resolved Aim-120, Aim-7MH, SD-10 produce 0% hit chance against non-manuevering hot target with blinking ECM+chaff

[HWasp]

Please see the attached track (latest OB), other missiles may be affected.

 

R-27R, 530D (for example) are NOT affected.

aim120ecmbug2.trk aim120ecmbug2.trk

[Harker]

I had to test this for myself. Hopped in an F-14B against 4 Vipers loaded with AMRAAMs. Kept flying straight, turned on the jammer and popped 1 or 2 chaff for every AIM-120C coming my way. None of them hit, not even one. Shots from 5NM away went for chaff. Some missiles pulled 25G in order to turn towards the chaff.

[QuiGon]

That seems like a major game breaking bug to me, probably making multiplayer very unenjoyable once everyone is aware of this.

[Cmptohocah]

4 hours ago, QuiGon said:

That seems like a major game breaking bug to me, probably making multiplayer very unenjoyable once everyone is aware of this.

User-flown Flaming Cliffs 3 aircraft can't blink their ECM as they have a 10 second timer between switching the ECM on and it actually emitting.

[Harker]

Never mind MP, my test was against 4 AI Vipers in SP. It's completely game-breaking. You're practically invulnerable in an F-14, against these missiles.

And to make it clear, it's not the F-14 that has the problem, it's the missiles and the fact that their ECCM is non existent.

Edited January 14, 2021 by Harker

[Lurker]

Hell I never ever even tried turning on my jammer in the F14B, didn't know it had one

[SgtPappy]

This is the same bug I've reported in This thread where I tested it online and it is unfortunately difficult to fight anyone in the F-14 as a result. R-77 and R-27ER are unaffected by this bug. It happens with the F-14 since the jammer automatically blinks unlike the other jammers but is otherwise the same as the other jammers. The issue appears to be all the missiles which have had a recent API update which still affects them past burn through.

 

Of course it happens vs AI as well but AI missiles and countermeasures work differently. 

 

EDIT: I found that the R-27R is affected but the ER is not. I'll have to look at OP's tracks after work. 

Edited January 14, 2021 by SgtPappy

[GGTharos]

On 1/14/2021 at 8:20 AM, Cmptohocah said:

User-flown Flaming Cliffs 3 aircraft can't blink their ECM as they have a 10 second timer between switching the ECM on and it actually emitting.

 

For all the incessant whining about this, let's make sure we all know what turning on ECM does in the game:  It sets the 'ECM' flag of that aircraft to ON.  That is the one and only message that is sent over the network, and nothing else.  Missiles don't care about your timer, if the ECM is on, it is on.   And it affects all missiles the same.

Let's put it another way:  There is zero variety in how missiles handle ECM.

 

And further, ignoring that 'removing the timer' would result is 10-50hz blinking which is exactly what people would script their ecm to do, the issue here isn't even that ECM flag but rather what the missile does after its lock is broken.

Edited January 17, 2021 by GGTharos

[HWasp]

Could we just agree, that this is simply a potentially game breaking bug, that currently anyone can easily abuse for complete invulnerabilty against most radar guided missiles?
 

Would be nice if ED would acknowlede this and fix asap.

 

 

[QuiGon]

2 hours ago, HWasp said:

Could we just agree, that this is simply a potentially game breaking bug, that currently anyone can easily abuse for complete invulnerabilty against most radar guided missiles?
 

Would be nice if ED would acknowlede this and fix asap.

 

This

Edited January 18, 2021 by QuiGon

[Sideburns]

I guess a quick fix would just be to at least universally disable ECM for now until this can be resolved. Not ideal but would at least mean the bug is removed.

 

Edit: I guess mission makers could create a fault for the ECM on jets, but this would be quite labour intensive and could then be resolved with a repair.

Edited January 18, 2021 by Sideburns

[GGTharos]

15 minutes ago, Sideburns said:

I guess a quick fix would just be to at least universally disable ECM for now until this can be resolved. Not ideal but would at least mean the bug is removed.

 

A quick fix is to have missiles switch between HoJ and STT generally instead of disabling ECM.  Basically do not allow them to lose lock.   It still makes missiles less effective if they have to switch, but it doesn't make them 100% useless.  

[Ikaros]

On 1/14/2021 at 8:35 AM, Lurker said:

Hell I never ever even tried turning on my jammer in the F14B, didn't know it had one

Can you even turn on the jammer in the F-14 if you're flying with just Jester? It never lets me switch to the RIO seat in flight in multiplayer.

[TotenDead]

Use STT, not TWS

35 минут назад, GGTharos сказал:

 

A quick fix is to have missiles switch between HoJ and STT generally instead of disabling ECM.  Basically do not allow them to lose lock.   It still makes missiles less effective if they have to switch, but it doesn't make them 100% useless.  

Is that realistic?

[dundun92]

1 hour ago, TotenDead said:

Is that realistic?

Its not, but the net effect is much more realistic than the current broken implementation

[SgtPappy]

22 hours ago, GGTharos said:

 

For all the incessant whining about this, let's make sure we all know what turning on ECM does in the game:  It sets the 'ECM' flag of that aircraft to ON.  That is the one and only message that is sent over the network, and nothing else.  Missiles don't care about your timer, if the ECM is on, it is on.   And it affects all missiles the same.

Let's put it another way:  There is zero variety in how missiles handle ECM.

 

And further, ignoring that 'removing the timer' would result is 10-50hz blinking which is exactly what people would script their ecm to do, the issue here isn't even that ECM flag but rather what the missile does after its lock is broken.

 

This is interesting and I'm not surprised it is actually quite a simple message. Good to know.

 

All we know is that is experimentally shown that a target with blinking ECM that is dropping chaff coincides with missiles missing at that target. The inner workings aren't known well but these appear to be cause and effect. 

[GGTharos]

1 hour ago, TotenDead said:

Use STT, not TWS

Is that realistic?

 

It's just the fastest stop-gap and used to be part of the missile code, so it may still be there.  I meant STT on the missile's end, as in ok, we don't really have 'search after losing lock' implemented in the sense that a missile can fight a jammer ... but that would take longer to implement.  IMHO.   

Edited January 18, 2021 by GGTharos

[Sideburns]

2 hours ago, GGTharos said:

 

A quick fix is to have missiles switch between HoJ and STT generally instead of disabling ECM.  Basically do not allow them to lose lock.   It still makes missiles less effective if they have to switch, but it doesn't make them 100% useless.  

 

Have you have seen the DCS source code or otherwise know the inner workings of DCS to make such a statement?

[Santi871]

Reported

[GGTharos]

33 minutes ago, Sideburns said:

 

Have you have seen the DCS source code or otherwise know the inner workings of DCS to make such a statement?

 

No, I've only seen how it's worked since 2005.   I don't need to see the code to be aware of its behavior.

[TotenDead]

2 часа назад, GGTharos сказал:

 

It's just the fastest stop-gap and used to be part of the missile code, so it may still be there.  I meant STT on the missile's end, as in ok, we don't really have 'search after losing lock' implemented in the sense that a missile can fight a jammer ... but that would take longer to implement.  IMHO.   

 

If i got it right, if you launch in STT you can still Hit even if your enemy jams. If so then no temporary imaginary solutions are needed as they arent realistic and would only add more fiction to our game

[SgtPappy]

39 minutes ago, TotenDead said:

If i got it right, if you launch in STT you can still Hit even if your enemy jams. If so then no temporary imaginary solutions are needed as they arent realistic and would only add more fiction to our game

Well that's not exactly correct. Gaming inherently has limitations so one would need to work within those limitations to have the desired effect. 

 

The assumption here is that the missiles cannot lose lock or do other unintentional maneuvers at close range on a hot target. If that is fulfilled, what does it matter if the Blackbox workings aren't known to the player? ECM today is limited and is so classified that it would be difficult to implement, but ED is working on it regardless. 

 

After all we can't feel real blackouts at 9G while sitting in our gaming chair so the blackout we have in the game is manufactured to simulate that within limitations of the game and today's commercially available technology.

[dundun92]

Thats not correct, STT vs TWS has zero difference. The issue has to do with the missile once its already active

[TotenDead]

Okay, then for the time being you could stick to aim-7, i guess

[Jonne]

26 minutes ago, TotenDead said:

Okay, then for the time being you could stick to aim-7, i guess

 

Works well until you face the AIM-54, which is the only Fox 3 not affected. In the JF-17 you are down to heaters.

 

This really is a major issue and I guess it is also present in the stable version, due to them being equal at the time.