mytai01 Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 (edited) Is the flight model done? Does the aircraft really lose this much energy so easily? It seems like it gets stuck too easily at low speed/energy state. It seems to bleed energy too quickly. At least compared to other 4th Gen modules I'm flying. The Su-27 completely kicks the F-16's but in turns... Edited December 28, 2020 by mytai01 MS Win7 Pro x64, Intel i7-6700K 4.0Ghz, Corsair RAM 16Gb,EVGA GeForce GTX 1080 FTW GAMING ACX 3.0, w/ Adjustable RGB LED Graphics Card 08G-P4-6286-KR, Creative Labs SB X-FI Titanium Fatal1ty Champ PCIe Sound Card, Corsair Neutron XTI 1TB SSD, TM Warthog Throttle & Stick, TM TPR Pedels, Oculus Rift VR Headset CV1, Klipsch Promedia 4.1 Speakers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deano87 Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 (edited) Short Answer : No, it’s still WIP Not as short Answer: The F-16 is designed to be flown at the higher 350-450 knot bracket, and use the higher available G as an advantage. We are quite limited by our pilots current inability to sustain 9G for any meaningful period of time, which takes away one of the Vipers main advantages. The Viper is also very AoA limited compared to the Hornet or Su-27 so if you let it get slow you’ll quickly hit the AoA limit and be stuck there barely pulling 3G while the F-18 or Su-27 can still pull that nose around on you. So the key takeaway from that that is keep it above 350kn. Speed is life for the Viper, use the vertical and don’t play the slow speed game with the Hornet or Su-27. we should get pilot and FM improvements once resources transfer over from the Hornet to the Viper as the Hornet gets closer to completion. Edited December 28, 2020 by Deano87 1 Proud owner of: PointCTRL VR : Finger Trackers for VR -- Real Simulator : FSSB R3L Force Sensing Stick. -- Deltasim : Force Sensor WH Slew Upgrade -- Mach3Ti Ring : Real Flown Mach 3 SR-71 Titanium, made into an amazing ring. My Fathers Aviation Memoirs: 50 Years of Flying Fun - From Hunter to Spitfire and back again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake122 Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 One thing I've noticed is that you have to actively unload the nose when you get in the less than about 250 knots to accelerate with any reasonable amount, I haven't ever looked down to see if I'm at the AOA limiter max. But it will be wallowing around and releasing pressure won't reduce the small amount of Gs, normally 1.4 with neutral stick, you actually have to push over to get it to 1G and start accelerating better and of course a full 0G unload is best when you get the Viper down to where it doesn't like to be. 1 I7-9700KF@5ghz, 32GB DDR4 3200, RTX 3090, Pimax 5k+, Virpil T-50CM2 base with Warthog, F/A-18, T-50cm, and VFX grips, Saitek X65F, Saitek Switch Panel, TM Cougar MFDs, TM TPR pedals, JetSeat and bass pucks, H640P for VRK, PointCtrl 3rd Space Vest project for basic G Seat/G Suit simulation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCPanda Posted January 11, 2021 Share Posted January 11, 2021 Sad thing is the F-16, the so called one of the best dogfighter with amazing turning capability (2 circle) cannot outturn anything in DCS in the current state. Reason? FM+G-model, and maybe other jets being overpowered... I seriously hope F-16 FM gets a rework, because I love the jet, but I hate taking it to a dogfight sever.... 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deano87 Posted January 11, 2021 Share Posted January 11, 2021 It’s going to get work, they’ve said it’ll get work. Just going to have to be patient. 1 Proud owner of: PointCTRL VR : Finger Trackers for VR -- Real Simulator : FSSB R3L Force Sensing Stick. -- Deltasim : Force Sensor WH Slew Upgrade -- Mach3Ti Ring : Real Flown Mach 3 SR-71 Titanium, made into an amazing ring. My Fathers Aviation Memoirs: 50 Years of Flying Fun - From Hunter to Spitfire and back again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCPanda Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 15 hours ago, Deano87 said: It’s going to get work, they’ve said it’ll get work. Just going to have to be patient. Yeah, hopefully. Just wish ED could put FM rework on their priorities 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kengou Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 It's really not in a bad state, but I agree it feels like it loses a little too much speed in turns. Still not like this prevents anybody from winning in BFM if they're good. It's easily a match for any other plane. The Viper really needs to be kept fast. Good rule of thumb is to NEVER get below 250 if you can help it, except certain circumstances like pulling over the top of a loop. Best to keep it at at least 400 whenever you can. If you're neutral or advantaged, it's ALWAYS worth it to unload and regain energy for a couple seconds to pick up your sustained turn rate. 450 - 475 should be the sweet spot for high G turns. Shoot for about 8, since our DCS pilot cannot sustain 9. Slice the nose below the horizon during the turn to maintain speed (and G) a little longer too. Definitely take it into the vertical whenever the opponent gets slow, and be sure not to pull too hard when doing so to preserve energy. Light G until vertical then max G over the top, then light G again downhill to regain energy. Goal in the Viper should be to preserve energy and sustained turn rate while letting the bandit lose energy steadily until they can't hang with you anymore. More energy is more options. 6 Virpil WarBRD | Thrustmaster Hornet Grip | Foxx Mount | Thrustmaster TWCS Throttle | Logitech G Throttle Quadrant | VKB T-Rudder IV | TrackIR 5 AMD Ryzen 5 3600 | Nvidia GTX 1060 6GB | 32GB DDR4 3200 | SSD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCPanda Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 I know everything you said, but almost everything in DCS out rates the Viper... Impossible to beat the Hornet if pilots are on the same skill level... So I cannot agree that the Viper is easily a match for any other plane. It's not. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpaceMonkey037 Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 On 1/12/2021 at 1:26 PM, kengou said: It's really not in a bad state, but I agree it feels like it loses a little too much speed in turns. Still not like this prevents anybody from winning in BFM if they're good. It's easily a match for any other plane. The Viper really needs to be kept fast. Good rule of thumb is to NEVER get below 250 if you can help it, except certain circumstances like pulling over the top of a loop. Best to keep it at at least 400 whenever you can. If you're neutral or advantaged, it's ALWAYS worth it to unload and regain energy for a couple seconds to pick up your sustained turn rate. 450 - 475 should be the sweet spot for high G turns. Shoot for about 8, since our DCS pilot cannot sustain 9. Slice the nose below the horizon during the turn to maintain speed (and G) a little longer too. Definitely take it into the vertical whenever the opponent gets slow, and be sure not to pull too hard when doing so to preserve energy. Light G until vertical then max G over the top, then light G again downhill to regain energy. Goal in the Viper should be to preserve energy and sustained turn rate while letting the bandit lose energy steadily until they can't hang with you anymore. More energy is more options. I've studied the EM charts for the Block 50 in high detail. The magical speed in the F-16 for maximum sustained turn rate is: As fast as possible under 500 knots while not blacking out. That simple. Have a safe flight! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkthunder Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 Nobody mentioned it but the FLCS rules are still based on the NASA test paper which IS NOT how the FLCS works in the operational F-16. The g-onset rate is too low and can't even reach 9g at the correct speed. The negative g is also limited, the real a/c has a limit of -3.5g. But they said this is all WIP. The engine is also pretty weird, RPM values are specially off. Not sure if this translates into reduced thrust in game. Windows 10 - Intel i7 7700K 4.2 Ghz (no OC) - Asus Strix GTX 1080 8Gb - 16GB DDR4 (3000 MHz) - SSD 500GB + WD Black FZEX 1TB 6Gb/s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimesake Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 Be aware, F-16's turn rate below Mach 0.4 is 1 deg/sec lower than the flight manual. A real life F-16 at 26000 lbs should be able to pull 9G with 15 deg AOA at Mach 0.67, and pull 9G with much less AOA at Mach 0.83. However in DCS this is not the case. It requires significantly higher AOA to pull the Gs, resulting in more induced drag. Check the replay file: 26000lbs (1).trk 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimesake Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 (edited) A real life F-16 at 26000 lbs should be able to pull 9G with 15 deg AOA at Mach 0.67, and pull 9G with much less AOA at Mach 0.83. However in DCS this is not the case. It requires significantly higher AOA to pull the Gs, resulting in more induced drag. 26000lbs (1).trk Edited January 17, 2021 by oldtimesake 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team BIGNEWY Posted January 16, 2021 ED Team Share Posted January 16, 2021 Hi, We do have some AOA / G tweaks planned for a future update. thank you 5 6 Forum rules - DCS Crashing? Try this first - Cleanup and Repair - Discord BIGNEWY#8703 - Youtube - Patch Status Windows 11, NVIDIA MSI RTX 3090, Intel® i9-10900K 3.70GHz, 5.30GHz Turbo, Corsair Hydro Series H150i Pro, 64GB DDR @3200, ASUS ROG Strix Z490-F Gaming, HP Reverb G2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaos Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 15 hours ago, oldtimesake said: .... Thanks oldtimesake. Did you make sure to adjust the temperature in-game? For some odd reason the "standard weather" in the mission editor assumes a temperature of 20C i.s.o. 15C. When all is said and done... I think the performance of the F-16 in-game is pretty close to your performance charts... "It's not the years, honey. It's the mileage..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimesake Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 2 hours ago, chaos said: Thanks oldtimesake. Did you make sure to adjust the temperature in-game? For some odd reason the "standard weather" in the mission editor assumes a temperature of 20C i.s.o. 15C. When all is said and done... I think the performance of the F-16 in-game is pretty close to your performance charts... Of course that is done. The performance of the F-16 in-game is not close to the real F-16 in many aspects, for instance: Try acceleration at sea level 300knots-650knots with 21000 lbs total weight. Real vs DCS is 13 vs 15.1 seconds. The DCS F-16 has significantly lower lift curve slope, which requires F-16 to pull more AOA to achieve the same G load, resulting more induced drag, and this has been confirmed by ED: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zohardv Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 On 1/12/2021 at 2:26 PM, kengou said: It's really not in a bad state.... Best to keep it at at least 400 whenever you can... I think it's easier said than done. I find myself struggling to maintain a 3g turn against a Mig-29, while watching the speed rapidly drop from 275 to 200 (completely sleek, with about 5000 pounds of fuel). I also find that maintaining a turn at 400+ knots will have a huge radius, rendering it very ineffective in a two circle fight. That's not how the viper got it's nickname. IMHO, something is way off in the Viper's FM. Sorry to say, but It feels like a flying wheelbarrow. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kengou Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 52 minutes ago, Zohardv said: I think it's easier said than done. I find myself struggling to maintain a 3g turn against a Mig-29, while watching the speed rapidly drop from 275 to 200 (completely sleek, with about 5000 pounds of fuel). I also find that maintaining a turn at 400+ knots will have a huge radius, rendering it very ineffective in a two circle fight. That's not how the viper got it's nickname. IMHO, something is way off in the Viper's FM. Sorry to say, but It feels like a flying wheelbarrow. Available G is far lower at 275 knots, and AoA is much higher, resulting in much more speed loss compared to higher speeds. Which is why you want to avoid speeds so slow. Also radius doesn’t matter in a two circle fight, rate does. Radius is minimized for one circle fights. Rate on the Viper is top knotch at 450+ knots. Radius is high yes, but doesn’t matter as long as the fight is two circle. 1 Virpil WarBRD | Thrustmaster Hornet Grip | Foxx Mount | Thrustmaster TWCS Throttle | Logitech G Throttle Quadrant | VKB T-Rudder IV | TrackIR 5 AMD Ryzen 5 3600 | Nvidia GTX 1060 6GB | 32GB DDR4 3200 | SSD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCPanda Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 On 1/17/2021 at 3:53 AM, BIGNEWY said: Hi, We do have some AOA / G tweaks planned for a future update. thank you Nice! Hope it comes soon! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 21 hours ago, chaos said: For some odd reason the "standard weather" in the mission editor assumes a temperature of 20C i.s.o. 15C. Just a quick note on the temperature. From what I've checked, DCS's standard temperature is 16C. This is the value at which altimeter temperature error doesn't occur (at least to a certain altitude). 20C is nothing more than default ME setting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaos Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 2 hours ago, Syd said: Just a quick note on the temperature. From what I've checked, DCS's standard temperature is 16C. This is the value at which altimeter temperature error doesn't occur (at least to a certain altitude). 20C is nothing more than default ME setting. That's an interesting observation! I don't have the time to check this but if I change the temp. in the ME, will it reflect the adjusted temperature in-game? "It's not the years, honey. It's the mileage..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, chaos said: That's an interesting observation! I don't have the time to check this but if I change the temp. in the ME, will it reflect the adjusted temperature in-game? I'm not sure what you mean by "adjusted temperature in-game". If you're thinking about temperature error on the altimeter than yes - once you set temp. other than 16C than you will see that your altimeter indication is different than your ASL. To be precise - in temps lower than 16C your altimeter shows higher than you actually are, and for greater than 16C it's the opposite. That is why IRL in really low temperatures you have to calculate this error for safety reasons (mainly during approach phase). Edited January 18, 2021 by Syd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaos Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 2 minutes ago, Syd said: I'm not sure what you mean by "adjusted temperature in-game". If you're thinking about temperature error on the altimeter than yes - once you set temp. other than 16C than you will see that your altimeter indication is different than your ASL... Yes, that's what I meant to say. Thanks for letting me know... "It's not the years, honey. It's the mileage..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zohardv Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 21 hours ago, kengou said: Available G is far lower at 275 knots, and AoA is much higher, resulting in much more speed loss compared to higher speeds. Which is why you want to avoid speeds so slow. Also radius doesn’t matter in a two circle fight, rate does. Radius is minimized for one circle fights. Rate on the Viper is top knotch at 450+ knots. Radius is high yes, but doesn’t matter as long as the fight is two circle. I'm trying all sorts of scenarios, speeds, altitudes ang loads. The best TR I could get so far was about 19.7 deg/sec. and it was instantaneous. I could not sustain that turn rate. Is that considered top notch? (no sarcasm here, asking for real ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kengou Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 19.7 degrees per second is very good, yes. It's harder in DCS to sustain this rate than real life because there's likely a little too much drag in the turn compared to real life (based on testing). For more help sustaining the rate, try keeping the nose 5 - 10 degrees below the horizon. Virpil WarBRD | Thrustmaster Hornet Grip | Foxx Mount | Thrustmaster TWCS Throttle | Logitech G Throttle Quadrant | VKB T-Rudder IV | TrackIR 5 AMD Ryzen 5 3600 | Nvidia GTX 1060 6GB | 32GB DDR4 3200 | SSD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimesake Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 (edited) Did you see that? A DCS clean F-16C-50 needs 23.3deg AOA to reach 8.5G at mach 0.75, while a loaded real life F-16C-50 needs only 15deg AOA to reach 9G at mach 0.67! WTF is that lift curve slope, ED? Edited January 19, 2021 by oldtimesake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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