sigh .... Apparently another 'thing' with the F14 , this time it's ECM makes it completely immune to amraams, R77's and 27R's. Great...

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

The ECM probably does NOT have this effect vs the F14's own phoenix missiles ? I wonder how that is possible ... 

Edited January 16, 2021 by Csgo GE oh yeah

[near_blind]

Did you miss the part where every jammer causes this, the part where it effects every missile that's had the new API updates is affected (so ***not the R-77 and R-27***), or just the whole gist in general before immediately jumping to the "accuse Heatblur" phase of your rant?

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

Well it happens only with the F14 , AND on top of that, the phoenix is NOT affected.

 

 

Edited January 16, 2021 by Csgo GE oh yeah

[near_blind]

 

18 minutes ago, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

Well it happens only with the F14

 

 

Quote

Well, I just tested this against the M2000 & F-15 in PvP and the same thing happens.

 

[Naquaii]

2 hours ago, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

Well it happens only with the F14 , AND on top of that, the phoenix is NOT affected.

 

 

 

If you want us to take you seriously I suggest you stop inferring that we would malicously try to make the F-14 better than any other aircraft as this is simply not the case and something bordering on conspiracy theories. Everything we do is to make our F-14 as realistic as we possibly can within the limits of DCS or simulation in general.

 

Like was mentioned in the original thread our ecm only differs in that we implemented it to automatically switch on and off as needed but it is still the very same ecm as any other current aircraft in DCS. In fact, if you switched on and off your ecm in an fc3 aircraft you'd likely get the exact same effect.

 

This is likely some previously undected bug in the newer missile apis and out of our hands but if ED want us to change anything or help them debug it we will ofc do that.

Edited January 16, 2021 by Naquaii

[dundun92]

3 hours ago, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

Well it happens only with the F14 , AND on top of that, the phoenix is NOT affected.

Its not F-14 only, and AIM-54 isnt tha only unaffected missile. Just stop with the conspiracies, its helping nobody

[Q3ark]

Dude really hates the Tomcat doesn't he 

[Grater Tovakia]

Disco, your never ending hatred against the tomcat will never fail to amuse me.

[Skysurfer]

I love how you never provide any sort of evidence in the forms of tracks, videos, constructive discription or tacviews for any of your claims. Let it go dude. Like I said previously, uninstall the game and go do something else and not waste everyone's time with this. I know exactly who you are now.

Edited January 17, 2021 by Skysurfer

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

I do indeed not like the F14 at all.   
It's fine for single player but the range difference is kind of bad for multiplayer because it's hell to balance a mission around that range difference, or at the least it's difficult to make fun missions that doesn't end up in F14's just spamming from way out of reach every other aircraft . 

But, my hatred towards the F14 started with the missile 'scandal'. (that huge thread)

Then it was the damage model (taking insane amounts of hits without getting any damage) (and it still takes way more damage then any other plane)

Then the chaff resistance which was altered to be on par with aim 120 because god knows why , (but turned out even better because when reversed HB forgot to reverse theirs when ED did.  
Then the missile never gave an active warning in TWS for a while
I also don't like that clown in the back auto-doing everything (auto chaff, auto flares, auto radar) 
And now this  ...

But, seeing as the mirage also has this and it's not only the F14,  my bias (i guess) made me be to hasty this time. 

I really do hope that this gets fixed real soon. 
 

 

 

 

 

[Skysurfer]

44 minutes ago, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

I do indeed not like the F14 at all.   
It's fine for single player but the range difference is kind of bad for multiplayer because it's hell to balance a mission around that range difference, or at the least it's difficult to make fun missions that doesn't end up in F14's just spamming from way out of reach every other aircraft . 

But, my hatred towards the F14 started with the missile 'scandal'. (that huge thread)

Then it was the damage model (taking insane amounts of hits without getting any damage) (and it still takes way more damage then any other plane)

Then the chaff resistance which was altered to be on par with aim 120 because god knows why , (but turned out even better because when reversed HB forgot to reverse theirs when ED did.  
Then the missile never gave an active warning in TWS for a while
I also don't like that clown in the back auto-doing everything (auto chaff, auto flares, auto radar) 
And now this  ...

But, seeing as the mirage also has this and it's not only the F14,  my bias (i guess) made me be to hasty this time. 

I really do hope that this gets fixed real soon. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

I've said it numerous times and I'll say it one last time, this isn't CSGO or a competitive FPS game in plane form, there is no place for balance or gameplay-adjustments for the sake of some inferiority complex. Each plane should be faithfully modeled and represented within the realms and possibilities of DCS. Missiles as a whole have been broken for a year now anyway and you can't say that before the Tomcat the AMRAAM wasn't outranging and doing exactly what you describe the Phoenix does. Let alone the fact that most airframes to this day are unjammable. A Mirage or Mig-21 wont get "adjusted" for balance so it can all of a sudden compete with a F-15 or Hornet at BVR. There is also a *lot* more to BVR combat and missile employment than whoever gets the longest range stick and biggest radar dish. You know nothing and none of your claims ever turn out to be true. Sometimes it's better to just say nothing and listen. 

 

And to top it all off, you don't even own the F-14 so how do you know how "easy" it is to eploy in a PvP environment? Go get it, try it out yourself with some actual experience and statistical data and go tell everyone how absurdly easy it is to use, how it has all the advantages imaginable online and how the Phoenix is a "I win" button in DCS. It will 100% be an eye-opening experience.

Edited January 17, 2021 by Skysurfer

[Naquaii]

33 minutes ago, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

I do indeed not like the F14 at all.   
It's fine for single player but the range difference is kind of bad for multiplayer because it's hell to balance a mission around that range difference, or at the least it's difficult to make fun missions that doesn't end up in F14's just spamming from way out of reach every other aircraft . 

But, my hatred towards the F14 started with the missile 'scandal'. (that huge thread)

Then it was the damage model (taking insane amounts of hits without getting any damage) (and it still takes way more damage then any other plane)

Then the chaff resistance which was altered to be on par with aim 120 because god knows why , (but turned out even better because when reversed HB forgot to reverse theirs when ED did.  
Then the missile never gave an active warning in TWS for a while
I also don't like that clown in the back auto-doing everything (auto chaff, auto flares, auto radar) 
And now this  ...

But, seeing as the mirage also has this and it's not only the F14,  my bias (i guess) made me be to hasty this time. 

I really do hope that this gets fixed real soon. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

So you want us to nerf the AIM-54 because it has an unfair range advantage? Not sure were you want to take that line of reasoning, we're not ever going to "balance" the F-14 against some notion of a "fair" aircraft to aircraft fight, we're always going to aim for making it as realistic as possible. If you want a 1:1 capability match-up use the same aircraft on each side.

 

You're also making a lot of assumptions about our tuning of the missiles and it is true that we put the chaff resistance of the AIM-54C as being close to an AIM-120B as, frankly it seems to have had a lot in common. And no, we didn't "forget" to reverse our chaff resistance settings. We were trying to make sense of the changes and were playing catch-up as we weren't told and in at least one case we did change it only to find out that that same patch changed the way it worked once more.

 

And I think you quite accurately described what a RIO ("Clown"? I think there's quite a few people who would take offense at that statement.) should do. What would you prefer? To actively force the RIO chair empty? Afaik there's quite a few other aircraft that has auto rwr and countermeasure systems?

 

Frankly? We're always open to constructive criticism and willing to change our minds but what you're saying and inferring is a bit unfair and quite disrespectful honestly.

[Sideburns]

17 hours ago, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

I do indeed not like the F14 at all.   
It's fine for single player but the range difference is kind of bad for multiplayer because it's hell to balance a mission around that range difference, or at the least it's difficult to make fun missions that doesn't end up in F14's just spamming from way out of reach every other aircraft . 

But, my hatred towards the F14 started with the missile 'scandal'. (that huge thread)

Then it was the damage model (taking insane amounts of hits without getting any damage) (and it still takes way more damage then any other plane)

Then the chaff resistance which was altered to be on par with aim 120 because god knows why , (but turned out even better because when reversed HB forgot to reverse theirs when ED did.  
Then the missile never gave an active warning in TWS for a while
I also don't like that clown in the back auto-doing everything (auto chaff, auto flares, auto radar) 
And now this  ...

But, seeing as the mirage also has this and it's not only the F14,  my bias (i guess) made me be to hasty this time. 

I really do hope that this gets fixed real soon. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

Where to start with this, unsure if troll or serious....

 

"It's fine for single player but the range difference is kind of bad for multiplayer because it's hell to balance a mission around that range difference"

This is a flight simulator not Warthunder, while some servers may try to balance the sides each aircraft is intended to be an accurate simulation of the real life aircraft. For what it is worth the Phoenix despite it's range does need to be supported by a valid TWS track, which are easy to lose, to have a good chance of hitting otherwise it is likely to miss. It is also a large missile and loses energy quickly at low altitudes. It is not a silver bullet but when used correctly under the right conditions it's capabilities are awesome and should be respected. A fast and high AMRAAM launcher can be a credible threat to the F14 with Phoenix.

 

"Various past and current issues described"

Module is in early access and as stated the DCS core is in a constant state of flux, it has been difficult for HB to get things perfectly right when the foundations are changing without notice. Also the F14 is not the only module to have weapons or damage model issues, most modules have had these issues at some point. To HB's credit they are typically fairly rapid with fixes.

 

"I also don't like that clown in the back auto-doing everything (auto chaff, auto flares, auto radar)"

If you are complaining about Jester, while Jester is an amazing achievement he is not perfect and a real human RIO is better. It can be tricky to guide him in the middle of a fight for actions a human RIO would do automatically. The biggest complaint you can realistically make against Jester atm is that he calls out missile launces from far away (both enemy and friendly missile launches I believe!) In time these issues will hopefully be fixed. If you are complaining about having two crew members in the F14 this was a deliberate design choice based on Vietnam combat experience and lack of systems automation to enable a suitable workload for one pilot/crew member. You might as well complain to the US Navy and 1960s radar technology for this.

Edited January 18, 2021 by Sideburns
Readability and typos

[DD_Fenrir]

Quite.

 

Sounds very much like he thinks that a BVR fight against me in my F-14 involves driving straight at me until he's in RNE range of his own missiles - in which case he's only got his own (considerable) ignorance to blame when I repeatedly blow his naive butt out from under him.

 

 

[TaxDollarsAtWork]

On 1/16/2021 at 4:47 PM, Naquaii said:

Like was mentioned in the original thread our ecm only differs in that we implemented it to automatically switch on and off as needed but it is still the very same ecm as any other current aircraft in DCS. In fact, if you switched on and off your ecm in an fc3 aircraft you'd likely get the exact same effect.

 

This is likely some previously undected bug in the newer missile apis and out of our hands but if ED want us to change anything or help them debug it we will ofc do that.

 

Not quite, the ECM in SP and MP currently 'blinks' by turning off and on quickly which ends up with an inability for the Jammed plane to put a HOJ shot out.

ED decided then to add a 15 second warm up time every time ECM was turned on. Will you be adding this to the Tomcat anytime soon?

 

Also on the topic of Jamming the F/A-18 is getting the ability to jam and be jammed soon, and its very likely the F-16 will too.

 

Do you plan to make the F-14's radar be affected by jammers and jam people in the same way as these other ED modules?

 

[Naquaii]

1 minute ago, TaxDollarsAtWork said:

Not quite, the ECM in SP and MP currently 'blinks' by turning off and on quickly which ends up with an inability for the Jammed plane to put a HOJ shot out.

ED decided then to add a 15 second warm up time every time ECM was turned on. Will you be adding this to the Tomcat anytime soon?

 

Also on the topic of Jamming the F/A-18 is getting the ability to jam and be jammed soon, and its very likely the F-16 will too.

 

Do you plan to make the F-14's radar be affected by jammers and jam people in the same way as these other ED modules?

 

 

Right, now this is interesting information. If it is indeed blinking on and off rapidly that is not how it is intended to work afaik. I'll make a tracker internally to have us investigate that. Nothing has changed on our side but it could be some new behaviour in the triggering conditions that didn't exist when it was programmed. Having a warmup time for the jammer apart from when you turn the system on is not something we're likely to add as it would be quite a poor jammer if it had to warmup for 15 secs each time you want to emit.

 

We do intend to make the AWG-9 show and be affected by jamming, this has always been on the todo list. DCS being somewhat limited in regards to ECM we're likely going to have a look at how ED themselves are implementing it in their aircraft and how that will affect ours.

[Southernbear]

I can't ***wait*** for TrueGrit to release their Eurofighter Typhoon with it's MBDA Meteor with it's 60+nmi range and 37nmi no escape zone (50% chance of kill against a 9G manoeuvring target with countermeasures according to NATO standard) and its IRIS-T Missiles with not only the PIRATE IRST system to lock them up without needing a radar RWR warning BUT also the 360 degree, over the shoulder high off bore sight missile shots and see people complain then...if your already getting annoyed at the Tomcat. 

 

the Eurofighter will finally will make the score boards irrelevant. Perhaps maybe then the F-14 won't seem so bad to you

I look forward to cooling my afterburners with the tears of the "Competitive" Crowd when she shows up.

[GGTharos]

5 hours ago, Naquaii said:

 

Right, now this is interesting information. If it is indeed blinking on and off rapidly that is not how it is intended to work afaik. I'll make a tracker internally to have us investigate that. Nothing has changed on our side but it could be some new behaviour in the triggering conditions that didn't exist when it was programmed. Having a warmup time for the jammer apart from when you turn the system on is not something we're likely to add as it would be quite a poor jammer if it had to warmup for 15 secs each time you want to emit.

 

We do intend to make the AWG-9 show and be affected by jamming, this has always been on the todo list. DCS being somewhat limited in regards to ECM we're likely going to have a look at how ED themselves are implementing it in their aircraft and how that will affect ours.

 

The problem is the ECM/ECCM representation in DCS, it's not the F-14's problem overall.  How fast the ECM switches on/off should literally not matter.   Realistically we're talking hundreds of pulses a second intended to break track.   Some things may be more or less bothered by it, but the basic ECCM functions would be to attempt to home in on this transmission or hop frequencies and PRFs and of course re-initiate the seeker search as necessary.   You can probably appreciate that while it is very possible to implement all that, it's hardly trivial.

[ustio]

7 hours ago, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

I do indeed not like the F14 at all.   
It's fine for single player but the range difference is kind of bad for multiplayer because it's hell to balance a mission around that range difference, or at the least it's difficult to make fun missions that doesn't end up in F14's just spamming from way out of reach every other aircraft . 

But, my hatred towards the F14 started with the missile 'scandal'. (that huge thread)

Then it was the damage model (taking insane amounts of hits without getting any damage) (and it still takes way more damage then any other plane)

Then the chaff resistance which was altered to be on par with aim 120 because god knows why , (but turned out even better because when reversed HB forgot to reverse theirs when ED did.  
Then the missile never gave an active warning in TWS for a while
I also don't like that clown in the back auto-doing everything (auto chaff, auto flares, auto radar) 
And now this  ...

But, seeing as the mirage also has this and it's not only the F14,  my bias (i guess) made me be to hasty this time. 

I really do hope that this gets fixed real soon. 
 

 

 

 

 

clearly you don't have the tomcat because you have no idea what you are talking about

[QuiGon]

8 hours ago, TaxDollarsAtWork said:

ED decided then to add a 15 second warm up time every time ECM was turned on. Will you be adding this to the Tomcat anytime soon?

 

The F-14 jammer already has a 1-2 minute warmup time, when the system gets turned on. After that point it is warmed up and switching between REC (passive moce) and XMIT (active mode) doesn't need any additonal warmup.

[Lurker]

Troll level 11\10. Seriously, the F14 is anything BUT an "I Win" button, and if he isn't trolling, he should really know that. Hence, my conclusion that he is indeed trolling and we have just fallen for his bait. 

[TaxDollarsAtWork]

1 hour ago, QuiGon said:

 

The F-14 jammer already has a 1-2 minute warmup time, when the system gets turned on. After that point it is warmed up and switching between REC (passive moce) and XMIT (active mode) doesn't need any additonal warmup.

That's the problem the quick automatic transitions between passive and active make it so that the Jammer 'blinks'.

 

This messes with the missile and radar API so that it doesn't work how ED intended ECM to behave.

 

Its behavior should be made similar to the upcoming F/A-18 Jammer or F-15, closer to how ED wants it to behave.

 

Edited January 18, 2021 by TaxDollarsAtWork

[QuiGon]

8 minutes ago, TaxDollarsAtWork said:

That's the problem the quick automatic transitions between passive and active make it so that the Jammer 'blinks'.

 

Uhm, that's not automatic. You have to manually move the knob in the cockpit back and forth to switch back and forth between REC and XMIT.

My understanding from the issue report was, that the jammer itself blinks on its own when it is set to XMIT (active mode).

Edited January 18, 2021 by QuiGon

[Slant]

16 hours ago, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

I do indeed not like the F14 at all.   
It's fine for single player but the range difference is kind of bad for multiplayer because it's hell to balance a mission around that range difference, or at the least it's difficult to make fun missions that doesn't end up in F14's just spamming from way out of reach every other aircraft . 

 

 

Congratulations, you just described the very reason the US had Grumman design the F-14 the way it is. Well done. Now that you have understood how a realistic depiction of the F-14's premise works, would you like to try again?

 

I find these discussions interesting in that it makes me think about military research and development and I came to the conclusion very quickly that the whole underlying point of military R&D is to be as unbalanced, cheesy and unfair to the other side as possible. So complaining about study level simulation and saying it's "a hell to balance" is pretty comical, if you'll forgive me the assessment.

Edited January 18, 2021 by Slant

[Jonne]

2 hours ago, QuiGon said:

Uhm, that's not automatic. You have to manually move the knob in the cockpit back and forth to switch back and forth between REC and XMIT.

 

It is automatic. Per maunal, with the switch in RPT, the jammer will only start transmitting when a threat is detected. I guess this is where the problem arises, as threats are not detected properly leading to the blinking behaviour. Anyway apart from the blinking Tomcat, problems are amplified as all missiles using the AMRAAM API, for example the SD-10, currently experience a bug where they will be forced to HOJ when a target is jamming. More info here: 

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/258449-chk-sd-10-cant-track-jamming-target-at-all-multiplayer-only/?tab=comments#comment-4540453

 

 

Basically Gen 4 A2A is thus useless currently. Now if only the stable version of DCS would not actually be identical currently and thus have the very same major game breaking bug. Atleast its not as bad as the Laser Maverick CTD was.

Edited January 18, 2021 by Jonne