sigh .... Apparently another 'thing' with the F14 , this time it's ECM makes it completely immune to amraams, R77's and 27R's. Great...

[QuiGon]

46 minutes ago, Jonne said:

It is automatic. Per maunal, with the switch in RPT, the jammer will only start transmitting when a threat is detected. I guess this is where the problem arises, as threats are not detected properly leading to the blinking behaviour. Anyway apart from the blinking Tomcat, problems are amplified as all missiles using the AMRAAM API, for example the SD-10, currently experience a bug where they will be forced to HOJ when a target is jamming. More info here: 

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/258449-chk-sd-10-cant-track-jamming-target-at-all-multiplayer-only/?tab=comments#comment-4540453

 

 

Basically Gen 4 A2A is thus useless currently. Now if only the stable version of DCS would not actually be identical currently and thus have the very same major game breaking bug. Atleast its not as bad as the Laser Maverick CTD was.

 

 

I was talking about the switch itself and moving it to XMIT/RPT.

[Naquaii]

10 hours ago, GGTharos said:

 

The problem is the ECM/ECCM representation in DCS, it's not the F-14's problem overall.  How fast the ECM switches on/off should literally not matter.   Realistically we're talking hundreds of pulses a second intended to break track.   Some things may be more or less bothered by it, but the basic ECCM functions would be to attempt to home in on this transmission or hop frequencies and PRFs and of course re-initiate the seeker search as necessary.   You can probably appreciate that while it is very possible to implement all that, it's hardly trivial.

 

Yes, I'm well aware how radars and jammers work. The likely issue here is that DCS models it way to simplistic, i.e. the old on/off simulation that has has existed for ECM since forever. My guess is that the targeting functionality in the FC-3 aircraft sees and unsees the jammer very rapidly making it very hard to select and launch on it. IRL that would ofc not matter like you say as the systems would correlate emissions and also not remove the indication instantaneously like it seems to be in DCS.

 

Even if this means that the issue in a way is in the launching aircraft the simpler solution might be to change how our jammer behaves. We'll have to tinker a bit with it.

 

5 hours ago, TaxDollarsAtWork said:

That's the problem the quick automatic transitions between passive and active make it so that the Jammer 'blinks'.

 

This messes with the missile and radar API so that it doesn't work how ED intended ECM to behave.

 

Its behavior should be made similar to the upcoming F/A-18 Jammer or F-15, closer to how ED wants it to behave.

 

 

 

I do concur that this seems to be the likely issue with the current implementation. However, having an implementation where you have a warm-up time for transmission is also very unrealistic. The FC-3 aircraft behave as if you turn on and off the whole jammer, not the emission itself. In any case this doesn't mean that we don't want to fix this, either by ED fixing the jammer targeting stuff or if we have to change our logic somehow. In the end it might be that we end up implementing new ECM functionality if that becomes available.

 

Tl:dr, it's not intended that you can't shoot HoJ against the DECM in the F-14 and we'll have a look at it.

[GGTharos]

I am separately putting in a bug with ED about this.

[UWBuRn]

Please look at latest update on the Hornet from Wags.

 

It will be just an auto ON-OFF on the ECM: honestly, i hope that if F-14 ECM behaviour (and F-18 will be the same shortly) breaks FC3 A/C radar the latter will be updated to cope with them, not that it becomes the reason to hold back improvements on the subject. 

 

I very well remember when the 15 sec delay was introduced, it was just a workaround to avoid players manually turning it on and off trashing locks, probably radars should have been allowed to keep locks somehow or maybe was just more realistic to have to reacquire lock.

 

 

[GGTharos]

It doesn't just 'affect FC3 radar', it renders RF missiles 100% useless.

[UWBuRn]

@HB, just a clarification, so enabling ECM from jester menu does the following places the ECM in RPT mode, meaning it will actually jam ONLY when locked up, correct?

 

4 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

It doesn't just 'affect FC3 radar', it renders RF missiles 100% useless.

 

Oh, cool, i missed that part... well i hope ED address this together with Hornet ECM update. 

Edited January 18, 2021 by UWBuRn

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

It's like nobody is actually reading, but instead automatically blurting out : "Tomcat is not i-win button!"  :d 
Which is interesting because like that it sounds more like some of you are trying to convince yourselves instead of me, because i never said anything like the above
I did say that the range difference is a problem in multiplayer. 
It makes for very stale fights where the F14's are just lobbing 60nm phoenixes from beyond range of all other aircraft, and all the other aircraft just steer clear of the F14 , and nobody gets anything done. 
But so be it, this isn't a multiplayer centered game .
Not that i wouldn't very much like it if DCS would become bigger in multiplayer in the future, but i don't think it's going to happen. The game just doesn't lend itself for PvP multiplayer. Co-op though, sure. 

Anyway, what i did mention was the past of really serious bugs that always somehow seem to be in favor of the F14. (no track magic phoenix// phoenix going through mountains//phoenix chaff debacle//phoenix no active warning//jester calling out every enemy missile as soon as it comes off the rail//tank damage model)  
And what annoys me is that the f14 guys never see any problem with it, even when the phoenix never gave ANY active warning f14 guys were like "ah not a problem, as soon as you see 14 spike you should run away anyway" .
So, with all the (in my opinion) pretty serious bugs for multiplayer in mind, when i read the first few topics describing yet another game breaking bug in favor of F14 was i was like 'ah man here we go again' . 

By then other threads had popped up where it became clear that the mirage also had the same thing. 
I already said i spoke to soon, this time. 
 

[Naquaii]

4 minutes ago, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

It's like nobody is actually reading, but instead automatically blurting out : "Tomcat is not i-win button!"  :d 
Which is interesting because like that it sounds more like some of you are trying to convince yourselves instead of me, because i never said anything like the above
I did say that the range difference is a problem in multiplayer. 
It makes for very stale fights where the F14's are just lobbing 60nm phoenixes from beyond range of all other aircraft, and all the other aircraft just steer clear of the F14 , and nobody gets anything done. 
But so be it, this isn't a multiplayer centered game .
Not that i wouldn't very much like it if DCS would become bigger in multiplayer in the future, but i don't think it's going to happen. The game just doesn't lend itself for PvP multiplayer. Co-op though, sure. 

Anyway, what i did mention was the past of really serious bugs that always somehow seem to be in favor of the F14. (no track magic phoenix// phoenix going through mountains//phoenix chaff debacle//phoenix no active warning//jester calling out every enemy missile as soon as it comes off the rail//tank damage model)  
And what annoys me is that the f14 guys never see any problem with it, even when the phoenix never gave ANY active warning f14 guys were like "ah not a problem, as soon as you see 14 spike you should run away anyway" .
So, with all the (in my opinion) pretty serious bugs for multiplayer in mind, when i read the first few topics describing yet another game breaking bug in favor of F14 was i was like 'ah man here we go again' . 

By then other threads had popped up where it became clear that the mirage also had the same thing. 
I already said i spoke to soon, this time. 
 

 

The big issue here is that you come here complaining about stuff while trying to pin it on us and the F-14 community as if we're willfully trying to cheat by making the F-14 too good. All the while while presenting very poor evidence for your accusations. Constructive criticism is always welcome but being rude and just claiming stuff without backing it up will not get you far here.

 

And also, complaining about the AIM-54 range? What do you expect us to do? Shorten it to be comparable to the AIM-120 but completely unrealistic? Do you also complain about AIM-9s being shorter ranged than AIM-120s?

 

A little less of the insults, more facts and less complaining about stuff that's realistic as is and we'll be happy to hear you out.

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

But where do you see any insults (from my side?) 
I did call jester a 'clown', but jester is not a person , and jester literally means clown :d 

[Naquaii]

7 minutes ago, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

But where do you see any insults (from my side?) 
I did call jester a 'clown', but jester is not a person , and jester literally means clown :d 

 

You should probably start by reading the subject you put on this thread as you made it.

 

In any case, we will have a look at the ECM and the issue with HoJ against our jammer as pointed out by others. Especially now as the hornet soon to have its jammer.

 

Lets just leave it at that.

Edited January 18, 2021 by Naquaii

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

[captain_dalan]

I think maybe he just wants an AMRAAM implementation for the F-14, so everyone can have a fair game, but is too shy to openly ask for it, as the missile was never really  operationally fielded

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

Wellllll......If the F14 had amraams (instead of phoenix) i might even buy the module because flying with 2 people in one plane sounds like fun. 
But because of the aim54 it's not for me since i only fly pvp. 

Edited January 19, 2021 by Csgo GE oh yeah

[Xeno426]

On 1/17/2021 at 3:46 PM, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

Then it was the damage model (taking insane amounts of hits without getting any damage) (and it still takes way more damage then any other plane)

Clearly not aware of Polychop or RAZBAM's work on their aircraft while they were in early access as well.
C-101 can lose a nose and tailplanes but still fly fine.
Then there was the Hawk.

[Dragon1-1]

Well, the Viper shipped without any kind of damage model at EA launch. Then again, it seems like ED learned its lesson no to put too much "E" in "EA".  

 

Hopefully with the new damage model it'll get much better for all aircraft concerned.

[Xeno426]

7 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Well, the Viper shipped without any kind of damage model at EA launch. Then again, it seems like ED learned its lesson no to put too much "E" in "EA".  

 

Hopefully with the new damage model it'll get much better for all aircraft concerned.

I hope so. I'd look forward to a time when a hit sometimes leaves you with important equipment failures like primary navigation systems, forcing you to limp home on stuff like ADF.

[Dragon1-1]

It can already happen, I've had this sort of thing in the A-10. However, it seems it was implemented as a random roll, only somewhat related to where you actually got hit. Generally, I found hits from the tail and front usually made the engine quit, while hits on the belly seldom did much, I even took a MANPAD on the chin and kept flying, more than once.  However, they would sometimes wreck the gun or landing gear. Even on AI aircraft, I found that shooting up a big plane's fuselage seldom brought it down, while shooting out the engines brought on the black smoke and all that jazz. So it's already possible to some extent.

 

The new damage model is on a totally different level, though. Most notably, failure of the control systems, probably also less random (as in, more dependent on the location of the hit) avionics failures, which should make for a more realistic experience, especially for ground pounders like the A-10 that get shot at a lot. 

[DarkStar79]

On 1/18/2021 at 7:26 PM, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

But where do you see any insults (from my side?) 
I did call jester a 'clown', but jester is not a person , and jester literally means clown :d 

You really should test the F-14!  You are missing out flying the coolest plane in DCS!  And its so much fun to play as a RIO also!

Edited January 20, 2021 by Kristoffer79

[Whiskey11]

On 1/19/2021 at 8:36 AM, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

Wellllll......If the F14 had amraams (instead of phoenix) i might even buy the module because flying with 2 people in one plane sounds like fun. 
But because of the aim54 it's not for me since i only fly pvp. 

 

 

The AIM-54 is far from an I-Win button as well... it's not an AIM-120... you have to support it until it goes active.  Launching at long ranges is the ONLY way to safely engage with it and it has a surprisingly low PK against half aware targets.  As it is now, the missile does not smoothly travel in an arc... it lofts to whatever altitude and then sharply bleeds all of its energy as it turns to lock onto the target when commanded active.  This is not how the missile would behave in real life, but is a limitation of the DCS game engine and the missile API ED is using.  In PD-STT it's a SARH missile like a Sparrow... UNLIKE the AIM-120.  It CAN be launched maddog like an AIM-120, but it's not an easy missile to boresight launch and get successful hits with.  

I'm also extremely confused as to why a missile is the only reason you wont buy this aircraft... that's a pretty silly reason to not buy the aircraft.  No one is requiring you to carry and use them either... fly the F-14A in the A2G role then.  Fly it with only Sparrows and Sidewinders...

 

And if you ONLY fly PVP, wouldn't you want a missile you perceive as an "I-Win" button?  Nothing you are saying makes a whole lot of sense to be honest... your lack of experience in the airframe shows you don't truly understand the aircraft and its limitations... nor the missile it carries.  You are full of contradictions, which is why so many people here are calling you out as a troll.

[falcon_120]

Wellllll......If the F14 had amraams (instead of phoenix) i might even buy the module because flying with 2 people in one plane sounds like fun. 
But because of the aim54 it's not for me since i only fly pvp. 

You should try, it's not as easy as you might think given aim54 range. You will soon discover all the shortcomings of the f14 given the time frame difference. And you will understand that is actually difficult to fight with it against good pilots in PvP.

Enviado desde mi ELE-L29 mediante Tapatalk

[falcon_120]

Sorry double post

[IronMike]

On 1/18/2021 at 7:13 PM, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

Not that i wouldn't very much like it if DCS would become bigger in multiplayer in the future, but i don't think it's going to happen. The game just doesn't lend itself for PvP multiplayer. Co-op though, sure.

 

That's not true. The game lends itself to a plethora of MP PvP modes. It may not lend itself to the kind of PvP you imagine though, although, if supposedly CSGO is your blueprint for that, I would say it does even for that. What you mainly fail to realize, is that the sandbox character of DCS lends you the ability to create exactly the kind of PvP experience in MP that you like. The flipside of the coin is, that if you don't put in the work yourself to create a server that attracts enough ppl (and ultimately puts your idea of PvP to the test), you have to rely on what other server hosts offer. And they all have their own idea of what PvP is. A long lasting and successful one, I shall know, as I helped shape a major part of it myself. But, the possibilities are endless: you can have hardcore skill testing matches, just like in CSGO, where basically you have the same dudes with slightly differently skinned weapons and outfits on both sides, testing their reaction, situational awareness and what not. Just take a blue F16 against a red F16, and voila. Or whatever plane you want.. You can choose to test dissimilar matches, guns only, heaters only, semi actives only, radar missiles only, you can combine so many situations by now, with so many different weapons and aircraft: all you need is to come up with something, host it, and see if it attracts ppl. But ofc, the MP community has its own mind, too, and may or may not enjoy whatever you come up with. Most of the mainstream servers have grown over several years including a lot of player feedback, adjustments, balancing (mission balancing, not necessarily aircraft balancing) etc to tailor their experience towards their audience.

I remember days where my favourite thing was to fly a MiG-29G with r60s with 104th_MoGas and fool F15s into traps and shoot them down with the crappiest missile in the game - at a time where the aim120 still reached with 40nm full gimbal shots... Stuff like that can be fun. But what isn't fun in a sim, in most cases, is if you start bending realism towards a perceived "balance" that out of all the MP possibilities maybe fits just a single one. Every sim developer will refuse this right away, or it wouldnt be a sim else. It is not our job to cater to that, it is up to mission creators, all of whom are free to ban phoenixes on their servers, and so on and so forth. That most of them don't, might of course also have a reason. The old PvP crowd has always been wanting great adversity, this is why folks try and kill 4th gen fighters in F5s and MiG21s, etc... Others again want a dynamic campaign, others again want realistic comms, and so on and so forth...

Bugs are an issue of course, but simply a part of reality of an evolving platform. And all we can do is work on them, which we do. All you need to do, is to let us know.

In short, what I am saying is: try to open up to the many possibilities PvP offers and try to explore and learn the many fun sides it can have, if you give it a chance with an open mind. My best advice: fly with others and fly for the fun, not for the kill.

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

On 1/20/2021 at 9:26 PM, Whiskey11 said:

 

The AIM-54 is far from an I-Win button as well... it's not an AIM-120... you have to support it until it goes active.  Launching at long ranges is the ONLY way to safely engage with it and it has a surprisingly low PK against half aware targets.  As it is now, the missile does not smoothly travel in an arc... it lofts to whatever altitude and then sharply bleeds all of its energy as it turns to lock onto the target when commanded active.  This is not how the missile would behave in real life, but is a limitation of the DCS game engine and the missile API ED is using.  In PD-STT it's a SARH missile like a Sparrow... UNLIKE the AIM-120.  It CAN be launched maddog like an AIM-120, but it's not an easy missile to boresight launch and get successful hits with.  

I'm also extremely confused as to why a missile is the only reason you wont buy this aircraft... that's a pretty silly reason to not buy the aircraft.  No one is requiring you to carry and use them either... fly the F-14A in the A2G role then.  Fly it with only Sparrows and Sidewinders...

 

And if you ONLY fly PVP, wouldn't you want a missile you perceive as an "I-Win" button?  Nothing you are saying makes a whole lot of sense to be honest... your lack of experience in the airframe shows you don't truly understand the aircraft and its limitations... nor the missile it carries.  You are full of contradictions, which is why so many people here are calling you out as a troll.

The range and speed difference of the phoenix would (to me) feel like i was using an exploit or something. I (personally) do not want to take the aim54 into PVP because of the above. 
All missiles in DCS have their imperfections, but a 'non smooth' trajectory or the fact that you have to guide it until active (seems normal for aim120 as well?) do not compensate for those two huge factors (2x range and 2x speed) 

And why would i want an 'i win' missile for pvp ? Not everybody is like that. When i'm flying pvp i want to test my sense of space/energy, timing ,and wits against another person. 
I do not want to be lobbing missiles from complete safety and hope wait untill one hits and RTB. 
But that is what most F14 players do unfortunately. I literally see them take off, get to altidude, spam from safe distance and RTB.
This doesn't do a WHOLE lot for them most of the time, but it does disrupt the good fights other people are having. 

So the phoenix missile, in my opionion doesn't really fit into pvp very well in the first place. 
Then, if you add the past en current (quite terrible OP bugs) that just seem to keep happening , well i think that's a shame. 

And @IronMikeabout the balancing of the server admins. That's not completely fair. 
Servers want people in them. Banning a particular plane or missile could very well cost the server players. 
A very real example, was when the phoenix would give absolutely no active warning. 
The missile was rightfully banned on that server until the issue was resolved, but that change was reversed because a few regulars F14 peeps (it's not a very busy server lately) started complaining . 
Their reasoning literally was "if you see 14 nails you should run anyway muhahahah" . I can only roll my eyes at such comments but from that point we had 60nm phoenixes in the air that never gave an active warning. 

If a server admin has to choose between a filled server with a not so good experience for everybody, versus a less populated server with a better experience they will most of the time choose the former. 
So you can't really put it all on server admins i guess. 

There's only a few people playing multiplayer DCS , and only a handfull of populated servers. 

 

 

Edited January 22, 2021 by Csgo GE oh yeah

[Lurker]

You're just repeating yourself Csgo GE oh yeah, the fact of the matter is that it's much harder to use the Phoenix in battle than you think it is. First of all, the AWG9 is quite prone to notching, much more so than the other more modern radars in the game. TWS-A is also very prone to losing tracks, especially against maneuvering targets. Once a track is lost, even if only for a second or so, the missile is trashed. It's extremely easy to defend against these long range shots unless you lack SA, but that is on you. Finally the missile was designed to be a long range missile, it's supposed to have a higher reach, which is exactly the point IronMike and everyone else here is trying to make, but one that you consistently keep disregarding. That's on you. 

 

The bugs will get ironed out, and resolved as eventually they all do. However I'm 99% sure that even then you will be unsatisfied because of the same childish reasons you go into detail here on the forums. That too, will be on you. No one else. If everyone else is enjoying a simulation game, and you are the only one who thinks that this is unfair, and should be changed, then who do you think is in the right? You or the majority? If you really hate it why are you here? There are servers out there that ban the F14 or the Phoenix, go play on them and be glad that they exist or else go complain to the server admins that do feature the F14 and the Phoenix, see what they tell you. 

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

I honestly don't think you read my post at all, but just came here to hurl insults and be butthurt. 
You come here and go about how the phoenix isn't perfect , completely ignoring my previous post where i said : 

""But that is what most F14 players do unfortunately. I literally see them take off, get to altidude, spam from safe distance and RTB.
This doesn't do a WHOLE lot for them most of the time, but it does disrupt the good fights other people are having. 

 

Then about the 'higher reach'. Yes, they are meant for more reach (vs bombers as far as i've read but that's besides the point), and because of this reach discrepancy, it is MY OPINION that it doesn't fit in multiplayer very well. 
Why are you so salted about that ? You may not agree , fine but you could be a bit less bitchy about it couldn't you ? 

About the bugs you seem to be like "oh well it's just bugs" , but in my opinion all these bugs were quite serious and very detrimental to online gameplay. 
If you don't agree, again that's fine but there really is no need for the insults. 

Your tone is extremely unpleasant. Maybe that's why some people (they are around, trust me) might think there's no room for a differing opinion about bringing a 2x range + 2x speed missile into multiplayer complete with game breaking bugs.  

You should try to not get so upset when people don't exactly agree with you.