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Heatblur F-4 Phantom


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11 minutes ago, Uxi said:

Same with a Vietnam map for F-4 along with an appropriate model of MiG-21 (PFL?).  

DCS: Vietnam is.. uuhh... a little bit of a pipe dream. It would be cool but there are hurdles... Map needs to be HUGE beyond anything in DCS so far. Apart from size though, detail might also be a big problem, Vietnam was a war mostly fought in dense jungles and even sprawling cities. 

 

Also there is very, very little era appropriate content. The F-4 that was coming, was way beyond Vietnam, and it frankly fits better with what is in DCS right now. When we get an F-4, it will probably (and hopefully) be a mid-70s or even 80s bird.

 

Besides, it is so long of a conflict, aircraft later in the war were almost a generational leap ahead of those fought the most of it earlier, so what version to make even for Vietnam scenario etc. Then, the aircraft immediately after were also a lot more advanced and capable in many ways, mainly in things like RWRs, look down capability, missiles that actually work etc.

 

The only really Vietnam fit aircraft in development is F-8J from Leatherneck. UH-1H is close enough too. MiG-19P is the wrong version, but arguably close enough as well. A-7E may perhaps be Vietnam version but probably it will be post war too. From here on, nothing we have in sim, or have coming in future is appropriate for Vietnam War. F-5E, MiG-21Bis, A-6E will most likely be TRAM at least. Well, there is A-4E too of course, but being a community mod its public multiplayer and payware campaign relevance will probably be less than ideal.

 

I'd prefer more 75-80s, or up to early 90s stuff as we have a decent bit in sim from that period, so they can be more coherent with/against each other. For older jets, from 60s to 75, I'd actually prefer jets that were relevant to wars in Middle East, as we have relatively feasible existing maps for those.

 

In my opinion, if we get a Vietnam appropriate F-4 in DCS, it should be the second F-4 version in it, not the only one.

 

A later F-4E can fill in a lot of spots both as blufor or redfor, and can work for 70s-80s-and at a stretch even early 90s scenarios. And even in purely fictional scenarios should mix in nicely with likes of Viggen (even if somewhat upgraded), F-5E, MiG-21Bis, MiG-23MLA, A-7E, A-6E etc, time period and relative performance wise.

 

Still though... I am happy for DCS not going the "stick with a scenario" approach. I want odd, unsung aircraft done to DCS quality... stuff like Viggen, Draken, EE Lightning, Super Tucano etc would be impossible if DCS would do like sims of past and stick to a scenario or two. Don't get me wrong, I share the point of view that we should have a lot more modules that fit together, and I like how Razbam seem to be intending to handle Falklands map and fitting modules. I just wouldn't want it to be "exclusively things that fit to this, this, and this wars" kinda of deal, because I find fiddling with aircraft we never had in sims before to be a lot more interesting and enjoyable than roleplaying history.

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MiG-21Bis, Fw-190D, Bf-109K, P-51D, F-86F, Ka-50, UH-1H, Mi-8MTV2, Hawk T1A, C-101, FC3, A-10C, CA, Mirage 2000C, Gazelle, L-39, MiG-15Bis, F-5E, AJS 37 Viggen, Yak-52, Christen Eagle II, MiG-19, I-16, JF-17, F-14, F/A-18C, Fw-190A8, AV-8B/NA, Spitifre IX

 

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Hopefully HB's different F-14 variants becomes a thing in other modules,  though FWIW I'd envision an F-4 Vietnam in the 70s around Linebacker era, so already F-4N and F-4E. 

 

If they could include an F-4S and F-4G in those modules that would be great,  but if they were spun off that could work,  too. 

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There is a F-4 mod coming listed as a D but is shown operating from the carrier, so most likely a C, the A-7E and the F-4J actually saw combat in Vietnam albeit later in the war like 1971 and up, but having aircraft that served had earlier models serving in Vietnam would make a Vietnam map much more necessary even if we did have the correct versions of the Given aircraft 

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 3/11/2021 at 8:36 AM, aviation360 said:

There is a F-4 mod coming listed as a D but is shown operating from the carrier, so most likely a C

 

The only F-4 variants that operated from carriers were the F-4B,J, N, and S for the US, and the FG. 1 for the UK. If the F-4 is a C, D, E, F, or G, it was a land-based variant.

 

F-4Bs are easy to distinguish from Cs and early Ds by the wing thickness over the landing gear wells, the refueling probe door on the starboard side beneath the canopy, and the shape of the inner wing pylons. 

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On 4/16/2021 at 4:23 AM, dandan said:

F4, I will buy it

 

Anyone would. After the Tomcat it's probably one of the most iconic jets. And in my opinion HB are the only ones who'd do it justice. 

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On 4/28/2021 at 6:59 AM, Skysurfer said:

 

Anyone would. After the Tomcat it's probably one of the most iconic jets. And in my opinion HB are the only ones who'd do it justice. 

technically, any group could do it justice, it's just the sorta thing that most groups likely won't get the required access to do it justice. By that I mean access to archives and museums that will allow them to get all the data they need to make an accurate physical model and flight model.

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5 hours ago, Tank50us said:

technically, any group could do it justice, it's just the sorta thing that most groups likely won't get the required access to do it justice. By that I mean access to archives and museums that will allow them to get all the data they need to make an accurate physical model and flight model.


or access to aircrew . . We ain’t getting’ any younger! 👴

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13 hours ago, Tank50us said:

technically, any group could do it justice, it's just the sorta thing that most groups likely won't get the required access to do it justice. By that I mean access to archives and museums that will allow them to get all the data they need to make an accurate physical model and flight model.

 

I mean justice in terms of visual, system and flight model fidelity. No one comes close to HB in those aspects. 

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If HB were to do the Phantom, my dream would be an approach similar to the Tomcat where they make four distinct variants. Personally, the variants I would envision are:

 

1. US Navy/Marine Corps Vietnam-Era (F-4B)

2. USAF Vietnam-Era (F-4C/D)

3. US Navy/Marine Corps Post-Vietnam through ODS (F-4N/J/S)

4. USAF ODS (specifically, the F-4G Wild Weasel. I'd sell certain body parts for one of those.)

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23 minutes ago, Jetguy06 said:

If HB were to do the Phantom, my dream would be an approach similar to the Tomcat where they make four distinct variants. Personally, the variants I would envision are:

 

1. US Navy/Marine Corps Vietnam-Era (F-4B)

2. USAF Vietnam-Era (F-4C/D)

3. US Navy/Marine Corps Post-Vietnam through ODS (F-4N/J/S)

4. USAF ODS (specifically, the F-4G Wild Weasel. I'd sell certain body parts for one of those.)

 

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If HB elect to make a phantom, I’d be happier than if any other studio including ED took it, because I’m happy with how they’ve made JESTER behave in terms of the AI system. The phantom radar is simpler than the AWG-9, but that also makes it a little trickier to maintain locks, so expect a little more work on the pilot/RIO interaction to make it more effective.

Personally, as much as I’d rather see an F4J (it was used by the USN and USMC and even the RAF in limited numbers, so covers a range of services), it’s more likely I think we’d see an F4E in DCS first. It was far more widely exported, has a gun for all the folks that like their WVR and has a wider potential range of weapons due to the number of countries that accepted it.
The E model would have all the usual F4 weapons like sparrows, numerous sidewinder variants, GP bombs, napalm and even shrikes, but also you can see it in IAF colours packing Mavericks, Popeyes, and stuff like python. Given we now have Syria, an A4 mod out there, mig 19 and 21s, F14s, an upcoming A6,A7 and F8, and eventually a Mirage F1, that entire area has historical conflicts you can very possible insert an F4E into (IAF, IRIAF, HaF. TuAF, EAF, and also USAF depending on timeline), it’s really the best candidate for the job.

F4Es can even carry PGMs and self designate with PaveTack and PaveSpike. Furthermore, Belsimtek were working on a post-Vietnam E variant that could have dropped GBU-8 (think the USAF version of a walleye).

From a business standpoint, a carrier phantom is fine, but the -E model is better. The Japanese and Koreans even had variants of the E model, so simulating exercises in the Guam map wouldn’t be totally nuts for that.

Realistically, whoever can get a decent quality Phantom to DCS first will get a MASSIVE amount of money if they can do it right, but they will have a lot of people moaning at them no matter what variant the studio does - I’d suggest they choose one and double down. Maybe they can look at a different variant down the line as an expansion pack - in much the same way the A10C/C2 went, but probably a bit more money involved.


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I think it may actually be more interesting to model a short nose bird, then you as the pilot have to make a decision . . . take the gun - or take the centreline fuel.

The outcomes would be interesting to hear from others.

Stubbies all the way!

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, G.J.S said:

I think it may actually be more interesting to model a short nose bird, then you as the pilot have to make a decision . . . take the gun - or take the centreline fuel.

The outcomes would be interesting to hear from others.

Stubbies all the way!

Yeah, E, or no Phantom. Can't believe this is even a discussion still 😛


Edited by WinterH

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MiG-21Bis, Fw-190D, Bf-109K, P-51D, F-86F, Ka-50, UH-1H, Mi-8MTV2, Hawk T1A, C-101, FC3, A-10C, CA, Mirage 2000C, Gazelle, L-39, MiG-15Bis, F-5E, AJS 37 Viggen, Yak-52, Christen Eagle II, MiG-19, I-16, JF-17, F-14, F/A-18C, Fw-190A8, AV-8B/NA, Spitifre IX

 

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A-4E, MB-339, Edge 540

 

Utility modules:

Combined Arms, NS 430 GPS

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27 minutes ago, WinterH said:

Yeah, E, or no Phantom. Can't believe this is even a discussion still 😛

 

??

Thats not what I meant.

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Using SEA as background, the B makes most sense - not only was it flown in both the Navy and Marines.

It also was used through the whole conflict and could be depicted (similarly to the Tomcat) in three or four different versions.

 

Like an early/ mid 60s B.

A late 60s/ early 70s B.

And a mid/ late 70s N.

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Sure, but we don’t really have a SEA map (and I’m not aware of one on the horizon). An -E model is something we see in Syria and Persian gulf through the various Arab/Israeli conflict of the 70s, as well as the IRIAF, and even older Greek and Turkish stuff over Akrotiri (when it finally gets there).
Im quite realistic that even if I’d love a carrier based model, or an RAF one, I’m more likely to get an E based on it’s more widespread export and the existing fit within the currently available ecosystem.

Realistically speaking, I’m just happy to see a phantom in DCS. I’ll take whatever I can get.


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  • 4 weeks later...
On 2/3/2021 at 6:38 AM, Bravelink03 said:

F-4D, F-4E, F-4J and F-4S. Two Vietnam era birds (F-4D and J) and two post war 80s birds (F-4E and F-4S).

 

Also what kind of banter would you like to hear?

The E model was Vietnam era as well, we had birds at Seymour Johnson that had MiG kills to their credit. One airframe was credited with three kills and had 3 red stars painted on the port intake ramp in addition to "MiG Killer" stenciled on the inside of the nose gear door.

 

I forgot to add that I'd prefer the F-4E since I was a weapons mechanic and worked on them for a year and a half. For nostalgia reasons. 🙂

On 5/11/2021 at 10:31 AM, G.J.S said:

I think it may actually be more interesting to model a short nose bird, then you as the pilot have to make a decision . . . take the gun - or take the centreline fuel.

The outcomes would be interesting to hear from others.

Stubbies all the way!

Take the fuel, the gun pods were very inaccurate.


Edited by Elf1606688794
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Folks keep mentioning later F-4E's, if you want a later one, get one with the ARN-101 system as it greatly increased the bombing accuracy. If you're a Phantom pilot you're not only going on air to air missions you're also going to be trucking a lot of freight. The Phantom was capable of carrying up to 24 500 lb bombs, 6 each on stations 1, 5, and 9, 3 each on 2 and 8.

 

The later E models I worked on could carry anything in the USAF inventory. They could carry Sparrows, Sidewinders, Mavericks, Shrikes, GP bombs, Snake Eyes, cluster munitions, laser guided weapons, chemical bombs and two different nukes. I probably missed a few. (They were restricted from carrying 2.75" rockets when it was found that plastic pieces on the back end of the rocket were being ingested into the intakes during the firing sequence causing damage to the turbine blades.)

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2 minutes ago, Elf1606688794 said:

Folks keep mentioning later F-4E's, if you want a later one, get one with the ARN-101 system as it greatly increased the bombing accuracy. If you're a Phantom pilot you're not only going on air to air missions you're also going to be trucking a lot of freight. The Phantom was capable of carrying up to 24 500 lb bombs, 6 each on stations 1, 5, and 9, 3 each on 2 and 8.

 

The later E models I worked on could carry anything in the USAF inventory. They could carry Sparrows, Sidewinders, Mavericks, Shrikes, GP bombs, Snake Eyes, cluster munitions, laser guided weapons, chemical bombs and two different nukes. I probably missed a few. (They were restricted from carrying 2.75" rockets when it was found that plastic pieces on the back end of the rocket were being ingested into the intakes during the firing sequence causing damage to the turbine blades.)

 

Yeah there were a bunch of E models/upgrades etc... 

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  • 4 weeks later...
Posted (edited)
On 6/11/2021 at 9:33 PM, Elf1606688794 said:

The E model was Vietnam era as well, we had birds at Seymour Johnson that had MiG kills to their credit. One airframe was credited with three kills and had 3 red stars painted on the port intake ramp in addition to "MiG Killer" stenciled on the inside of the nose gear door.

 

I forgot to add that I'd prefer the F-4E since I was a weapons mechanic and worked on them for a year and a half. For nostalgia reasons. 🙂

Take the fuel, the gun pods were very inaccurate.

 

Another point in the case for the F-4E: Israelis had at least nine aces in the F-4E during the 1973 Yom Kippur war - they shot down some 116 planes with the F-4E (slatted, hard-wing, TISEO-equipped, weird versions with different combinations of the aforementioned features) between 1969 and 1973. This even fits the Syria map real well. 

 

If we could have both, I'd like any slatted F-4E and the F-4J - both Vietnam variants that would work decently well in DCS mid-Cold War servers. The original ARN-101-equipped version that Belsimtek was doing would have been great too.. just a dream for now I suppose!


Edited by SgtPappy
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On 5/14/2021 at 6:52 PM, Bremspropeller said:

Using SEA as background, the B makes most sense - not only was it flown in both the Navy and Marines.

It also was used through the whole conflict and could be depicted (similarly to the Tomcat) in three or four different versions.

 

Like an early/ mid 60s B.

A late 60s/ early 70s B.

And a mid/ late 70s N.

 

Surely wouldn't mind a B. Any naval variant for that matter - especially since HB are doing the Forrestal class CV's have invested in advanced hook physics etc. it only makes sense and would sell like hotcakes. 

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Skysurfer said:

 

Surely wouldn't mind a B. Any naval variant for that matter - especially since HB are doing the Forrestal class CV's have invested in advanced hook physics etc. it only makes sense and would sell like hotcakes. 


True. Would love to see a FGR2 knocking around 😍 , but would like to see an “S” also, hell - any full blooded Phantom! TISEO “E” anyone?


Edited by G.J.S
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