What do people thinking of having to align the Mavs?

[Pekins]

Hello, new F16C owner here, former A10C and FA18C simmer.

 

I just wanted to know the overall opinion of the users on having to manually align the mav with the TGP.

 

I'm not a fan, I think its a frustrating mechanic, despite of it being correct to real life or not. Even if doing the boresight alignement when on the ground, some times you have nothing to lock on, and if you do you'd have to stop in the taxiway/ramp blocking people behind you.

 

And in the air, well for me personally its difficult, if you're too far you wont get any lock so you cant hit BRSG to align, and if you're too close, well the Viper is fast so you'd have to manage it quickly.

 

what do you guys think?

[Speedywrx]

Sometimes I like hopping into a jet and starting 'er up from cold and dark.

 

Sometimes I just like designing a mission where the jet is already started up and hot on the ramp.

 

Perhaps there could be an option that when the jet loads already started up that you do not have to align the mavs, but if you're starting up from cold and dark you would have to.

[Jetguy06]

I'm all for the option for those that don't want to have to deal with it, i.e. for hot starts, but I'm all for max realism, so I love it!!

[twistking]

i found it to be a nice feature. it would be good to know though, if the mavs would need to be aligned every flight.

i would assume, that if the pylon/tgp is set up once it should still be somewhat aligned on the next sortie. if so, maybe there could be a toggle in ME. also ED could check how much de-alignment you would have in reality in a best case scenario, if pilot or ground chief just had a lucky day and mavs would maybe "good enough" without manually aligning.

so maybe good enough for manual hand-off, but not good enough for auto hand-off etc.

 

in short, i would imagine that there is some room to fine tune without making it unrealistic immediately. but generally i like it, because it adds realism and gives you a better understanding of the weapon system.

Edited January 9, 2021 by twistking

[falconbr]

Hi,

 

If our goal is to stuck to simulate real F-16, this procedure is the must.

 

The borresight in PRE/VIS mode without TGP is also needed.

 

Best regards,

 

falconbr

[taco3rd]

I can't boresight them half the time when I'm on the ground. I usually use a random stationary truck on an airfield  but sometimes the WPN page for the mavs won't lock it up. I've stopped using them because I wasting 20 minutes trying to boresight them, then have to use the mav wpn page anyway to slew to the target. I must be doing something wrong, but I wouldn't classify myself as a rookie and I've watched a couple videos. I dunno.

[Donglr]

I am not against the feature per se, but I strongly dislike the fact, that the F16 is the only jet where it is needed. My understanding is that in reality this is required for every jet because there always is some degree of misalignment. Either implement it for every jet or for none. Currently it feels like punishment for F16 owners.

 

And since were are already on he topic of inconveniences: GBU laser codes

The inability of changing them in the air is a major disadvantage and actually takes away some of the fun in multiplayer servers that run any kind  of JTAC scripts/units. In reality the JTAC could change to our laser code, but that is impossible in DCS, so we have to set the JTAC's code - except the F16, we are left out of the fun.

Apparently in reality the codes can only be set by switches on the ground, nonetheless any other jet can change them in the air, although unrealistic. Again, why is the F16 the only one with that limitation? Again feels like getting punished for choosing the F16.

[Deano87]

I actually enjoy aligning my Mavs, but then again I'm also the kind of weirdo who likes turbulent crosswind night ILS approaches in cloud down to minimums lol... Sooooo I'm probably not normal 

[jross194]

After playing a game I'm hungry. After running a simulation I'm sated.

[fudabidu]

Great feature. More buttons to press, more procedures to learn, every plane should have it (where applicable)

It can be done anywhere, anytime and on almost any object. It's really not that difficult to find some random house and boresight both pylons in less than a minute.

 

[Bunny Clark]

I hope and expect that this feature will come to all aircraft that slave Mavericks to other sensors. I imagine we've seen it in the Viper first because there are clear unclassified documents that detail the procedure. But hopefully that doesn't keep it as an exclusive thing to the Viper, that would be unfortunate and definitely feel like a Viper specific restriction when it shouldn't be.

2 hours ago, taco3rd said:

I can't boresight them half the time when I'm on the ground.

It's generally recommended to not boresight on the ground. Typically, this is something that would be done during cruise to the target area. 

[Fri13]

I think we need to understand people who doesn't have whole night to set their aircraft for take-off and combat.

We do have various cheats/assisting features (infinite weapons etc) for overall mission. And I think we need to get individual unit values as well. So you can select one vehicle and tick there settings like infinite weapons, unlimited fuel, zero fuel consumption etc. And there would be as well then setting for "Mavericks aligned" or "TGP standby" or "INS aligned".

Is it cheating? Sure... It is assisting the player to enjoy for the module. And of course these are same way enforced by default Off, and then mission designer can Enforce them On. But should they be possible be set by the client default settings? I don't think so.

[Viking 1-1]

I like it, even though I understand that you dont like it.

 

For me it is a part of the Immersion and I enjoy setting up my jet properly.

[fudabidu]

24 minutes ago, Fri13 said:

I think we need to understand people who doesn't have whole night to set their aircraft for take-off and combat.

Rearm, start up, power up MAVs during INS, take off, boresight, resume mission. It's 1-2 minutes right after take-off and there is nothing difficult about it. Is this already too much to ask players to do?

Equal systems for everybody, no more shortcuts allowed.

[Fri13]

33 minutes ago, fudabidu said:

Rearm, start up, power up MAVs during INS, take off, boresight, resume mission. It's 1-2 minutes right after take-off and there is nothing difficult about it. Is this already too much to ask players to do?

 

Yes, it is from someone. That is why we do have various assisting features, if not for enjoyment, then for testing purposes. Like go to test something 20 times in a row that takes 2-3 minutes each time, and that few minute thing starts to be annoying.

 

 

33 minutes ago, fudabidu said:

Equal systems for everybody, no more shortcuts allowed.

 

I disagree. We need to support those who want to have easier learning curve, or get things done in different phases. This is why Early Access is nice as you get features dropped one by one. Sometimes it has drawbacks that you learn wrong method or functions shouldn't be there and they get removed or changed in later on. But it makes learning easy.

Same way we have GAME mode so we can get various other people enjoy from DCS. As we need to remember that DCS is not just for hardcore fans, but as well for casual gamers. That doesn't mean the game needs to be designed them in mind, but that we should have various assisting features that some people can use. Be it labels or INS alignment or what ever.

[Blinky.ben]

If the F-16 has to do it then shouldn’t all the other modules that use the MAV have to do it also? Like the F-18, A-10

[Machalot]

13 hours ago, twistking said:

i found it to be a nice feature. it would be good to know though, if the mavs would need to be aligned every flight.

i would assume, that if the pylon/tgp is set up once it should still be somewhat aligned on the next sortie. if so, maybe there could be a toggle in ME. also ED could check how much de-alignment you would have in reality in a best case scenario, if pilot or ground chief just had a lucky day and mavs would maybe "good enough" without manually aligning.

so maybe good enough for manual hand-off, but not good enough for auto hand-off etc.

 

in short, i would imagine that there is some room to fine tune without making it unrealistic immediately. but generally i like it, because it adds realism and gives you a better understanding of the weapon system.

 

When I fly multiple sorties in the same jet, I find the Mavs remain aligned after rearming them.  Might be a modeling simplification, or might be that the primary misalignment is between the rack and the jet, rather than the rack and the missile.

[Sacarino111]

Hi all.

I also think that boresight is a real feature, and I like to have it  simulated, wich doesn t mean there souldn t be an option (like the INS alignement) taht could be ticked in or out in ME. If the designer wants it, he will keep it , if not, disable it. More possibilities doesn t mean less realism.

For me , keep it, and implement it if necesary in all modules that should do ithe boresight, as an option.

Saludos.+Saca111

[Falconeer]

1 hour ago, Machalot said:

When I fly multiple sorties in the same jet, I find the Mavs remain aligned after rearming them.  Might be a modeling simplification, or might be that the primary misalignment is between the rack and the jet, rather than the rack and the missile.

That would actually be a bug, since the misalignment happens when loading the Mavericks on the rack 

[DoctorVixen]

i love it man. now i can align the missiles, shooting them is such a waste, love the ins alignment too. hope we can wash and vacuum the plane after the next update. fingers crossed.

[fudabidu]

9 hours ago, Fri13 said:

Yes, it is from someone. [...] I disagree. We need to support those who want to have easier learning curve, or get things done in different phases.

And where are we supposed to draw the line? Automatic AAR, automatic trim, pre-aligned INS, pre-aligned MAVs ... what's next? An 'easy radar' option for people who can't figure out antenna elevation?

Someone apparently spent 20 minutes trying to boresight. Only thing that can go wrong is the target being out of Maverick range, so you can't lock and press BSGT. It's all over the internet, because so many people have problems with it.
So, now we need an option for it, because expecting people to use google for 5 minutes in 2021 is asking too much.

The skill floor is low enough already, especially online.

[Machalot]

4 hours ago, fudabidu said:

And where are we supposed to draw the line? Automatic AAR, automatic trim, pre-aligned INS, pre-aligned MAVs ... what's next? An 'easy radar' option for people who can't figure out antenna elevation?

Someone apparently spent 20 minutes trying to boresight. Only thing that can go wrong is the target being out of Maverick range, so you can't lock and press BSGT. It's all over the internet, because so many people have problems with it.
So, now we need an option for it, because expecting people to use google for 5 minutes in 2021 is asking too much.

The skill floor is low enough already, especially online.

I agree with your general point against watering down the realism. But I think there's an obvious and uncontroversial place to draw the line. INS aligned and Mav boresighted are actual realistic states the IRL aircraft can be in. So they should be states it can spawn in (assuming an otherwise realistic state, e.g. cold start aircraft can't spawn with INS aligned and Mavs boresighted, but air start can).  Your examples of automatic trim, auto AAR,  and infinite-elevation radar are truly unrealistic functions and states for the IRL jet so they should not be allowed in the full fidelity model. 

 

The other major thing people struggle with (besides out of range) when boredigbting Mavs is spotting and slewing to the TGP target on the WPN screen with enough time/FOR left to complete the process before the Mav hits the gimbal limit and you have to start over. I imagine it's even harder for people who can't afford a good HOTAS.  Especially with how touchy the slew controls can be. Just like anything, this takes practice, and some people moreso than others. 

[Falconeer]

19 minutes ago, Machalot said:

the full fidelity model. 

 

The other major thing people struggle with (besides out of range) when boredigbting Mavs is spotting and slewing to the TGP target on the WPN screen with enough time/FOR left to complete the process before the Mav hits the gimbal limit and you have to start over. I imagine it's even harder for people who can't afford a good HOTAS.  Especially with how touchy the slew controls can be. Just like anything, this takes practice, and some people moreso than others. 

 

1. Full fidelity model. Its already in the name...... you want it real, you got it real. If people want some sort of easy mode, they might be better of in another module like flaming cliffs. There is a reason why only the best pilots get to fly fighter jets.

 

2. People don't need to align them in the air, you can do it on the ground too. Just make sure you put master arm switch in simulate and ground jettison switch to enabled. 

 

Edited January 10, 2021 by Falconeer

[Fri13]

4 hours ago, fudabidu said:

And where are we supposed to draw the line? Automatic AAR, automatic trim, pre-aligned INS, pre-aligned MAVs ... what's next? An 'easy radar' option for people who can't figure out antenna elevation?

 

There is already a Easy Radar...

 

4 hours ago, fudabidu said:

Someone apparently spent 20 minutes trying to boresight. Only thing that can go wrong is the target being out of Maverick range, so you can't lock and press BSGT. It's all over the internet, because so many people have problems with it.
So, now we need an option for it, because expecting people to use google for 5 minutes in 2021 is asking too much.

 

Yes, we need to draw the line for somewhere, but it doesn't mean it can't exist.

 

4 hours ago, fudabidu said:

The skill floor is low enough already, especially online.

 

Yes, why we need the GAME MODE to be more recommended for the people than the SIM MODE. Sorry, not all are cut to be a fighter pilots. Not everyone are ready to read a hundreds of pages of manual to get a basic gasp about topic and then start to apply it in practice.

 

The online is full of all kind tutorials and videos about "I am huge Top Gun fan, now I get to fly the Tom Cat!" and they just fly it like they would be playing in a arcade cave a coin machine... Maybe for them the War of Thunder would be more fitting game, but they still want more as they want to feel that they would be more. But are they ready to learn everything through hard way? No... Should they? Not at once.

 

But eventually be ready to do all properly? Yes...

 

[Machalot]

50 minutes ago, Falconeer said:

1. Full fidelity model. Its already in the name...... you want it real, you got it real. If people want some sort of easy mode, they might be better of in another module like flaming cliffs. There is a reason why only the best pilots get to fly fighter jets.

I'm not talking about removing fidelity. I'm talking about spawning a jet in a perfectly realistic state other than cold start.

 

Edited January 10, 2021 by Machalot