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What do people thinking of having to align the Mavs?


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Presumably boresighting mavericks will come to the A-10C, AV-8B N/A and F/A-18C at some point. 


SPECULATION:
I don't see this coming, especially for A10 or FA18. Even if boresighting as we have it in viper would be the right procedure for those aircrafts, i don't see ED changing the allegedly simplified agm65 mechanics. These 2 aircrafts are/were ED's flagship modules (flagship=most pushed from a marketing point of view=most likely sold).
ED also stated that one of the biggest problems they have with the player base is customer retention for newcomers. If they raise the bar of difficulty (procedures/avionics), new players (especially those with no previous exp of military flight sim, those who approach this world armed with a console controller so to speak) would be even more overwhelmed than they are already and not enticed in going deeper in the sim.

That said, i REALLY HOPE to be proven wrong in the future (maybe MAC will address the retention problem) i like realistic mechanics and to answer the OP, yes I'm i favor of boresighting, it's a 30 seconds job on the way to target.

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  • 1 month later...

Looks to me something about the immersion on the simulation , the same principle of the threat on the refuelling , looks like needle picking to me , don't get me wrong it's lots of fun , but miss some of the other realities to it, I've advocated a more relax settings for refuelling so newbies can practice refuelling easily, on my opinion , could be the same for the mavs , an option to require alignment or sort of "alignment" assistant would b good , and if you want or require full immersion, the yeah full alignment, but might b other options there.  

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  • 2 weeks later...

You all realize that you don't have to bore sight mavs to use them... right ?

Using them unaligned and then taking control to manually refine is what they do irl too afaik. My stance is that all jets that do it irl should do it in DCS, asking for auto refueling or landing is more or less the same thing as asking for this, you have your tools and limitations, to study them in order to exploit them to their maximum capability or to find neat tricks is up to you.

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On 4/2/2021 at 2:02 AM, Spectre1-1 said:

Using them unaligned and then taking control to manually refine is what they do irl too afaik.

 

Which is also like 75% of the boresighting procedure anyways - once you've done that you only have to press a single button and you're done - just repeat for each maverick - super simple stuff. I really don't get the issue here.

 

Quote

My stance is that all jets that do it irl should do it in DCS

 

Agreed, at least where feasible.


Edited by Northstar98
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On 1/10/2021 at 12:04 AM, Desert Fox said:

Simulations try to resemble reality.

Games pick what is fun and ignore everything else.

 

It's DCS, not DCG.

 

 

Dislike that the F-16, in a simulation, needs a more realistic procedure than the other models.

Because all the other planes have a more simplified version, the F-16 should be dumbed down.

More realism is a punishment, in a simulation.

 

Uh, what? :')

 

I would suggest rather than berate the poster for this opinion, we look at a workaround.

 

How about like with auto start procedure for those who just don't want that nutcase level simism of 20 odd minutes trying to align mavs that often  wont align on the ground. we have an auto align for those that want realism but not the extra faff.

Id say that's a reasonable compromise.

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3 minutes ago, Stig said:

I would suggest rather than berate the poster for this opinion, we look at a workaround.

 

How about like with auto start procedure for those who just don't want that nutcase level simism of 20 odd minutes trying to align mavs that often  wont align on the ground. we have an auto align for those that want realism but not the extra faff.

Id say that's a reasonable compromise.

 

Workaround is: click that 5 additional buttons to the 150 you click during an average sortie. If you don't like buttons, why fly F-16? Don't get it.

If you don't like sims, just play WT or wait for MAC.

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11 minutes ago, Stig said:

I would suggest rather than berate the poster for this opinion, we look at a workaround.

 

How about like with auto start procedure for those who just don't want that nutcase level simism of 20 odd minutes trying to align mavs that often  wont align on the ground.

 

If it's taking you 20 minutes to do 5 seconds of slewing, hitting TMS up and then hitting BGST you're doing something very wrong.

 

It barely takes me 20 seconds per maverick - if that.

 

And you're supposed to do it from the air - on as far away a target as possible - to minimise parallax errors.

 

Quote

we have an auto align for those that want realism but not the extra faff.

 

That's an odd way of putting it.

 

More like for those who want realism in a yes but actually no sorta way.

 

Quote

Id say that's a reasonable compromise.

 

Why don't you just start from the air where it's pre-aligned?

 

Why not just use the Maverick in any other mode but PRE? 


Edited by Northstar98
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1 minute ago, Desert Fox said:

 

Workaround is: click that 5 additional buttons to the 150 you click during an average sortie. If you don't like buttons, why fly F-16? Don't get it.

If you don't like sims, just play WT or wait for MAC.

Because not everyone wants that level of faff on the ground, I align them in the air where possible but doesn't work all the time.

Look, this shouldn't descend into simism snobbery, you are not "correct" for wanting ultra level clicks to align as hornet and warthog haven't had this, you fly those too? you moan about that lack of realism until now?

Do you exasperate over auto start functionality in the jets also?

 

The regular fly and fight systems are more than realistic for a large number of users, this workaround is to allow retention of newcomers who leave because its very very overwhelming, how about some functions like this an auto align, like an AutoStart to east them in, you can then choose to do it manually as you progress? to paraphrase your earlier comment huh?

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3 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

 

If it's taking you 20 minutes to do 5 seconds of slewing, hitting TMS up and then hitting BGST you're doing something very wrong.

 

It barely takes me 20 seconds per maverick - if that.

 

And you're supposed to do it from the air - on as far away a target as possible - to minimise parallax errors.

 

 

That's an odd way of putting it.

 

More like for those who want realism in a yes but actually no sorta way.

 

 

Why don't you just start from the air where it's pre-aligned?

 

Why not just use the Maverick in any other mode but PRE? 

 

Because not everyone is as "expert" as you guys obviously.......

all well and good belittling people with far less experience than yourselves, I personally have struggled to make the alignment process work, unfamiliarity with the systems, processes, TMS ups downs arounds etc.

Take a step back guys, think about those of us that aren't experts that can take the piss out of newcomers who aren't as proficient and may need that little workaround until everything else gets up to speed too. geez guys, you don't wanna use it, you don't have to, some of us struggle like hell and rather than come away frustrated as fook and decide to give up on that module, or that weapon etc, a workaround whilst being able to manually practise isn't such a drama is it??????

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On 4/6/2021 at 10:05 PM, Stig said:

Because not everyone is as "expert" as you guys obviously.......

all well and good belittling people with far less experience than yourselves, I personally have struggled to make the alignment process work, unfamiliarity with the systems, processes, TMS ups downs arounds etc.

 

If you don't know how to do it that's fine! Once upon a time I didn't know how to use it either! I help out many newcomers who want to understand something - it isn't an issue, I was in their position - I just learnt it.

 

Quote

Take a step back guys, think about those of us that aren't experts that can take the piss out of newcomers who aren't as proficient and may need that little workaround until everything else gets up to speed too.

 

Yeah, you continue making a scapegoat - nobody is pissing on anyone who doesn't know how to do x, it is clearly not the issue here and your own post makes that clear.

 

All it takes is "hey guys, how do I boresight mavericks?" and people (including me) will happily walk you through it, or direct you to the page in the manual, or a YouTube video or whatever - it's really no issue.

 

Quote

geez guys, you don't wanna use it, you don't have to, some of us struggle like hell and rather than come away frustrated as fook and decide to give up on that module

 

Then ask! It's really simple and many of us are willing to help! You think I don't struggle? I don't even have a throttle! Or rudders and I'm playing on a 15.6" laptop. Stop trying accuse people of elitism - it's a nonsense cop out that holds the square root of bugger all water, plain and simple. See here.

 

And really, here's how you boresight the maverick - slew the pod and command whatever track (TMS up for point, TMS right for area)), switch SOI over to the maverick (DMS down until WPN page has a white square around it), slew it over the same place and TMS up until it locks, then hit BGST on the MFD displaying the maverick - that's it!

 

Hell, if you know how to slew the targeting pod and command a track (which you have to do anyway) - then you can slew the maverick and command a track, the only thing you have to do beyond that is hitting a single button - that's it.

 

And if you noticed the maverick was off, wouldn't the first thing you'd try is slewing the maverick manually to correct it? Because if you do that, you've done the easy majority of the procedure - you only have to hit a single button and you're done. 

 

And let's address "Look, this shouldn't descend into simism snobbery, you are not "correct" for wanting ultra level clicks to align as hornet and warthog haven't had this, you fly those too? you moan about that lack of realism until now?"

 

Ha ha what? Remind me what the entire point of DCS is again? That's literally the 3rd line into the product description? How is making something more realistic not correct? In something advertised as being as trying to be as realistic as feasibly possible? No - those aircraft should have the same limitations, and the F/A-18C is actually getting the same HARM limitations as the F-16C!

 

And as for "simism snobbery" (please), here's a part of the product description for DCS:

 

Quote

Our dream is to offer the most authentic and realistic simulation of military aircraft, tanks, ground vehicles and ships possible.

 

And here's what's explicitly stated on the planned features list for the F-16CM: 

 

Quote

We will be taking great care though to develop a very accurate simulation of the F-16C Block 50 operated by the United States Air Force and Air National Guard circa 2007.

 

For this project, we are striving to create a very authentic simulation of this particular aircraft at a specific point in time. We have no desire to create a Frankenstein's Monster that combines multiple F-16C versions from different time periods.

 

So we take that, but it actually being so is apparently simism snobbery? What?

 

If you want help with something, that's absolutely fine - plenty of us (including me) are more than happy to help and all of us have been in the exact same situation of not knowing what to do or being able to do something. It's no issue, plenty of us are more than happy to help out.


Edited by Northstar98
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39 minutes ago, Stig said:

Because not everyone wants that level of faff on the ground, I align them in the air where possible but doesn't work all the time.

 

In the air is where you boresight, just saw Northstar98 explained it already. Works perfectly with some practice.

 

37 minutes ago, Stig said:

warthog haven't had this, you fly those too? you moan about that lack of realism until now?

 

I actually opened a wishlist thread to have boresighting implemented in the A-10C. Feel free to support! Lots of other things i'd love to have implemented to the Hog.

 

(i don't moan, that's for others. I always ask for more realism tho if i'm aware of something missing or being incorrect)

 

41 minutes ago, Stig said:

Do you exasperate over auto start functionality in the jets also?

 

Would not mind if it was gone, would motivate people to learn the actual jet first and not only the boom boom and then realize it's all so complicated (and then complain on the forums and ask for "easy/optional/automatic XY" right after). Would save us a lot of iterations of the ever same silly discussion over a dozen pages. (spoiler: ED has stated dozens of times they don't plan any auto functions, optional or easy modes. In fact they look into removing the "game mode" avionics, which points in the direction of more study and less game. The "game" part will move to MAC later this year if all goes well).

 

1 hour ago, Stig said:

I personally have struggled to make the alignment process work, unfamiliarity with the systems, processes, TMS ups downs arounds etc.

 

If you learn the jet before the weapons, you're well aware of the concepts of sensors and things like TMS, DMS, CMS etc aren't unfamiliar. If boresighting is "too complicated" because you don't know the jet, that's a direct result of wrong learning priorities. "Optional boresight" to "make the learning easier" is just to compensate for biting off too much from the wrong cake. Take a few steps back here and concentrate on the basics first (see below), then work up.

 

42 minutes ago, Stig said:

this workaround is to allow retention of newcomers who leave because its very very overwhelming

 

Nice strawman here, the "oh the poor newcomers" story, which "leave because boresighting". Hands down, it's for your comfort.

People don't leave because boresighting, they leave because of their impatience. No DCS issue.

 

Like said above: if you learn the jet in the correct order before jumping right to the weapons, there is nothing overly complicated which would overwhelm.

 

Get familiar with the cockpit, location and purpose of all the instruments, where all the systems are, what roughly they are used for, go through the startup sequence a few times to recognize the process (no need to know it all from memory, real pilots use checklists too for a reason. Just know where things are so you don't need to search for half an hour), practice taxi, check all the flight controls bindings, practice takeoffs, practice landings, practice controlled flight (clean level turns, hold altitude, speed and heading, hold a certain climb rate... get a feel for the plane), learn radios and navigation (best during free flight in combination with controlled flight training)... some more steps later weapon employment comes and by that point, you're well familiar with everything you need. That's how i do it in every new module and i have great success. One step at a time, from easy to complicated.

 

38 minutes ago, Stig said:

Because not everyone is as "expert" as you guys obviously.......

all well and good belittling people with far less experience than yourselves,

 

None of us was, none of us necessarily is. And regarding me you won't find a post from me complaining how complicated everything is. Instead you'll find posts asking how things work, why things work, if my procedures are correct... it's a difference in mindset, not in experience. I'm a newbie actually in every new module i buy and i got little experience in there (yep, there's things which are the same in every plane), yet i succeed without moaning or complaining or easy modes.

 

You don't learn or master a study sim in a week or a month. I learn and learn and embrace there is still more stuff to learn. I'm always in for more. Things are complex too for me and sometimes i don't understand things, but i ask instead of complain. People in here are actually super helpful, they are just also super annoyed by complainers and moaners. Hence i tend to be, like others, rough in these threads, no offense. Maybe try another mindset and ask how to get around all those complicated things instead of complaining about them or ask for a shortcut.

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12 hours ago, Desert Fox said:

 

In the air is where you boresight, just saw Northstar98 explained it already. Works perfectly with some practice.

 

 

I actually opened a wishlist thread to have boresighting implemented in the A-10C. Feel free to support! Lots of other things i'd love to have implemented to the Hog.

 

(i don't moan, that's for others. I always ask for more realism tho if i'm aware of something missing or being incorrect)

 

 

Would not mind if it was gone, would motivate people to learn the actual jet first and not only the boom boom and then realize it's all so complicated (and then complain on the forums and ask for "easy/optional/automatic XY" right after). Would save us a lot of iterations of the ever same silly discussion over a dozen pages. (spoiler: ED has stated dozens of times they don't plan any auto functions, optional or easy modes. In fact they look into removing the "game mode" avionics, which points in the direction of more study and less game. The "game" part will move to MAC later this year if all goes well).

 

 

If you learn the jet before the weapons, you're well aware of the concepts of sensors and things like TMS, DMS, CMS etc aren't unfamiliar. If boresighting is "too complicated" because you don't know the jet, that's a direct result of wrong learning priorities. "Optional boresight" to "make the learning easier" is just to compensate for biting off too much from the wrong cake. Take a few steps back here and concentrate on the basics first (see below), then work up.

 

 

Nice strawman here, the "oh the poor newcomers" story, which "leave because boresighting". Hands down, it's for your comfort.

People don't leave because boresighting, they leave because of their impatience. No DCS issue.

 

Like said above: if you learn the jet in the correct order before jumping right to the weapons, there is nothing overly complicated which would overwhelm.

 

Get familiar with the cockpit, location and purpose of all the instruments, where all the systems are, what roughly they are used for, go through the startup sequence a few times to recognize the process (no need to know it all from memory, real pilots use checklists too for a reason. Just know where things are so you don't need to search for half an hour), practice taxi, check all the flight controls bindings, practice takeoffs, practice landings, practice controlled flight (clean level turns, hold altitude, speed and heading, hold a certain climb rate... get a feel for the plane), learn radios and navigation (best during free flight in combination with controlled flight training)... some more steps later weapon employment comes and by that point, you're well familiar with everything you need. That's how i do it in every new module and i have great success. One step at a time, from easy to complicated.

 

 

None of us was, none of us necessarily is. And regarding me you won't find a post from me complaining how complicated everything is. Instead you'll find posts asking how things work, why things work, if my procedures are correct... it's a difference in mindset, not in experience. I'm a newbie actually in every new module i buy and i got little experience in there (yep, there's things which are the same in every plane), yet i succeed without moaning or complaining or easy modes.

 

You don't learn or master a study sim in a week or a month. I learn and learn and embrace there is still more stuff to learn. I'm always in for more. Things are complex too for me and sometimes i don't understand things, but i ask instead of complain. People in here are actually super helpful, they are just also super annoyed by complainers and moaners. Hence i tend to be, like others, rough in these threads, no offense. Maybe try another mindset and ask how to get around all those complicated things instead of complaining about them or ask for a shortcut.

So you're rough but mean no offence? right! 🙂

 

Lets get one thing straight here, it's not up to you to decide if you like people struggling and therefore moaning, requesting, this isn't your sim and neither is it your forum to determine what you think others should feel/moan about when something is frustratingly complex and/or isn't working how it should.

 

Where exactly do you get off suggesting how I learn, in which order I learn huh.  I'm pretty familiar with the F 16 and the F18 thanks very condescendingly much, but the process of point track, handover etc for mavs on the F 16 AND remembering every which way for the TMS and SMS to go IS complicated, its unlike the F 18 i started on in that respect and takes a lot of practise.

I've tried many other weapon systems on the viper and am now trying the mavs and am not at the point you so arrogantly try and suggest. These functions requires massive muscle memory that not all have the luxury of obtaining, especially when the videos put out suggest aligning isn't necessary unless cold starting, not true, as I've discovered to my annoyance. yes if find aligning in air difficult, trying to get the TGP to point at the specified waypoint to allow for easy target lock to begin the process doesn't work for me, hence I come on here and watch how to videos. Sometimes following those still doesn't work though, that snot a case of not learning the jet TVM, its a case of trying a process that you haven't used before and following a guide that still will not produce the results. for whatever reason.

 

The last thing any new starter, (or new module user) needs is high and mighty experts lording it up about how proficient they are and how much more simmy they would prefer things and anyone else should shut up and not moan as all you experts don't like it, so you're rough on them, that isn't right , what determines you have the right to decide what is deemed as annoying or simple and therefore ok to tolerate. its called a forum for a reason, not experts only, or this opinion only.

 

Forums of every denomination always have and forever will have people who belittle others who don't know as much, don't have the experience, the knowledge, the hours in, and therefore that gives them a right to say what others can say in forums and leaves others just as righteously asking (dumb) questions in fear of being publicly mocked for asking.

 

I watch the how to videos and read the forums and go try it out, sometimes frustratingly it doesn't work and am allowed and will continue to voice that opinion. If auto start is  a thing and came to exist for whatever necessity then auto align could also be, so you don't like that, ok, fine bit don't go around mocking those who think it is a good idea, at least for those wishing to learn some other functions that give a little bang for buck before the really irritatingly small study level sim detail.

 

This sim is supposed to be FUN ASWELL YOU KNOW, not just about every single minute level detail, each to their own, you can have realism without your so called "game mode" 

Sometimes these thing scan be a valuable aid to learning, not everyone may learn the way you do. or appreciate every last single dial and witch combo for that ultra realism combo. What, you think DCS is that realistic,  I'm pretty sure there are many aspects of the aircraft we are having simplified versions of to make it useable without us needing fighter pilot training....

 

So, thanks for your input, I don't need to learn any aircraft the way you think I should, and your version of what you think others should do is not the "be all and end all" to give you and others like you the ability to say what gives or be rough on anyone, OK.

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15 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

 

If you don't know how to do it that's fine! Once upon a time I didn't know how to use it either! I help out many newcomers who want to understand something - it isn't an issue, I was in their position - I just learnt it.

 

 

Yeah, you continue making a scapegoat - nobody is pissing on anyone who doesn't know how to do x, it is clearly not the issue here and your own post makes that clear.

 

All it takes is "hey guys, how do I boresight mavericks?" and people (including me) will happily walk you through it, or direct you to the page in the manual, or a YouTube video or whatever - it's really no issue.

 

 

Then ask! It's really simple and many of us are willing to help! You think I don't struggle? I don't even have a throttle! Or rudders and I'm playing on a 15.6" laptop. Stop trying accuse people of elitism - it's a nonsense cop out that holds the square root of bugger all water, plain and simple. See here.

 

And really, here's how you boresight the maverick - slew the pod and command whatever track (TMS up for point, TMS right for area)), switch SOI over to the maverick (DMS down until WPN page has a white square around it), slew it over the same place and TMS up, then hit BGST on the MFD displaying the maverick - that's it!

 

Hell, if you know how to slew the targeting pod and command a track (which you have to do anyway) - then you can slew the maverick and command a track, the only thing you have to do beyond that is hitting a single button - that's it.

 

And if you noticed the maverick was off, wouldn't the first thing you'd try is slewing the maverick manually to correct it? Because if you do that, you've done the easy majority of the procedure - you only have to hit a single button and you're done. 

 

And let's address "Look, this shouldn't descend into simism snobbery, you are not "correct" for wanting ultra level clicks to align as hornet and warthog haven't had this, you fly those too? you moan about that lack of realism until now?"

 

Ha ha what? Remind me what the entire point of DCS is again? That's literally the 3rd line into the product description? How is making something more realistic not correct? In something advertised as being as trying to be as realistic as feasibly possible? No - those aircraft should have the same limitations, and the F/A-18C is actually getting the same HARM limitations as the F-16C!

 

And as for "simism snobbery" (please), here's a part of the product description for DCS:

 

 

And here's what's explicitly stated on the planned features list for the F-16CM: 

 

 

So we take that, but it actually being so is apparently simism snobbery? What?

 

If you want help with something, that's absolutely fine - plenty of us (including me) are more than happy to help and all of us have been in the exact same situation of not knowing what to do or being able to do something. It's no issue, plenty of us are more than happy to help out.

 

Your initial response to my post was

 

If it's taking you 20 minutes to do 5 seconds of slewing, hitting TMS up and then hitting BGST you're doing something very wrong.

 

It barely takes me 20 seconds per maverick - if that.

 

And you're supposed to do it from the air - on as far away a target as possible - to minimise parallax errors.

 

Now read your post above about offering help to those who are struggling with whatever process and not having a snobby elitist attitude. That's not an offer of help that you now claim is what you're all about.? So many assumptions made when reading posts by people just like me, but me in this instance, who are trying, watching all the videos, reading the manuals and still not getting the results. Only to have someone say it takes me 5 seconds, well great, thanks for that, really doesn't help though mate does it! Im no shy retiring wall flower with a constitution made of tissue paper but FFS, its not acceptable to be so carefree about put downs.

 

I've been on threads asking for help and received some tips directly and where else to look, I've tried the processes but they don't work for me. maybe I'm missing one tiny aspect but its ok to comment this from your first response.....

 

If it's taking you 20 minutes to do 5 seconds of slewing, hitting TMS up and then hitting BGST you're doing something very wrong.

 

It barely takes me 20 seconds per maverick - if that.

 

And you're supposed to do it from the air - on as far away a target as possible - to minimise parallax errors.

 

When I try and use the TGP to help boresight, regardless of choosing a steerpoint for the TGP to use as its point of interest to track, its miles away instead and cycling through waypoints to try and get the TGP looking at the steerpoint I'm flying towards to start the process is what's taking ages. When I manage to slew the TGP to a base etc with targets to use to align, slewing the mav manually as you caringly suggested is all that is necessary, works fine but commanding the boresight on the mav page results in no lock, open tracking gates. frustrating eh. Again. maybe I am asking silly questions as desertfox suggested but really his and your attitudes make it increasingly difficult to ask questions when short tempered answers like this are what result.

 

So instead I ask if a workaround is reasonable, oh no, that's for gamers and clearly I'm one of them and should go play MAC or ace combat 7 or something. What you don't seem to realise is that sometimes without thinking, you are being snobby and elitist and the time for people who are struggling leads to a "you're doing something very wrong" hardly a comment likely to promote further questions from the poster......

 

I appreciate you saying you wish to help, ok, now you've made the offer rather than be condescending, what could I be doing wrong that means I fire up my TGP to start locking a target on point track only to find my TGP is pointing anywhere but the steerpoint I've selected and am flying towards, and why when try and TMS forward to get the Nav to lock to the TGP target, does it fail to lock? I'm within max range, seeker pointing at target tgp locked to in point track.....

 

I've been trying for well over a week and haven't been able to successfully get what I've been told repeatedly should work, so yeah 20 minutes is along time and asking for a workaround to allow me to actually use IR mavs is what I came up with to help as i would like to enjoy this sim at some point and didn't need you and desert fox judging.........

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32 minutes ago, Stig said:

So you're rough but mean no offence? right! 🙂

 

Lets get one thing straight here, it's not up to you to decide if you like people struggling and therefore moaning, requesting, this isn't your sim and neither is it your forum to determine what you think others should feel/moan about when something is frustratingly complex and/or isn't working how it should.

 

Where exactly do you get off suggesting how I learn, in which order I learn huh.  I'm pretty familiar with the F 16 and the F18 thanks very condescendingly much, but the process of point track, handover etc for mavs on the F 16 AND remembering every which way for the TMS and SMS to go IS complicated, its unlike the F 18 i started on in that respect and takes a lot of practise.

I've tried many other weapon systems on the viper and am now trying the mavs and am not at the point you so arrogantly try and suggest. These functions requires massive muscle memory that not all have the luxury of obtaining, especially when the videos put out suggest aligning isn't necessary unless cold starting, not true, as I've discovered to my annoyance. yes if find aligning in air difficult, trying to get the TGP to point at the specified waypoint to allow for easy target lock to begin the process doesn't work for me, hence I come on here and watch how to videos. Sometimes following those still doesn't work though, that snot a case of not learning the jet TVM, its a case of trying a process that you haven't used before and following a guide that still will not produce the results. for whatever reason.

 

The last thing any new starter, (or new module user) needs is high and mighty experts lording it up about how proficient they are and how much more simmy they would prefer things and anyone else should shut up and not moan as all you experts don't like it, so you're rough on them, that isn't right , what determines you have the right to decide what is deemed as annoying or simple and therefore ok to tolerate. its called a forum for a reason, not experts only, or this opinion only.

 

Forums of every denomination always have and forever will have people who belittle others who don't know as much, don't have the experience, the knowledge, the hours in, and therefore that gives them a right to say what others can say in forums and leaves others just as righteously asking (dumb) questions in fear of being publicly mocked for asking.

 

I watch the how to videos and read the forums and go try it out, sometimes frustratingly it doesn't work and am allowed and will continue to voice that opinion. If auto start is  a thing and came to exist for whatever necessity then auto align could also be, so you don't like that, ok, fine bit don't go around mocking those who think it is a good idea, at least for those wishing to learn some other functions that give a little bang for buck before the really irritatingly small study level sim detail.

 

This sim is supposed to be FUN ASWELL YOU KNOW, not just about every single minute level detail, each to their own, you can have realism without your so called "game mode" 

Sometimes these thing scan be a valuable aid to learning, not everyone may learn the way you do. or appreciate every last single dial and witch combo for that ultra realism combo. What, you think DCS is that realistic,  I'm pretty sure there are many aspects of the aircraft we are having simplified versions of to make it useable without us needing fighter pilot training....

 

So, thanks for your input, I don't need to learn any aircraft the way you think I should, and your version of what you think others should do is not the "be all and end all" to give you and others like you the ability to say what gives or be rough on anyone, OK.

 

Read that just in parts, way too much salt there. I gave my opinion, like it or not. I gave some decent tips to make learning easier so you guys don't fail, take advantage of that or not. But don't expect people to take all that crying and moaning without response while you guys don't want or take any help 🤷‍♂️

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2 hours ago, Stig said:

Your initial response to my post was

Quote

 

If it's taking you 20 minutes to do 5 seconds of slewing, hitting TMS up and then hitting BGST you're doing something very wrong.

 

It barely takes me 20 seconds per maverick - if that.

 

And you're supposed to do it from the air - on as far away a target as possible - to minimise parallax errors.

 

 

Now read your post above about offering help to those who are struggling with whatever process and not having a snobby elitist attitude.

 

If it's taking you 20 minutes to do that, then you ARE doing something wrong, there's nothing malicious about it. You're ascribing malice when there isn't any. If it's taking you such a large amount of time something is going wrong - I'm not trying to make out you're stupid or incompetent, but something is going wrong. But instead of going "okay, how do I get better at it?", you accuse me of being a snob.

 

So what are you doing? Let's get to the bottom of this (you do so later in your post so we'll do it here).

 

Quote

So many assumptions made when reading posts by people just like me, but me in this instance, who are trying, watching all the videos, reading the manuals and still not getting the results.

 

Only you didn't say something like "look it isn't working for me, how can I make this work for me?" You accused people of being able to do it as elitist snobs - that's why my responses have been as they are.

 

However, you've now made clear that there is a real problem going on, and that you are having issues with completing the procedure and I'm going to try and help you and hopefully I'll see what is going wrong.

 

Quote

Only to have someone say it takes me 5 seconds, well great, thanks for that, really doesn't help though mate does it! Im no shy retiring wall flower with a constitution made of tissue paper but FFS, its not acceptable to be so carefree about put downs.

 

I responded like that, because your post made it sound like you do know what to do, but you find it an inconvenience - you described it as faff.

 

Now you've made it clear that there is a real issue going on with completing the procedure, let me see if I can help.

 

Quote

When I try and use the TGP to help boresight, regardless of choosing a steerpoint for the TGP to use as its point of interest to track, its miles away instead and cycling through waypoints to try and get the TGP looking at the steerpoint I'm flying towards to start the process is what's taking ages. When I manage to slew the TGP to a base etc with targets to use to align, slewing the mav manually as you caringly suggested is all that is necessary, works fine but commanding the boresight on the mav page results in no lock, open tracking gates. frustrating eh.

 

See, that wasn't so hard was it?

 

So here's the first problem - the steerpoints. How has this mission been set up? Are you in multiplayer or single player, and are you using the steerpoints to actually fly your route sequentially? You shouldn't have to keep cycling through the steerpoints to find the correct one - this sounds to me like something is going wrong with the mission planning.

 

Next issue is getting the maverick to actually track a target, AFAIK the maximum range of the maverick to lock most contacts is around 7nmi. And to increase your chances you should ideally pick an object that has high contrast and is isolated - it makes it a lot more clear for the maverick and on the WPN page.

 

So my next questions are what are you actually using as your boresight target? Are there other objects in close proximity? How big is it? What field of view setting are you using?

 

Quote

Again. maybe I am asking silly questions as desertfox suggested but really his and your attitudes make it increasingly difficult to ask questions when short tempered answers like this are what result.

 

I've made it pretty clear why I said what I did - your post did not make out that actually doing the procedure is difficult - rather it's an inconvenience. You've now made it clear that it isn't the case and there is genuinely something going wrong. 

 

Quote

So instead I ask if a workaround is reasonable, oh no, that's for gamers and clearly I'm one of them and should go play MAC or ace combat 7 or something. What you don't seem to realise is that sometimes without thinking, you are being snobby and elitist and the time for people who are struggling leads to a "you're doing something very wrong" hardly a comment likely to promote further questions from the poster...

 

I don't how accurately describing the situation is condescending, snobby or elitist - believe it or not I'm wrong about many things and when I get called out on that I see it as an opportunity to learn something. It's perfectly okay to make mistakes - the solution is to try and correct them if possible.

 

If I get a question wrong on an exam and when I explain my thinking to a teacher or tutor or whatever and it turns out that I my whole process was very, very wrong - I would expect the teacher or whatever to tell me "you're thinking is very wrong" which should then pose the question by me "how should I actually try and rectify the problem", instead of that question being taken out of the exam, and me calling people who can answer correctly snobby elitists.

 

Quote

what could I be doing wrong that means I fire up my TGP to start locking a target on point track only to find my TGP is pointing anywhere but the steerpoint I've selected and am flying towards, and why when try and TMS forward to get the Nav to lock to the TGP target, does it fail to lock? I'm within max range, seeker pointing at target tgp locked to in point track...

 

  1. Firstly is your steerpoint shown on the HSD page with a white cross on it? If yes then that waypoint is in fact the SPI or sensor point of interest.
  2. How are you slewing the TGP to the steerpoint? How I do it is by pressing the CZ or 'Cursor Zero' which should slew the TGP over the currently selected steerpoint.
  3. What are you targeting with the TGP/Maverick to complete the boresight procedure? Cluttered objects or objects with low contrast might be causing the locking issues.
  4. Are you using an IR (AGM-65D/G) or TV (AGM-65H/K) maverick?
  5. By max range, do you mean as according to the DLZ presented on the HUD? If so you might be in range for the missile, but not for the missile's seeker to establish a lock - which AFAIK is around 7nmi.

 

If you have a track I'll happily take a look to see what's up. 

 

Quote

I've been trying for well over a week and haven't been able to successfully get what I've been told repeatedly should work, so yeah 20 minutes is along time and asking for a workaround to allow me to actually use IR mavs

 

Okay so you're using the IR mavericks - that's odd as they should be able to pick out targets a little easier - perhaps it's what you're targeting that's the issue?

 

Also the BSGT procedure only applies to TGP handoff AFAIK, in the other maverick modes it isn't required - you simply use the maverick purely manually. But if your mavericks aren't locking it won't matter if you have a boresighted maverick or what mode you're using - so I wonder what's causing the maverick to fail to lock.


Edited by Northstar98

Modules I own: F-14A/B, Mi-24P, AJS 37, F-5E-3, MiG-21bis, F-16CM, F/A-18C, Supercarrier, Mi-8MTV-2, UH-1H, Mirage 2000C, FC3, MiG-15bis, Ka-50, A-10C (+ A-10C II), P-47D, P-51D, C-101, Yak-52, CA, NS430, Hawk

Terrains I own: Syria, The Channel, SoH/PG, Marianas

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37 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

Also the BSGT procedure only applies to TGP handoff AFAIK, in the other maverick modes it isn't required - you simply use the maverick purely manually. 

 

Am I correct in thinking that the TGP handoff only works with IR Mavericks, the D and G?

 

Therefore there is only a requirement to do the alignment process on these? as the H and K Mavericks are TV guided and TGP handoff will not work with these so therefore alignment is not required?

 

Am I right or is my thinking way off here too! lol...


Edited by bart

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18 minutes ago, bart said:

 

Am I correct in thinking that the TGP handoff only works with IR Mavericks, the D and G?

 

Therefore there is only a requirement to do the alignment process on these? as the H and K Mavericks are TV guided and TGP handoff will not work with these so therefore alignment is not required?

 

Am I right or is my thinking way off here too! lol...

 

Y'know what, I actually don't know! I'll do a quick test and edit this post.

 

EDIT: I just managed to perform a handoff with an AGM-65H - it was a bit of a prick to lock (only establishing one at 5nmi against a fuel tank) but the BSGT option was there and it did hand off.

 

I turned around and did an auto handoff - the main issue is getting the maverick to lock the target.


Edited by Northstar98
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Modules I own: F-14A/B, Mi-24P, AJS 37, F-5E-3, MiG-21bis, F-16CM, F/A-18C, Supercarrier, Mi-8MTV-2, UH-1H, Mirage 2000C, FC3, MiG-15bis, Ka-50, A-10C (+ A-10C II), P-47D, P-51D, C-101, Yak-52, CA, NS430, Hawk

Terrains I own: Syria, The Channel, SoH/PG, Marianas

System (RIP my old PC): Dell XPS 15 9570 w/ Intel i7-8750H, NVIDIA GTX 1050Ti Max-Q, 16GB DDR4, 500GB Samsung PM871 SSD (upgraded with 1TB Samsung 970 EVO Plus SSD)

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20 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

 

Y'know what, I actually don't know! I'll do a quick test and edit this post.

 

EDIT: I just managed to perform a handoff with an AGM-65H - it was a bit of a prick to lock (only establishing one at 5nmi against a fuel tank) but the BSGT option was there and it did hand off.

 

I turned around and did an auto handoff - the main issue is getting the maverick to lock the target.

 

 

Interesting, I'll have a go later. Thanks for that.

 

Following the alignment did you use the TGP to track the fuel tank, then auto-handoff on the H to get it to point at the target and then use Area mode to get it to lock the tank?

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4 minutes ago, bart said:

 

Interesting, I'll have a go later. Thanks for that.

 

Following the alignment did you use the TGP to track the fuel tank, then auto-handoff on the H to get it to point at the target and then use Area mode to get it to lock the tank?

 

I used point and it did take a couple of attempts but it did work on my second run in. It was an auto-handoff - not touching the maverick at all once I did the boresight.

Modules I own: F-14A/B, Mi-24P, AJS 37, F-5E-3, MiG-21bis, F-16CM, F/A-18C, Supercarrier, Mi-8MTV-2, UH-1H, Mirage 2000C, FC3, MiG-15bis, Ka-50, A-10C (+ A-10C II), P-47D, P-51D, C-101, Yak-52, CA, NS430, Hawk

Terrains I own: Syria, The Channel, SoH/PG, Marianas

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I am not against the feature per se, but I strongly dislike the fact, that the F16 is the only jet where it is needed. My understanding is that in reality this is required for every jet because there always is some degree of misalignment. Either implement it for every jet or for none. Currently it feels like punishment for F16 owners.
 
And since were are already on he topic of inconveniences: GBU laser codes
The inability of changing them in the air is a major disadvantage and actually takes away some of the fun in multiplayer servers that run any kind  of JTAC scripts/units. In reality the JTAC could change to our laser code, but that is impossible in DCS, so we have to set the JTAC's code - except the F16, we are left out of the fun.
Apparently in reality the codes can only be set by switches on the ground, nonetheless any other jet can change them in the air, although unrealistic. Again, why is the F16 the only one with that limitation? Again feels like getting punished for choosing the F16.
It's the same with the F-14 and AV8B. It also should be disabled for the 18 and A-10. No aircraft IRL (without the wireless smart pylon kit) has the ability to change the laser code of GBU-12s.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

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4 hours ago, Hulkbust44 said:

It's the same with the F-14 and AV8B. It also should be disabled for the 18 and A-10. No aircraft IRL (without the wireless smart pylon kit) has the ability to change the laser code of GBU-12s.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
 

 

AFAIK no GBU-12 has the ability to change the laser code while in flight, the only place it can be adjusted is by external screw terminals near the nose of the bomb. So unless you want to go outside and dial in a new code with a screwdriver, there isn't any way to reset the code in flight. 

 

The EGBU-12 however might be different, but that came on a later M-tape compared to our version.

 

1 hour ago, fragal said:

Practice Makes perfect

 

 

Nice find!


Edited by Northstar98
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Modules I own: F-14A/B, Mi-24P, AJS 37, F-5E-3, MiG-21bis, F-16CM, F/A-18C, Supercarrier, Mi-8MTV-2, UH-1H, Mirage 2000C, FC3, MiG-15bis, Ka-50, A-10C (+ A-10C II), P-47D, P-51D, C-101, Yak-52, CA, NS430, Hawk

Terrains I own: Syria, The Channel, SoH/PG, Marianas

System (RIP my old PC): Dell XPS 15 9570 w/ Intel i7-8750H, NVIDIA GTX 1050Ti Max-Q, 16GB DDR4, 500GB Samsung PM871 SSD (upgraded with 1TB Samsung 970 EVO Plus SSD)

VKB Gunfighter Mk.II w. MCG Pro, MFG Crosswind V3 Graphite

Dreams: https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/list/bG9bBc

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