder right on the hose. It'll get your probe in the basket. After you plug, shift your reference to the gun cross. You want to aim just below and slightly to the left of the pod. Aiming directly for the pod works too, a slight offset to the right is not a problem.

 

Also, trim. Wings to bomb, then get into observation position, and trim. You want to be able to fly, for brief periods, a "hands-off" formation on the tanker's wing before you start trying to connect. Once in trim for the speed and altitude, don't touch the hat again until you're done refuelling.

 

Other than that, what others have said. You don't need throttle or stick curves, but you do need to make gentle, precise adjustments. "Two-finger control" might be the thing on the Warthog, but I fly with a CH Fighterstick which requires quite large, rapid movements to make this kind of adjustments (I have a slight deadzone, so that's probably why). Each stick will be different in that regard. For the throttle, the Tomcat responds really well in the throttle range that you'll be in. Slight, frequent adjustments. If you can see the light on the pod, you want it steady green. The hardest part is not getting too close or too far.


Edited by Dragon1-1
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On 1/19/2021 at 7:26 AM, Dragon1-1 said:

Other than that, what others have said. You don't need throttle or stick curves, but you do need to make gentle, precise adjustments.

 

 

People need what works best for them.  For me the curves have helped, for others maybe not, but that's for them to decide.  I would never say someone "needs" to have curves, but I wouldn't tell them they don't because I can't possibly know what would be best for their setup.  Gentle and precise adjustments are one of the keys, and the curves have helped me with that.

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Honestly, my AAR improved instantly and immensely through buying (and occasionally building) the "proper tools". Cause believe it or not, ergonomics, senses and feel count for something. 

 

Index VR headset to give you depth perception and the true size of objects like the tanker, a stick extension to give me more precise control over the control surfaces, a good pair of rudders (instead of a twist stick) to help line up and keep the sight picture just right. A Jetseat that helps me fly by feel if I ever have to take my eyes away from flying visually to look down at my instruments for a second or two. (without it, if I look down for a moment, there was a good chance I would look back up and find that I disconnected and the tanker was now either 100 feet above or below me cause I didn't feel the aircraft pulling up or down.)

 

And I had to build a desk mount out of a c-clamp, L-brackets and wood to get the throttle quadrant at a comfortable, easily reachable position, a wood stand so the base of the center stick w/extension is at the right height so that I'm controlling the stick comfortably and the rudder pedals screwed down to a sheet of plank wood so that it's not slipping and moving around as I push on the pedals to use it. 

 

I'm posting this because while yes, practice and experience will get you far, there are other (admittedly more expensive) ways to improve your AAR.


Edited by WelshZeCorgi
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