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Absolutely Loving the Gazelle


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3 hours ago, jumphigh said:

Unfortunately I can't find any description about the autopilot master button on pilot's grip in the manual but from my testing it's working in a way of attitude holding. Set the Gazelle to a specific attitude in the air, push the button and the gyros are holding the angles on the two cyclic axes.

Maybe i know more about the module i criticise, i just wait until you find that button for "attitude hold" (cough cough trim? magnetic brake?) 😅 another awfully implemented, half-baked feature.


Edited by RealDCSpilot

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22 minutes ago, RealDCSpilot said:

Maybe i know more about the module i criticise, i just wait until you find that button for "attitude hold" (cough cough trim? magnetic brake?) 😅 another half-baked implemented feature.

Are you serious? I mentioned the button: Autopilot Master on pilot's cyclic. On default it's not bound to a key and never explained in the manual. If you push the button it seems to hold the current attitude, e.g. the nose does not pitch up slowly in forward flight. Even manual hover seems easier then. But the other autopilot modes can't kick in if requested. You have to push the button again to "restore" auto hover or speed-/alt-holding capabilities.

 

Even on this forum I only found one posting where an user is curious as well about this function. So it seems widely unknown and unused?


Edited by jumphigh
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So you meant "altitude hold" instead of "attitude hold"? Just to make sure...

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6 minutes ago, RealDCSpilot said:

So you meant "altitude hold" instead of "attitude hold"? Just to make sure...

No, I really mean "attitude". Since this button has no description in the manual I can only infer from observed behaviour during my tests. Bind the button to a key and try yourself! If I push it, it seems that the Gazelle is pinned in its current attitude.

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1 hour ago, jumphigh said:

It seems that real life pilots can't imagine, that there are systems out there, which are able to perform a real heading hold with neutral pedals. So they are not able to realise that others might expect another behaviour of the SAS. But surely it's me who's wrong. The Gazelle is decades old and far away from modern micro gyro stabilisation.

 

This is a quote from a gazelle owners forum about the SAS

 

Quote

#155 
24th March 2014, 12:21


...

 

With SAS off, it also flys great but it is more stable with SAS switched ON. The 3-axis SAS is an electrical system powered by an alternator bolted onto the engine accessories sprocket. The alternator produces 120V 400Hz in 3 phases. The SAS system has 3 gyros (one for each axis), 2 magnetic brakes for the cyclic (they call it 'stick feel'), a different yaw damper and 2 electric jacks. These jacks are mounted in series with the cyclic controls.

 

On the cyclic there are 2 buttons for the SAS; with one pressed you set the course you want to fly. When you release this button, it keeps this attitude and heading. The other button is to switch SAS off. With SAS engaged you can completely release all controls for at least 3 minutes (according to the POH). Very handy when you need to grab your maps or to take a breath 🙂
   

Savoia  
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http://www.aviafora.com/forums/forum/helicopter-fora/gazelles/343-shrieking-gazelles/page6

 

The SA-341 SAS block diagram shows the cyclic Mag Brake is used to set the SAS's "attitude" reference, the 2nd button is labelled SAS release/disconnect.

 

AFAIK in the real, a second press of "SAS release" does not re-engage the AP, instead the pilot must use the switch on the SAS Control box.

 

g8vWO2C.jpg

 

My son (T16000m FCS) made good use of the DCS Gazelle SAS auto-pilot modes, unfortunately as a FFB user I found the Mag Brake problematic, so was never able to do so.


Edited by Ramsay
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@jumphighThe autopilot master button is an override for the autopilot's pitch/roll/yaw channels. You see them deactivate and activate by pressing the button, in auto-hover it really does a strange thing, the airframe tilts into a strange position and it starts to glide away. I guess you found another bug.

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Still the best precision attack chopper in Digital Combat Simulation.

PC will get it sorted, and then it really will be something special.

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On 4/1/2021 at 11:47 PM, Rogue Trooper said:

Still the best precision attack chopper in Digital Combat Simulation.

 

Why it is best?

 

On 4/1/2021 at 11:47 PM, Rogue Trooper said:

PC will get it sorted, and then it really will be something special.

 

Hopefully they get it sorted. But how it will become something special then?

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On 4/6/2021 at 8:40 AM, Fri13 said:

 

Why it is best?

 

 

Hopefully they get it sorted. But how it will become something special then?

 

Why it is best?

It has defensive capabilities that every jet jockey takes for granted.

If you take away every RWR in every bluefor jet fighter in DCS you will understand how those airframes are suddenly unfit for the peer to peer combat zone that is DCS (ground and air threats).

As soon as any radar guided weapon is in the area, the Gazelle pilot knows it is there and immediately plans how to counter that threat. Hell, if the Gazelle Pilot enters the threat zone low, then he probably knows the enemies position well before the radar broadcaster knows the gazelle is even there.

For sure the precision weapon load is terrible with only 4 missiles, but without doubt this airframe is fit for purpose in the Peer to Peer DCS combat zone... I just do not understand why this needs explaining.... not enough gazelle time perhaps?

Too much utility work being done in choppers? 

 

But how it will become something special then?

The skids are so close to the airframe on this chopper, on the ground the entire thing sits low.

The airframe itself is low as hell, the optics are mounted on the top of the cockpit and the blades are as low as they can be.

the 3 blades further reduce the blade length.

It is nimble and fast and can maneuverer into and below the tightest and lowest of ground obstacles, this is really critical against the superior Redfor ground defences and especially with the HOT3's 4Km range. It is just a close range precision missile delivery system where the enemy must be hunted down.

It will do the above far better than the tall Kiowa.... but the Kiowa will be special mind 🙂

 

The French just know how to do it, after the Apache, I want the French Tiger.


Edited by Rogue Trooper
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1 minute ago, Rogue Trooper said:

 

Why it is best?

It has defensive capabilities that every jet jockey takes for granted.

If you take away every RWR in every bluefor jet fighter in DCS you will understand how those airframes are suddenly unfit for the peer to peer combat zone that is DCS (ground and air threats).

As soon as any radar guided weapon is in the area the Gazelle pilot knows its there and immediately plans how to counter the threat. Hell, if the Gazelle Pilot enters the threat zone low then he probably knows the enemies position well before the radar broadcaster knows the gazelle is even there.

For sure the precision weapon load is terrible with only 4 missiles, but without doubt this airframe is fit for purpose in the Peer to Peer DCS combat zone. 

 

 

So as again, RWR is not required because you fly low anyways and you know anyways where the targets are.... 

Where the RWR is actually useful is when a AAA like ZSU-23-4 ranges you, but at that moment it is pretty late as shells are already flying on your direction. 

MANPADS, Optically guided missiles etc doesn't pick up in RWR. 

The RWR is useful if you would be flying blindly at high altitude and need radar to pick you up.

 

Considering that KA-50 is even tasked for recon, it doesn't need RWR. It does benefit a lot more about MWS to detect launched missiles (other than just radar ones), and when going you anyways know generic areas where possible threats are so you scout them and search for the enemy there instead just trust the RWR or MWS.

 

1 minute ago, Rogue Trooper said:

But how it will become something special then?

The skids are so low on this chopper.

 

Mi-24 has retractable gears. Same is with KA-50. 

Nothing special in that. 

 

1 minute ago, Rogue Trooper said:

The airframe itself is low as hell, the optics are mounted on the top of the cockpit and the blades are as low as they can be.

 

OH-58 would like to have a word with it... 

And no, those things do not really add much even when first thought is opposite. This is reason why even today the optical systems are on the noses and below the airframe as it doesn't matter so much. There is not much weight that can be put on Gazelle mast as it would get out of balance, similar thing why flying KW without mast is.... 

 

1 minute ago, Rogue Trooper said:

the 3 blades further reduce the blade length.

 

Nothing special there really. 

Gazelle has 10.5 meters, KA-50 and AH-64 has 14.5/14.6 meters. 2 meters extra to each direction. That is not much in difference at those ranges.

 

1 minute ago, Rogue Trooper said:

It is nimble and fast and can maneuverer into and below the tightest and lowest of ground obstacles, this is really critical against the superior Redfor ground defences and especially with the HOT3 4Km range. It is just a close range precision missile delivery system

It will do the above far better than the tall Kiowa.... but the Kiowa will be special 🙂

 

KA-50 goes below the telephone and train powerlines, but doesn't fit so well below the trees like Gazelle and Huey can, that can be said. But when are you really flying below trees in DCS (other than proofing the flight skills)?

 

I can put the KA-50 to same routes as Gazelle, it is not really challenging.  The KA-50 is more agile in maneuvers but at the moment the Gazelle has the unrealistic flight modeling that makes it fly like on rails without any real challenge to fly it. 

 

The Kiowa Warrior will have not just a 12.7 mm HMG fixed like Gazelle has its 20 mm cannon (and both lacks at the moment the recoil that is zero in them), but KW has as well AGR-20A (APKWS II) rockets and Hellfire II missiles. And Gazelle Viviane can't designate targets with laser for others so co-operation becomes more challenging as it just has laser range finder. 

The OH-58 will pack a lot more punch in its package. And KA-50 would have S-8Kor laser guided rockets as well available to it (if ED could include them). 

 

Where it can be said to win a KA-50 is its FLIR capability. Something that was planned for the KA-50 but didn't receive it in our old (non-existing anymore) upgrade version.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Fri13 said:

 

 

So as again, RWR is not required because you fly low anyways and you know anyways where the targets are.... 

Where the RWR is actually useful is when a AAA like ZSU-23-4 ranges you, but at that moment it is pretty late as shells are already flying on your direction. 

MANPADS, Optically guided missiles etc doesn't pick up in RWR. 

The RWR is useful if you would be flying blindly at high altitude and need radar to pick you up.

 

Considering that KA-50 is even tasked for recon, it doesn't need RWR. It does benefit a lot more about MWS to detect launched missiles (other than just radar ones), and when going you anyways know generic areas where possible threats are so you scout them and search for the enemy there instead just trust the RWR or MWS.

 

 

Mi-24 has retractable gears. Same is with KA-50. 

Nothing special in that. 

 

 

OH-58 would like to have a word with it... 

And no, those things do not really add much even when first thought is opposite. This is reason why even today the optical systems are on the noses and below the airframe as it doesn't matter so much. There is not much weight that can be put on Gazelle mast as it would get out of balance, similar thing why flying KW without mast is.... 

 

 

Nothing special there really. 

Gazelle has 10.5 meters, KA-50 and AH-64 has 14.5/14.6 meters. 2 meters extra to each direction. That is not much in difference at those ranges.

 

 

KA-50 goes below the telephone and train powerlines, but doesn't fit so well below the trees like Gazelle and Huey can, that can be said. But when are you really flying below trees in DCS (other than proofing the flight skills)?

 

I can put the KA-50 to same routes as Gazelle, it is not really challenging.  The KA-50 is more agile in maneuvers but at the moment the Gazelle has the unrealistic flight modeling that makes it fly like on rails without any real challenge to fly it. 

 

The Kiowa Warrior will have not just a 12.7 mm HMG fixed like Gazelle has its 20 mm cannon (and both lacks at the moment the recoil that is zero in them), but KW has as well AGR-20A (APKWS II) rockets and Hellfire II missiles. And Gazelle Viviane can't designate targets with laser for others so co-operation becomes more challenging as it just has laser range finder. 

The OH-58 will pack a lot more punch in its package. And KA-50 would have S-8Kor laser guided rockets as well available to it (if ED could include them). 

 

Where it can be said to win a KA-50 is its FLIR capability. Something that was planned for the KA-50 but didn't receive it in our old (non-existing anymore) upgrade version.

 

 

 

I do not need to compare airframes Fri13, that is just oranges against apples.

 

The RWR is a hunting tool as well as a defensive tool.... this is critical to the precision weapons purpose.... there is NO discussion here!

The Gazelle is a pop up and engage precision weapon but you need to get in close to engage. 

Did you know that when you engage a Tunguska at 4 klicks it switches to its 30mm Kannons, because of the extreme range it fires the rounds up which arc into the air and drop down ontop of you like rain. There is no hiding with that bad boy. It is the hunt mate, Tunguska Kannons blaze, you move and you prey you do not break the wire.!

The Gazelle has been in DCS for a few years, I do not have the 700 - 800 hours of flight time in the Gazelle like I do in the KA-50, but I do know what it is good at.

 

Perhaps when the Apache comes, you will understand how such tools are used to your advantage...... plus it will have an awesome FM 🙂

 


Edited by Rogue Trooper
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2 hours ago, Rogue Trooper said:

I do not need to compare airframes Fri13, that is just oranges against apples.

The RWR is a hunting tool as well as a defensive tool.... this is critical to the precision weapons purpose.... there is NO discussion here!

 

How do you hunt a target that:

1) You don't know being there until you are under fire (ie. ZSU-23-4 doesn't use radar for helicopters than just for ranging on moment they fire)

2) You already know they are on the area because other intelligence (why you are there) by having it on the map?

 

The RWR is a defensive tool, that when you are under attack from fighters then you can do something about it or you might get the just the ranging warning to GTFO. 

In the DCS the radar units are idiots. Constantly On and just waiting to be killed. Even a simple IADS script makes them far more dangerous as they don't reveal their position until you are just about to die, likely by something else first. 

 

2 hours ago, Rogue Trooper said:

The Gazelle is a pop up and engage precision weapon but you need to get in close to engage.

 

And KA-50, Apache, Mi-24 etc isn't precision? Or capable to do it from close range?

 

2 hours ago, Rogue Trooper said:

Did you know that when you engage a Tunguska at 4 klicks it switches to its 30mm Kannons, because of the extreme range it fires the rounds up which arc into the air and drop down ontop of you like rain.

 

Did you know that the Tunguska AI is idiot?

 

2 hours ago, Rogue Trooper said:

There is no hiding with that bad boy. It is the hunt mate, Tunguska Kannons blaze, you move and you prey you do not break the wire.!

 

The Tunguska is capable to shoot down your ATGM if wanted. You are now playing just the DCS rules with its stupid AI logic. 

 

2 hours ago, Rogue Trooper said:

The Gazelle has been in DCS for a few years, I do not have the 700 - 800 hours of flight time in the Gazelle like I do in the KA-50, but I do know what it is good at.

 

The base version with HOT 3 missiles is a AT variant, not a hunter for SAM systems that are not even protected in real doctrinal manner. That is the problem in DCS that ground units are idiots. 

 

2 hours ago, Rogue Trooper said:

Perhaps when the Apache comes, you will understand how such tools are used to your advantage...... plus it will have an awesome FM 🙂

 

In the 10 year period that the KA-50 has been out, I might have thousands of hours on it. Since the Gazelle, I have hundreds of hours in it.

I know how capable it is and how it doesn't shine as you claim it does unless you are shooting practicing targets on shooting range.

Even going against a Combined Arms player will annihilate you quickly if you don't have all forces to support you as well and you get a sneaky lucky change to third party the fight.

 

 

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Your are arguing for things that simply do not exist in DCS Fri13, I just do not know where your heads at mate.

 

What Apache and Hind are you talking to me about?

 

Do you think I am discussing the future perhaps and comparing the future with my Gazelle or do you think I am discussing the now and the past?

 

 

10 minutes ago, Fri13 said:

 

How do you hunt a target that:

1) You don't know being there until you are under fire (ie. ZSU-23-4 doesn't use radar for helicopters than just for ranging on moment they fire)

2) You already know they are on the area because other intelligence (why you are there) by having it on the map?

 

The RWR is a defensive tool, that when you are under attack from fighters then you can do something about it or you might get the just the ranging warning to GTFO. 

In the DCS the radar units are idiots. Constantly On and just waiting to be killed. Even a simple IADS script makes them far more dangerous as they don't reveal their position until you are just about to die, likely by something else first. 

 

 

And KA-50, Apache, Mi-24 etc isn't precision? Or capable to do it from close range?

 

 

Did you know that the Tunguska AI is idiot?

 

 

The Tunguska is capable to shoot down your ATGM if wanted. You are now playing just the DCS rules with its stupid AI logic. 

 

 

The base version with HOT 3 missiles is a AT variant, not a hunter for SAM systems that are not even protected in real doctrinal manner. That is the problem in DCS that ground units are idiots. 

 

 

In the 10 year period that the KA-50 has been out, I might have thousands of hours on it. Since the Gazelle, I have hundreds of hours in it.

I know how capable it is and how it doesn't shine as you claim it does unless you are shooting practicing targets on shooting range.

Even going against a Combined Arms player will annihilate you quickly if you don't have all forces to support you as well and you get a sneaky lucky change to third party the fight.

 

 

Your are arguing for things that simply do not exist in DCS Fri13, I just do not know where your heads at mate.

 

What Apache and Hind are you talking to me about?

 

Do you think I am discussing the future perhaps and comparing the future with my Gazelle or do you think I am discussing the now and the past?

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4 minutes ago, Rogue Trooper said:

Your are arguing for things that simply do not exist in DCS Fri13, I just do not know where your heads at mate.

What Apache and Hind are you talking to me about?

Do you think I am discussing the future perhaps and comparing the future with my Gazelle or do you think I am discussing the now and the past?

 

Do You understand that You have made claims that Gazelle is the best helicopter in the DCS W for combat? For a "precision attack" and everything else too?

There is not much in the Gazelle functionality or capabilities that makes it better in those than other helicopter types can offer. Yes there are currently only two helicopters that can launch ATGM, KA-50 and SA342, but there is nothing in Gazelle that makes it more precise or more surviving than KA-50. The main benefit is just it has a FLIR that KA-50 doesn't have. 

And once the OH-58 gets out, the Bo-105, the AH-64 and even Mi-24 then there are plenty of more that can launch ATGM and some of them be better than Gazelle.

 

You are arguing about things that doesn't exist in Gazelle. 

 

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Fine,

Situational awareness is probably the keyword here and where the Gazelle outclasses the KA-50. Its got Mark 1 eye balls, unrestricted views and a radar detection suite that warns the pilot of the unseen threats.

Indeed it can pop up high, attract radar attention and then dive and manoeuvre into an attack position to counter the threat.

 

Combined arms will be against the Mk1s, low level flight, RWR and patience..... it is just a perfect cocktail for a balanced precision weapon in my book but obviously not yours.. 

I would love to fly with you Fri13 in live chat and argue these points, but there is simply nowhere left to go here. The Gazelle flight model we can discuss, but arguing about the balance of the Gazelle weapon is just laughable..... as a light weight combat helicopter, the Gazelle is complete.

let it go. 


Edited by Rogue Trooper
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The Gazelles ability to push deep into the enemies front line is simply superb and has no equal in DCS.... at the moment.


Edited by Rogue Trooper
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@Rogue TrooperGet the real taste of DCS first and play against a human Combined Arms commander. Because of your limited attack range, he will surround you in no time and put you to bed before you can do anything harmful. The Ka-50 is far more flexible in these situations, you can hold a safe distance, quickly change positions, pop up or down, easily hover below the tree line and slide left or right to find a gap to have 12 chances to hurt the enemy pretty bad with laser precision from 7 km away (or even more, i already managed to hit from 12 km away). This is the definition of a hunter. The Gaz is just a lurker with defensive capabilities. The Ka-50 is my favourite tool to take enemy airfields on PVP servers, before they know you are there - it's already too late.


Edited by RealDCSpilot
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On 4/9/2021 at 2:03 AM, Rogue Trooper said:

The Gazelles ability to push deep into the enemies front line is simply superb and has no equal in DCS.... at the moment.

 

 

The Gazelle was never designed to push deep into enemy territory. It's not an attack helicopter, it's a tank hunter that is supposed to kill advancing tanks from within friendly territory (in the -M variant).

 

Its RWR is the only advantage it has over the Ka-50 (and maybe the IR camera, but its simulation is not very well done in DCS so far), all other advantages (armament, precision (!), missile range, armour, speed, automation) go to the Ka-50.

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