need track replay Russian ECM not working.

[Sol 1 Mihaly]

With the constant NATO plane updates on ECM..

.

 

Is there a reason why Russian ECMs only work against the F-15C and no other bluefor aircraft? 

 

At first, I gave the benefit of the doubt that it was a bug, only then to realize that the F/A 18, F-14 ECM, etc effect the Flankers & Fulcrums. 

 

This made me realize that blue ECMs are updated and effect our planes but our MIGs and Flankers ECM have 0 affect on them besides the F-15C. 

 

Is there Putin Sekrit Documents that tell us that Russkis only have effective ECMs against The Eagle. Why has this not been updated if you are going to keep updating the viper and hornet? 

 

Why is there absolutely 0 attention to Russian planes now? You update the amraam but refuse to update russian modules and missles, this also includes ECM. 

 

Why should my Flanker be effected by ECM but it have 0 effect on Vipers and Hornets? 

Edited January 11, 2021 by Sol 1 Mihaly

[Cmptohocah]

4 minutes ago, Sol 1 Mihaly said:

With the constant NATO plane updates on ECM..

.

 

Is there a reason why Russian ECMs only work against the F-15C and no other bluefor aircraft? 

 

At first, I gave the benefit of the doubt that it was a bug, only then to realize that the F/A 18, F-14 ECM, etc effect the Flankers & Fulcrums. 

 

This made me realize that blue ECMs are updated and effect our planes but our MIGs and Flankers ECM have 0 effect on them besides the F-15C. 

 

Is there Putin Sekrit Documents that tell us that Russkis only have effective ECMs against The Eagle. Why has this not been updated if you are going to keep updating the viper and hornet? 

 

The reason is that F-15C is a Flaming Cliffs airplane, so the following is true to all FC3 fighters in respect to radar jamming:

• they can be jammed by other (FC3 and non-FC3) aircraft
• they can jam only other FC3 aircraft

It's basically a "I am affected by other's ECM, but others aren't by mine" kind of a thing.

 

Why is this the case? Well, that's another topic, which I would rather not get into.

[Sol 1 Mihaly]

3 minutes ago, Cmptohocah said:

The reason is that F-15C is a Flaming Cliffs airplane, so the following is true to all FC3 fighters in respect to radar jamming:

• they can be jammed by other (FC3 and non-FC3) aircraft
• they can jam only other FC3 aircraft

It's basically a "I am affected by other's ECM, but others aren't by mine" kind of a thing.

 

Why is this the case? Well, that's another topic, which I would rather not get into.

Thats not simulation, thats bullshit and I'm going to call it out for what it is, NATO bias. 

 

If that is the case, remove ECM effects for the MIGs and Flankers since those planes are not FC3. 

 

Why should their product give them an advantage while ED refuses to update the russian modules. 

 

I shouldnt have to deal with the massive advantages they gain in multiplayer while my features do not work on them. 

 

There would be a shit storm if the shoe was on the other foot. 

Edited January 11, 2021 by Sol 1 Mihaly

[DD_Fenrir]

Waaaaahmbulance please on aisle 2.

Ooh, it's looking serious - better bring extra tin foil hats as well! 

[Sol 1 Mihaly]

5 minutes ago, DD_Fenrir said:

Waaaaahmbulance please on aisle 2.

Here come the NATO shills and bots. 

 

I remember when ED said the AIM 120C was accurate and told everyone to pound sand. 

 

Then the SD-10 was released and actually preformed better than the 120c. The entire bluefor club cried for weeks, causing a massive shitstorm and ED updated the 120c within months after they back tracked. 

 

Then they put russian missles on last things to update, if ever at all. 

 

Talk about cry babies? Go away. The bluefor bias is beyond cringe. 

 

DCS World has become NATO world simulator. 

 

Not all of us have a circle jerk around bluefor. 

 

Edited January 11, 2021 by Sol 1 Mihaly

[DD_Fenrir]

Whatever. The only shrill tired voices peddling the same old tired manure with absolutely zero evidential data to back up their rancid little attitudes comes from your rabid band of delusional fanatics - as resoundingly proved by your OP. Because if you understood anything about the ECM jamming in DCS is that tactically it provides you with little to no advantage at all. You always get burn through before realistic max weapons range and any advantage you may have thought you had by altitude masking can quickly be negated by healthy application of the left hand on the part of your erstwhile opponent. It's pretty damn useless to everyone.

 

But, no, of course, you're right, it's EDs personal vendetta against you cos you like Russian aircraft.

 

Seriously, do have any comprehension as to how asinine that sounds?

Edited January 11, 2021 by DD_Fenrir

[Jonne]

19 minutes ago, DD_Fenrir said:

Because if you understood anything about the ECM jamming in DCS is that tactically it provides you with little to no advantage at all. You always get burn through before realistic max weapons range and any advantage you may have thought you had by altitude masking can quickly be negated by healthy application of the left hand on the part of your erstwhile opponent. It's pretty damn useless to everyone.

 

I beg to differ on that part. In a scenario where you face more than one bandit, you will want to have your TWS working, which it does not in case of one or more bandits jamming. Just encountered this situation in the JF-17 against two F-14, both with their jammer on.

 

To explain the original problem in DCS, jamming is really very simple made. The emitting aircraft has a simple jammer on/off flag. Nothing more is modelled on that site. It is up to the jammed module of what is done with that information. In the case of the F-14/16/18 the answer is: NOTHING. All other radar equipped aircraft interpret jamming as loss of range information with different visual effects and most importantly the inability of using TWS, if present. Now why no jamming effects are moduled in the three full fidelity teen series fighters remains unanswered, I do have my grief with the fact that they recieved the ability to jam, while not being able to be jammed.

[DD_Fenrir]

And Matt Wagner just released a video showing jamming effects on the Hornet Radar. 

 

 

[QuiGon]

1 hour ago, Cmptohocah said:

• they can jam only other FC3 aircraft

That's just wrong. They can very well jam non FC3 aircraft like the Mirage 2000C, JF-17 or MiG-21bis.

 

The issue with the Viper, Hornet and Tomcat is just, that they don't have their jamming effects implemented yet and hence are immune against jamming. The Hornet will recieve those with the next upcomming update and can then be jammed by other aircraft (including FC3 aircraft of course).

 

I described this issue and how it is an unfair advantage for those 3 aircraft a while ago:

 

Edited January 11, 2021 by QuiGon

[Cmptohocah]

2 hours ago, Sol 1 Mihaly said:

Here come the NATO shills and bots. 

 

I remember when ED said the AIM 120C was accurate and told everyone to pound sand. 

 

Then the SD-10 was released and actually preformed better than the 120c. The entire bluefor club cried for weeks, causing a massive shitstorm and ED updated the 120c within months after they back tracked. 

 

Then they put russian missles on last things to update, if ever at all. 

 

Talk about cry babies? Go away. The bluefor bias is beyond cringe. 

 

DCS World has become NATO world simulator. 

 

Not all of us have a circle jerk around bluefor. 

 

 

I would just ignore @DD_Fenrir if I were you. He likes to throw a grenade and see what happens.

What this causes is that a lot of people get caught up in this vortex of useless insults and the main topic gets lost.

I agree, most of the red airplanes are neglected, but let's be fair: that's nothing new if you are flying red. We had that for years now. 
I actually see this as a problem for the blue side, since they are used now to fight against non-jamming targets - they will have to adjust once the jamming starts working for all airplanes.

55 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

That's just wrong. They can very well jam non FC3 aircraft like the Mirage 2000C, JF-17 or MiG-21bis.

True, but they are not considered "blue" planes in most of MP engagements, so I never mentioned them, but good point.

Edited January 11, 2021 by Cmptohocah

[Cmptohocah]

2 hours ago, DD_Fenrir said:

You always get burn through before realistic max weapons range and any advantage you may have thought you had by altitude masking can quickly be negated by healthy application of the left hand on the part of your erstwhile opponent. It's pretty damn useless to everyone.

 

I don't know about other NATO platforms, but ECM against F-15C forces it into STT from TWS so there is one huge difference. There is also a thing called masking where multiple airplanes are hidden behind ECM so you can't tell if you are engaging a lone wolf or a squadron. Also we don't know who and why decided when the burn through happens when it happens in DCS, but I guess some common value had to be used.
In RL jamming does so much more than just deny you from getting ranging info. Some of them interfere with the DL, some of them prevent you from guiding your SARH/ARH missile. I guess that was why Soviets developed the T and ET variants.

Edited January 11, 2021 by Cmptohocah

[Boogieman]

TBH I think we are seeing a tacit acknowledgement from ED that the EW system in DCS needs a complete overhaul. IIRC they were advertising for an EW SME/specialist a while ago. I suspect the Hornet ASPJ functionality is just the first step in a much larger process.

[BIGNEWY]

Hi,

 

if you want to report an issue please include a short track replay showing the problem.

 

We know ECM needs improvement, but also I know RU ECM is working as intended as we have been testing it against the hornet and the work being done there. 

 

thanks

[Sol 1 Mihaly]

4 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Hi,

 

if you want to report an issue please include a short track replay showing the problem.

 

We know ECM needs improvement, but also I know RU ECM is working as intended as we have been testing it against the hornet and the work being done there. 

 

thanks

I will get you one soon

 

But currently, through multiple tests, the 14, 16 and 18 are not effected by any russian ecms at all. 

[GGTharos]

There's no 'RU ECM'.  There's one ECM implementation across FC3 which in some cases makes it to the other modules.  The ECM effects on the hornet demonstrated in Wags' video are the same as the FC3 ECM.

 

[Sol 1 Mihaly]

3 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

There's no 'RU ECM'.  There's one ECM implementation across FC3 which in some cases makes it to the other modules.  The ECM effects on the hornet demonstrated in Wags' video are the same as the FC3 ECM.

 

Okay. So you think its okay that the russian planes get effected by the 16, 14 and 18 ECM while their ECM have 0 impact on them? 

 

Even if you shill the excuse that it isnt modeled completely yet, why not just remove the feature entirely until all aircraft are effected by it, instead of having..

 

The 18's ECM gives me significant advantages, but the flankers and fulcrum ECM has absolutely 0 effect. 

[GGTharos]

 

Just now, Sol 1 Mihaly said:

Even if you shill the excuse that it isnt modeled completely yet, why not just remove the feature entirely until all aircraft are effected by it, instead of having..

 

This isn't the only issue with these modules and it's not the first time (nor first type) of problem to be reported.  And why not remove it?  Because it's already there.  You don't remove features because a whiner doesn't like it that those aren't present in other aircraft.  Your solution is to what - go around calling people shills and whining about blue bias, in the end you're just a whiner.

 

Just now, Sol 1 Mihaly said:

The 18's ECM gives me significant advantages, but the flankers and fulcrum ECM has absolutely 0 effect. 

 

Yep, and it's been reported multiple times, along with inappropriately long radar detection ranges etc.   The F-18 is already getting ECM effects implemented as demonstrated in Wags' video, the F-16 can't be too far behind.  None of this is thanks to your whining, it was simply someone executing a priority list of things to do - you're welcome not to agree with the order in which things happen, but you've chosen the wrong hill to die on.

[FoxAlfa]

Regrading in ECM, the only change for now that is for sure needed, is removal of 15 sec STBY-XMT timer on all FC3 aircraft. For other stuff, we first need to see how it works on Hornet and Viper... and then see if any changes are needed to move to same level of modeling. 

Edited January 11, 2021 by FoxAlfa

[GGTharos]

12 minutes ago, FoxAlfa said:

Regrading in ECM, the only change for now that is for sure needed, is removal of 15 sec STBY-XMT timer on all FC3 aircraft.

 

That isn't needed at all.  It allows you to use the ECM strategically and prevents the exploit (and why did ED insert the timer?  because they agreed it creates an exploit) that the timer was implemented to tame.  What's needed is a general overhaul of electronic warfare across DCS World, and there you could remove this timer because it wouldn't create a 100% no-lock/no-shoot exploit.

Edited January 11, 2021 by GGTharos

[sirPecka]

Okay. So you think its okay that the russian planes get effected by the 16, 14 and 18 ECM while their ECM have 0 impact on them? 

Since when does the F-16 or F/A-18 have working jammer? I'm not aware of that being implemented yet, am I wrong or are you playing on a future build of game?

As for the F-14, you should ask Heatblur if jammers affect its radar. And if not, then when will they implement it.

Sent from my SpyPhone using Tapatalk

[FoxAlfa]

13 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

 

That isn't needed at all.  It allows you to use the ECM strategically and prevents the exploit (and why did ED insert the timer?  because they agreed it creates an exploit) that the timer was implemented to tame.  What's needed is a general overhaul of electronic warfare across DCS World, and there you could remove this timer because it wouldn't create a 100% no-lock/no-shoot exploit.

 

 

You must level the playing field between FF (which can do that like M2000C, F-14 and JF-17 instantly, and apparently the Hornet will do it automatically if JMR is on) and the FC3, but I will wait for the patch to see... and arguing it to leaving it just because of 'balance/exploits' than that is a whole different can of worms that doesn't need to open... 

 

According the video I don't believe Hornet ECM implementation brings a whole new overhaul... 

Edited January 11, 2021 by FoxAlfa

[GGTharos]

10 minutes ago, FoxAlfa said:

You must level the playing field between FF (which can do that like M2000C, F-14 and JF-17 instantly, and apparently the Hornet will do it automatically if JMR is on) and the FC3, but I will wait for the patch to see... and arguing it to leaving it just because of 'balance/exploits' than that is a whole different can of worms that doesn't need to open... 

 

The can of worms has been opened for a very long time.

 

10 minutes ago, FoxAlfa said:

According the video I don't believe Hornet ECM implementation brings a whole new overhaul... 

 

It doesn't, it's the same effect as far as I can tell.

[Coxy_99]

If FC3 keep 15 second warm up standby then so should all the other modules simple.

[Sol 1 Mihaly]

3 hours ago, Coxy_99 said:

If FC3 keep 15 second warm up standby then so should all the other modules simple.

Agreed. 

 

Can ED respond to this? 

 

Also. 

 

There is no point in argueing, there are two sides and this community has drawn its battlelines. You have people who side with ED and their entire world is bluefor and you have a community of redfor that feels disenfranchised and feels that ED gives absolute 0 fucks about redfor. 

 

We get it, the usual excuses. Big bad Putin, (which is debated as recent russian laws allow companies request information that if anything is classified, it just gets redacted) or that they are working on something else. 

 

There is a large community of eastern players that dont give a shit about NATO planes and want to see some attention to redfor aircraft. 

 

The JF-17 isnt even a redfor plane, its flown by Pakistan, a U.S. ally. Quality of life improvements and updates that western aircraft get would be a start. 

 

Like the fact the MIG29s radar isnt modeled right, missles have not been updated, ECM does not work on the majority of planes. 

 

This sim has just become nato vs nato, with some of the U.S. planes being flown by red only because they fell into adversary hands like Venuzula and Iran. 

 

The only reason why the majority of redfor pilots are here is because we dont have a choice. Until a competitor comes along and doesnt bring up bullshit excuses like russian law and treats redfor stuff like shit, we have to be here. 

 

ED, a company that has a rented closet in Russia, but holds an office in switzerland with development in the united states with military contracts with the U.S. air force but also has a business license in Russia says they cant even touch russian planes and update them? 

 

 

You have the eurofighter being developed, an early 2000s variant. One of the most modern fighters out there to this sim. The devs themselves said they are reverse engineering many features based on public info and self research. 

 

Basically the eurofighter is a  Frankenstein plane. You dont need every single piece of data to simulate an aircraft to be as accurate as possible yet ED refuses to even touch su's and migs. 

 

How much kool aid are people going to drink. 

Edited January 11, 2021 by Sol 1 Mihaly

[TaxDollarsAtWork]

50 minutes ago, Sol 1 Mihaly said:

The only reason why the majority of redfor pilots are here is because we dont have a choice. Until a competitor comes along and doesnt bring up bullshit excuses like russian law and treats redfor stuff like shit, we have to be here.

 

You hit the nail on the head, there is a reason ED chose to do the F-16 and F/A-18, and that is those are the main planes in a certain sim named after a bird of prey of the Falconidae family.

 

It was because of constant comparisons to this game through out the years that ED was forced to acknowledge their mismodeling of missile aerodynamics and poor guidance law.

 

Maybe what is needed is some good spirited capitalist competition (ED as a Russian company might not like that but) where a community of programmers takes a certain 1998 Novalogic flight sim named after an ancient greek simple machine. And give it a face lift bringing it into the 21st century offering high end red for aircraft simulation.

 

That would certainly stimulate ED to finish modeling their own lot of Russian planes maybe even add more.

 

On that note some have said here that ECM isn't useful to begin with in DCS, that might have been so a long time ago like in 2018 or 2017 when the missiles were flying air breaks with the range of a spud gun on a maneuvering bandit.

 

But now with missiles like the AIM-54s and AMRAAMs that loft and retain their energy a thousand times better in turns than before it would massively help if ECM functioned a little more like it should. It would let you get closer and start a fight higher very important factors in BVR.

Edited January 11, 2021 by TaxDollarsAtWork