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What do people thinking of having to align the Mavs?


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18 minutes ago, falconbr said:

That means that LAU-88A/A LEU retains the missile boresight setting. Once the first missile is boresighted, the launcher provides the same boresight correction to all missiles on the LAU-88A/A.

Partially explains why boresighting, firing, then rearming Mavericks doesn't require reboresighting.  Maybe.

 

Can you explain the triple rack issue? They were never allowed IRL because of damage from the Mav plumes, but a single Mav is allowed on the same station?  Why doesn't that plume cause damage?

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LMAO, really, dude? I agree the boresighting process should be simulated, but don't pretend you are OK with it because you're "cut to be a fighter pilot" 😆 All Maverick-carrying modules should ha

As a side note: i love the framing certain folks are pushing here again. It's like boresighting is completely killing their gaming experience by making the Maverick unusable and thereby DCS close to i

Rearm, start up, power up MAVs during INS, take off, boresight, resume mission. It's 1-2 minutes right after take-off and there is nothing difficult about it. Is this already too much to ask players t

2 hours ago, Machalot said:

Partially explains why boresighting, firing, then rearming Mavericks doesn't require reboresighting.  Maybe.

 

Can you explain the triple rack issue? They were never allowed IRL because of damage from the Mav plumes, but a single Mav is allowed on the same station?  Why doesn't that plume cause damage?


Regarding the tripple rack, from my understanding they allow(ed) the use of the TER with the two outboard rails being used. The plume issue was when you loaded 3 mavs onto the TER, the inboard mav's exhaust plume/exhaust plug can impinge on the horizontal tail. With a chance of damaging it. Would the 6x AGM-65 loadout have been used in a Fulda Gap style situation where the main idea is "oh my god, kill all the tanks!!"? I dunno... Possibly? 


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"This configuration [3 MAV on LAU-88] placed very high stress on the airframe and the inboard missile's exhaust impinged on the horizontal tail, causing the Air Force to restrict that load except in wartime."- Found in another forum, but with no replies to confirm or deny. Does sound reasonable to me though.
 

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On 1/10/2021 at 8:02 AM, fudabidu said:

And where are we supposed to draw the line? Automatic AAR, automatic trim, pre-aligned INS, pre-aligned MAVs ... what's next? An 'easy radar' option for people who can't figure out antenna elevation?

Someone apparently spent 20 minutes trying to boresight. Only thing that can go wrong is the target being out of Maverick range, so you can't lock and press BSGT. It's all over the internet, because so many people have problems with it.
So, now we need an option for it, because expecting people to use google for 5 minutes in 2021 is asking too much.

The skill floor is low enough already, especially online.

So I think something that's being missed is some of those functions are done be the ground crew. Alert aircraft are often fully aligned and ready to get airborne on a moment's notice. We can keep alot up and runing on ground power. Also I do think prealiged INS, TGP, and weapons should be a special option. It doesn't make the jet any more or lethal, and frankly time is finite. But it should be an option, not forced to work one way or the other. 

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On 1/9/2021 at 11:21 PM, falconbr said:

Hi,

 

If our goal is to stuck to simulate real F-16, this procedure is the must.

 

The borresight in PRE/VIS mode without TGP is also needed.

 

Best regards,

 

falconbr

That missiles need to be aligned is realistic, but that the pilot needs to do it when he enters the plane is not realistic, ground crew can pre-align the missille if u ask them. but u cant in dcs. The plane needs to be cleaned and washed from time to time as well, The airframe needs to be checked regularly also. It's not done by the pilot.

 

things as waiting minutes, or doing repetetive chores is not what i like. Fine that i can learn them but once i did, i don't think i'll enjoy aligning mavs for the 1000th time. Also this full fidelity f16 is not full fidelity at all yet. Its an early access module. NOBODY asked for 8 minutes alignment or the boresight procedure. We don't have ground radar sea radar of any of the toys on the jf17.  And what do they implement? chores.

 

For me, i was really excited when i found out about the f16, i did not realize that it was missing so much.

 

the mavs are actually a hassle to use in my opinion and the cbu97's are hassle free, more fun and more effective.

i can't set spi, no ground radar. yes full clickable cockpit, all kind of buttons that say click an animate and do nothing.

 

I tried the jf17 during the free trials and bought that one. update dtc data - copy.  f10 click click click BAM  waypoints set. you can shoot cruise missiles drag bombs, have al kinds of radars and modes, buttons work.

 

in the f16...waiting for 8 minutes ins align. lets put in 1 waypoint, go to f10, change so its metric, get a pen and paper north 12.23.34423 east 32.12.31231

ok press wpt, N put in all the numbers from youre note. next put in easting, remember to add a 0... ok now elevation, first waypoint done. f10 map, not next waypoint back to plane, put in the waypoint. do the same for the other 15 waypoints.

when done with that chore, get ready to find a target to align the missiles, aah to bad this airport has no object to align on, ah well. lets startover at another field.

 

meanwhile in the jeff i am actually having fun. its the full fidelity kind i like, and it doesn't  feel unrealistic at all. Also i have not found any bug. auto-ins alignment takes about 30 seconds. i can get ground crew to enter coordinates, i know how to do it the hard way too, but i need to do it every time i start up so. I am very glad i can delegate the chores i dont like to do everytime and with the jeff i get those options, i only miss one thing and that's the vipers thrust and speed. 


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On 1/10/2021 at 6:46 PM, Falconeer said:

 

1. Full fidelity model. Its already in the name...... you want it real, you got it real. If people want some sort of easy mode, they might be better of in another module like flaming cliffs. There is a reason why only the best pilots get to fly fighter jets.

 

2. People don't need to align them in the air, you can do it on the ground too. Just make sure you put master arm switch in simulate and ground jettison switch to enabled. 

 

 

the jeff is full fidelity , but u can delegate chores. make the chores like full ins alignment, and the maverick alignment optional for delegation to the ground crew. same for waypoints, set them in f10 and let the ground crew update the data card (if i remember correctly from that other sim the f16 has a data card as well.). Which is a nice bridge to full fidelity wich the f16 is not. it has buttons that say click and do nothing. The real f16 has a datatransfer cartridge, its non existant in dcs. many many things aren't there. Jeff is what a full fidelity plane should be. there are plans to make the f16 full fidelity, it is not at the moment. 

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16 hours ago, DoctorVixen said:

things as waiting minutes, or doing repetetive chores is not what i like. Fine that i can learn them but once i did, i don't think i'll enjoy aligning mavs for the 1000th time. Also this full fidelity f16 is not full fidelity at all yet. Its an early access module. NOBODY asked for 8 minutes alignment or the boresight procedure. We don't have ground radar sea radar of any of the toys on the jf17.  And what do they implement? chores.

 

I don't want to be harsh, but I don't know what to say other than welcome to the real F-16? Even if they wouldn't have come at the time they did, they would've come eventually. And as far as I know, you only need to boresight the mavericks when starting on the ground; and if you're after something quick and you don't want to spend time doing 'chores' starting on the ground is not what you're probably going to do.

 

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For me, i was really excited when i found out about the f16, i did not realize that it was missing so much.

 

Yes and I agree and this is almost a universal frustration, personally I think the F-16C should've only hit OB in the state it's in now; in the meantime the other sim is better at the moment for the F-16s systems, as well as having proper DTC and mission planning functionality, so long as you can handle the drop in graphics and cockpit interaction (IMO). 

 

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the mavs are actually a hassle to use in my opinion and the cbu97's are hassle free, more fun and more effective.

 

Well, nobody is forcing you to use the mavericks...

 

If you want to have options like 'realistic Mavericks' and pre-aligned weapons, then fine go for it.

 

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i can't set spi, no ground radar. yes full clickable cockpit, all kind of buttons that say click an animate and do nothing.

 

Yes it's a pain, and the F-16C is one such example of EA done badly, at least on release. Luckily ED hopefully have learnt their lesson and have got the message that this shouldn't repeat. I imagine the F-16s A/G RADAR modes will come after the Hornet's is finished (just missing/tuning GMT, SEA and TA AFAIK).

 

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I tried the jf17 during the free trials and bought that one. update dtc data - copy.  f10 click click click BAM  waypoints set. you can shoot cruise missiles drag bombs, have al kinds of radars and modes, buttons work.

 

Yes, the JF-17 had a fantastic release and Deka have been very good at getting it complete, as well as doing a great job on the module itself, with more greatness coming. I really enjoyed testing it out, even if I didn't do much.

 

Only thing is, the JF-17 is not an F-16C...

 

As for the F10 menu, it's done as a workaround until we get proper mission planning and data cartridge functionality implemented into the core. After that, this will cease to be an issue, particularly on multiplayer servers.

 

By mission planner I mean something like the mission editor, that you can bring up either before you spawn or after you've spawned (so long as you're cold), whereby you can edit all the waypoints (for the F-16, that includes flight plan, pre-planned threats, additional lines and open points (used for targets), maybe we could even have it be done automatically (like the other sim). The other thing is the data cartridge, which will not only have all the steerpoints/waypoints but also countermeasure profiles, communication presets, default displays for each mode, IFF plan, loadout and weapon profiles etc. 

 

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in the f16...waiting for 8 minutes ins align.

 

Then use the stored heading, this problem is why it exists. It cuts the time down to something like 2 minutes, like the JF-17.

 

It's the same in the Mirage 2000C, F/A-18 and Tomcat.

 

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lets put in 1 waypoint, go to f10, change so its metric, get a pen and paper north 12.23.34423 east 32.12.31231

ok press wpt, N put in all the numbers from youre note. next put in easting, remember to add a 0... ok now elevation, first waypoint done. f10 map, not next waypoint back to plane, put in the waypoint. do the same for the other 15 waypoints.

 

Again, this is a problem that exists for multiple aircraft with INS systems, including the Hornet and A-10C; we'll have to wait for a proper mission planner; and will stop being an issue when the data cartridge and mission planner are implemented, along with the F-16s DTE page.

 

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when done with that chore, get ready to find a target to align the missiles, aah to bad this airport has no object to align on, ah well. lets startover at another field.

 

Well, the boresighting procedure should be done on far away objects, to minimise parallax errors. And I'm having a hard time accepting the boresight procedure as being this massive chore of an issue.

 

And you can do it while airborne.

 

Just stick a steerpoint in the editor (if possible) near some isolated object, I use electrical pylons, but anything will do. Once started and ready to taxi, power on the mavericks (if you don't want to wait), by the time you're in the air and approaching the steerpoint they should be ready to go. Select the steerpoint (so that it's the SPI - should be a crosshair over it in the HSD), fire up the TGP and press CZ to slave it to the SPI (which should be over your object), and command whatever track you want (so far 2 button clicks), have the Mavericks in PRE and they should slave to the SPI too, just a little off; adjust as necessary and hit BGST. All in all a grand total of 4-5 button presses and a few seconds of slewing, with another 2 button presses and 5 seconds of slewing for each AGM-65.

 

For a full set of Mavericks it doesn't take me much more than a minute.

 

Quote

meanwhile in the jeff i am actually having fun. its the full fidelity kind i like.

 

That's fine, but you probably should've realised the F-16C isn't a JF-17, which should've been pretty obvious. 

 

I think the main issue here is that the JF-17 is a lot closer to being feature complete, whereas the F-16C isn't.


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3 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

 

 

I don't want to be harsh, but I don't know what to say other than welcome to the real F-16? Even if they wouldn't have come at the time they did, they would've come eventually. And as far as I know, you only need to boresight the mavericks when starting on the ground; and if you're after something quick and you don't want to spend time doing 'chores' starting on the ground is not what you're probably going to do.

 

 

Yes and I agree and this is almost a universal frustration, personally I think the F-16C should've only hit OB in the state it's in now; in the meantime the other sim is better at the moment for the F-16s systems, as well as having proper DTC and mission planning functionality, so long as you can handle the drop in graphics and cockpit interaction (IMO). 

 

 

Well, nobody is forcing you to use the mavericks...

 

If you want to have options like 'realistic Mavericks' and pre-aligned weapons, then fine go for it.

 

 

Yes it's a pain, and the F-16C is one such example of EA done badly, at least on release. Luckily ED hopefully have learnt their lesson and have got the message that this shouldn't repeat. I imagine the F-16s A/G RADAR modes will come after the Hornets is finished (just missing/tuning GMT, SEA and TA AFAIK).

 

 

Yes, the JF-17 had a fantastic release and Deka have been very good at getting it complete, as well as doing a great job on the module itself, with more greatness coming. I really enjoyed testing it out, even if I didn't do much.

 

Only thing is, the JF-17 is not an F-16C...

 

As for the F10 menu, it's done as a workaround until we get proper mission planning and data cartridge functionality implemented into the core. After that, this will cease to be an issue, particularly on multiplayer servers.

 

By mission planner I mean something like the mission editor, that you can bring up either before you spawn or after you've spawned (so long as you're cold), whereby you can edit all the waypoints (for the F-16, that includes flight plan, pre-planned threats, additional lines and open points (used for targets).  

 

 

Then use the stored heading, this problem is why it exists. It cuts the time down to something like 2 minutes, like the JF-17.

 

It's the same in the Mirage 2000C, F/A-18 and Tomcat.

 

 

Again, this is a problem that exists for multiple aircraft with INS systems, including the Hornet and A-10C; we'll have to wait for a proper mission planner; and will stop being an issue when the data cartridge and mission planner are implemented, along with the F-16s DTE page.

 

 

Well, the boresighting procedure should be done on far away objects, to minimise parallax errors. And I'm having a hard time accepting the boresight procedure as being this massive chore of an issue.

 

And you can do it while airborne.

 

Just stick a waypoint in the editor (if possible) near some isolated object, I use electrical pylons, but anything will do. Once started power on the mavericks, by the time you're ready they should be ready to go. Select the steerpoint (so that it's the SPI - should be a crosshair over it, fire up the TGP and press CZ to slave it to the SPI (which should be over your object), and command whatever track you want (so far 2 button clicks), have the Mavericks in PRE and the y should slave to the SPI too, adjust as necessary and hit BGST. All in all a grand total of 4-5 button presses and a few seconds of slewing, with another 2 button presses for each AGM-65.

 

For a full set of Mavericks it doesn't take me much more than a minute.

 

 

That's fine, but you probably should've realised the F-16C isn't a JF-17, which should've been pretty obvious. 

 

I am sorry , while writing all of this i went into rant mode (apologies).

 

I love what ED is doing and i also love the f16, so much so it can get me into rant mode, so it's actually a compliment when i rant like that :).

But i have had some disappointments, i could have read it was missing many features, but i wouldn't be able not to buy it anyway. I've been here since fc3, the first ka-50 and then dcs world....

 

The thing that keeps me coming back is the realism. But how deka developed this module is pretty impressive, there are some tasks u can do two ways yourself or via delegation, in wich the latter is faster and easier. Every client can decide how he would like to play and it doesn't affect the realism in my opinion of a full fidelity model.

 

 

 

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42 minutes ago, DoctorVixen said:

I am sorry , while writing all of this i went into rant mode (apologies).

 

None needed, I share many of your frustrations (which sounds more related to DTC and mission planning, both being things ED is yet to deliver, and if it's something akin to the other sim, then fantastic).

 

42 minutes ago, DoctorVixen said:

I love what ED is doing and i also love the f16, so much so it can get me into rant mode, so it's actually a compliment when i rant like that :).

But i have had some disappointments, i could have read it was missing many features, but i wouldn't be able not to buy it anyway. I've been here since fc3, the first ka-50 and then dcs world...

 

Absolutely, and don't worry, you're far from alone. How ED are rolling is that they're going to finish the Hornet first, then the F-16C. IOne thing I will say that's weird with the F-16 is that while it is less feature complete, some of its features are more in depth; such as the Maverick BSGT and HARM limitations and modes, which is kinda confusing if you think about it.

 

42 minutes ago, DoctorVixen said:

The thing that keeps me coming back is the realism. But how deka developed this module is pretty impressive, there are some tasks u can do two ways yourself or via delegation, in wich the latter is faster and easier. Every client can decide how he would like to play and it doesn't affect the realism in my opinion of a full fidelity model.

 

Again, this is something that we're waiting on a full mission planner and data cartridge being implemented, at which point this issue would be solved. I will agree that Deka's JF-17 is a fantastic module, done very well.

 

 

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13 hours ago, DoctorVixen said:

the jeff is full fidelity , but u can delegate chores. make the chores like full ins alignment, and the maverick alignment optional for delegation to the ground crew. same for waypoints, set them in f10 and let the ground crew update the data card (if i remember correctly from that other sim the f16 has a data card as well.). Which is a nice bridge to full fidelity wich the f16 is not. it has buttons that say click and do nothing. The real f16 has a datatransfer cartridge, its non existant in dcs. many many things aren't there. Jeff is what a full fidelity plane should be. there are plans to make the f16 full fidelity, it is not at the moment. 

You do realize its an "early acces" F16?

 

Many people simply don't understand or refuse to understand what this term means


Edited by Falconeer
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I love boresighting - with practice you get better it's a thing you can do in like 5 seconds i would like to see it expanded to other modules that have the requirement.

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As a side note: i love the framing certain folks are pushing here again. It's like boresighting is completely killing their gaming experience by making the Maverick unusable and thereby DCS close to impossible to play 😄

 

In reality everything NOT boresighting at all changes is: you have to manually move the seeker a bit if you handoff from the TGP. Thats it already.

If you don't handoff there is actually no change at all. You use the Maverick just as usual slewing manually.

 

If those had invested the time they wasted writing victim posts into learning to boresight instead, they had already mastered it already. Five pages worth strawmen. Its hilarious.

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...in the meantime..i've gotten used to aligning the mavericks now, and it doesn't take me very long anymore. U don't have to do it either, u can slew the first target manual, and press bsgt before u fire, then the next mav on the same rack will be aligned at least. 

Also in multiplayer it could be a bit of a chore, but if u land your plane you dont have to realign again after rearming i think.

 

I am wondering though, do the pilots align the missiles normally or will a technician do it?

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It doesn't bother me really but I wouldn't mind a Special option to turn the requirement on or off, like INS alignment on some aircraft. Sometimes I am in the mood for full realism, sometimes I'd rather get airborn quicker.

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57 minutes ago, DoctorVixen said:

I am wondering though, do the pilots align the missiles normally or will a technician do it?


The pilot does it in the air, preferably at maximum possible range. On the ground you can't get the required view range (obstacles, terrain, etc), you'd get parallax errors and the Mavericks wouldn't align properly with the HUD and TGP.

These errors aren't modeled yet, but that's probably going to change at some point.
https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/258806-maverick-bore-sighting-is-always-perfect/?tab=comments#comment-4539578

 

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4 hours ago, fudabidu said:


The pilot does it in the air, preferably at maximum possible range. On the ground you can't get the required view range (obstacles, terrain, etc), you'd get parallax errors and the Mavericks wouldn't align properly with the HUD and TGP.

These errors aren't modeled yet, but that's probably going to change at some point.
https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/258806-maverick-bore-sighting-is-always-perfect/?tab=comments#comment-4539578

 

do they set a waypoint especially for this and do the slave onto some landmark at that waypoint, or do they setup some object to align on? Or do they align on the intended target during a first recognition pass?

Just interested.

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4 hours ago, DoctorVixen said:

do they set a waypoint especially for this and do the slave onto some landmark at that waypoint, or do they setup some object to align on? Or do they align on the intended target during a first recognition pass?

Just interested.

 

Take a look at the 476th NTTR mission if you got the map. Will attach a screenshot too.

 

There's not only the actual flight plan on the DTC but a big heap of extra waypoints like local landmarks, all the nav beacons, points of interest, all the airfields... my guess would be there's a lot in there for every egress that is suited for in-flight boresighting after you finished all the takeoff chores. Just got to pick one when planning your mission that is close. On the northern egress from Nellis to Sally for example there's a nice compound just south of dry lake landmark. Boresighting on the target itself wouldn't be an option i guess since you don't want to hang around longer than needed, especially because you've got to boresight <7 NM. You could also boresight after fence-in once the Mav is online, but you can never be 100% sure there's something you can boresight at (just think of a desert).

 

So my guess would be right after takeoff since you got a well suited and known spot in a safe environment.

 

edit: btw, nice to see you got used to it. It really isn't a big deal and becomes second nature quite fast 😉

 

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Edited by Desert Fox

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Hey thx for the extra info.

Btw i haven't heard of these missions before, i play a lot of multiplayer lately, it has a different vibe, and i am starting to develop some bad habits.

 

I should do some proper missions some more and i haven't really used the nevada map much, and now i seem to have a nice use for it.

 

thx again  😛

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Curious question shouldn’t the bore sighting also be something the F-18 should be doing also? I’m a little confused as to why this feature is only exclusive to the f-16. As the F-18 is coming to a end I don’t see any hints ED is implementing this to the F-18 so it seems to me the F-18 isn’t planned to get it.

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1 minute ago, Blinky.ben said:

Curious question shouldn’t the bore sighting also be something the F-18 should be doing also? I’m a little confused as to why this feature is only exclusive to the f-16. As the F-18 is coming to a end I don’t see any hints ED is implementing this to the F-18 so it seems to me the F-18 isn’t planned to get it.

 

I'm guessing so, since hardware and method are pretty much the same (align Mav seeker to TGP). Already opened a wishlist thread for the A-10C (II) (was wondering there wasn't one already) to have it implemented.

 

Not flying the F-18 tho and i got no clue if you can slew/handoff from TGP in the 18, so i didn't make a thread over there.

 

13 hours ago, DoctorVixen said:

Hey thx for the extra info.

Btw i haven't heard of these missions before, i play a lot of multiplayer lately, it has a different vibe, and i am starting to develop some bad habits.

 

I should do some proper missions some more and i haven't really used the nevada map much, and now i seem to have a nice use for it.

 

thx again  😛

 

The blokes from 476th doing an incredible job recreating NTTR and RL procedures in general. Their download section got a good load of helpful documents and if you register on their website, you'll get an additional NTTR tab with an interactive NTTR map and loads of extra info like ordinance restrictions, radio, flight levels, range entry... for all the ranges. They are just awesome ❤️ Doing most of my training on the NTTR since i got their missions and weapon range objects.

bts_100.jpg.22eae5ddd2a463fc09375990ad043870.jpg

 

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Wishlist:  Northern Germany/Baltic Sea theater | DCS level Su-25A or SM

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Actually... was just taking a long walk an thought about how this issue (mounting the Mav on the pylon mis-aligning it's seeker head) should, in theory, not only affect TGP handoff but aligning in general to some external source, or am i wrong?

If i align the Mav in the F-16s PRE mode to a steerpoint for example, how does the Mav seeker know where that steerpoint is (or: that it's actually pointing there exactly), when it is mis-aligned? It's pretty much like hitting a pinata when you are blindfolded and took a 360. You don't know if it's been a 358 or a 363 until you peek...

 

This came to my mind when i thought about how you can slew the Mav to a TAD SPI, HMCS SPI or any other external source in the A-10C. How would it need alignment for the TGP source but perfectly know from TAD or HMCS, markpoint... ?

 

Anyone?

bts_100.jpg.22eae5ddd2a463fc09375990ad043870.jpg

 

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10 hours ago, Desert Fox said:

If i align the Mav in the F-16s PRE mode to a steerpoint for example, how does the Mav seeker know where that steerpoint is (or: that it's actually pointing there exactly), when it is mis-aligned?

This came to my mind when i thought about how you can slew the Mav to a TAD SPI, HMCS SPI or any other external source in the A-10C. How would it need alignment for the TGP source but perfectly know from TAD or HMCS, markpoint... ?


When boresighting you're not aligning the Mavericks to the TGP, you're aligning them to the whole plane. You can also boresight in VIS using the HUD, but most people tend to do it with the TGP.

The SOI shouldn't matter at all.
In practice the plane takes a known location and only tells the Maverick which direction to look. Boresighting makes sure the plane is sending the correct directions. Without it you would always get the same offset, regardless of which SOI is used.

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13 hours ago, fudabidu said:

When boresighting you're not aligning the Mavericks to the TGP, you're aligning them to the whole plane.

What process aligns the TGP with the plane? 

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Can't find the manual in a reasonable time, but kept coming across this line: "An on-gimbal inertial navigation sensor establishes line-of-sight and automatic boresighting capability."

So, I'd assume the TGP boresights itself by exchanging INS information with the plane during TGP startup or there is a DED menu for it. The Maverick doesn't have such an INS, hence the manual boresight procedure.

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14 hours ago, fudabidu said:

When boresighting you're not aligning the Mavericks to the TGP, you're aligning them to the whole plane.

I think since you directly correlate the images, you are in fact aligning Mav directly with TGP. Any alignment error between TGP and the airframe becomes irrelevant. 

"Subsonic is below Mach 1, supersonic is up to Mach 5. Above Mach 5 is hypersonic. And reentry from space, well, that's like Mach a lot."

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