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Remove 15 seconds warm-up of ECM.


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4 hours ago, dundun92 said:

I dont think anyone is disagreeing that ECM should affect radars negatively, thats the point of ECM, but a) its not just to ARH missiles, and b), its not some EMP pulse that just kills the radar upon activation. HOJ/ECCM exists for a reason. But yes, ECM effects in game are overall very poor, inconsistent between modules and need some serious improvement, that I do agree 

 

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Edited by Cmptohocah

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On 1/19/2021 at 3:54 PM, GGTharos said:

I was busy thinking one up while you're trying to make yourself look like sort of martyr.  I've already sent my suggestion to ED but obviously they'll do whatever it is they want 🙂

 

In case your curious, my proposal as a quick fix waiting for some deeper ECM/ECCM modeling was to handle rate-limiting on the missile side and add a bit of error to the seeker if the ECM is on during terminal.

 

In other words, the missiles will no longer care how often you (or anyone) blink your jammer, they'll only consider one status change every x seconds, change to some HoJ guidance profile and add a little miss distance.   It should reduce missile Pk without making them completely useless.

 

Interesting, how would it work?

 

Would the missile plug in a less than optimal navigation constant into its pro nav formula degrading HOJ shot lethality?

Would it have effects on the APN as in removing it in some circumstances?

 

Also later on you mention DRFM ECCM techniques irl. Could you elaborate in theory how this would work? Surely discussing that from a purely theoretical perspective isn't illegal.

Does it necessitate an AESA seeker as well? Can it be done with a high end MSA radar like a Captor?

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1 hour ago, TaxDollarsAtWork said:

Would the missile plug in a less than optimal navigation constant into its pro nav formula degrading HOJ shot lethality?

Would it have effects on the APN as in removing it in some circumstances?

 

Basically yes.  Back in the LOMAC days, the missile would switch to pure for HoJ.  I'm not suggesting going that far.

 

1 hour ago, TaxDollarsAtWork said:

Also later on you mention DRFM ECCM techniques irl. Could you elaborate in theory how this would work? Surely discussing that from a purely theoretical perspective isn't illegal.

Does it necessitate an AESA seeker as well? Can it be done with a high end MSA radar like a Captor?

 

I don't know the required techniques but I don't believe that you need an AESA for this.  DRFM jammers 'do it better' mainly because there's no signal degradation of the signal in the repeat loop - that's as much as I know about that.   But, it's still a repeater so in theory there is a time lag you could take advantage of.

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12 hours ago, dundun92 said:

[...]ECM effects in game are overall very poor, inconsistent between modules and need some serious improvement[...]

Yes, they do, but about that consistency between modules... I mean all radars in different modules should be affected by ECM in some way* - but this should not be the same effect for all of them. I hope this is what you meant and we all agree upon that different systems have both different tech and power of their ECM.

 

*maybe even some new radars/ECCM are so much modern or powerful over some old jamming types that should not be affected at all

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11 hours ago, draconus said:

Yes, they do, but about that consistency between modules... I mean all radars in different modules should be affected by ECM in some way* - but this should not be the same effect for all of them. I hope this is what you meant and we all agree upon that different systems have both different tech and power of their ECM.

 

*maybe even some new radars/ECCM are so much modern or powerful over some old jamming types that should not be affected at all

100%, what im referring to is that some modules are unnafected by ECM, some are, some can jam and yet dont have ECM affects, etc

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  • 2 weeks later...

Please, please, please, please remove this completely illogical timer. This sim is turning into a joke. I can't lock an F/A-18 'cause it has an instantaneous "God like" ECM and yet I need to wait until my ECM warms as if I am waiting for the soup to be ready in my microwave. I mean seriously. 

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15 часов назад, Cmptohocah сказал:

Please, please, please, please remove this completely illogical timer. This sim is turning into a joke. I can't lock an F/A-18 'cause it has an instantaneous "God like" ECM and yet I need to wait until my ECM warms as if I am waiting for the soup to be ready in my microwave. I mean seriously. 

Let's offer ED chaff and flare warm up

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On 2/2/2021 at 5:21 PM, Cmptohocah said:

Please, please, please, please remove this completely illogical timer. This sim is turning into a joke. I can't lock an F/A-18 'cause it has an instantaneous "God like" ECM and yet I need to wait until my ECM warms as if I am waiting for the soup to be ready in my microwave. I mean seriously. 

I mean, you could just not lock F-18s outside 22nm, solves the "issue" of his jammer, and why do you need to blink ECM anyway? (not defending the 15sec timer, it does need to go, but the way ECM is handled also needs to be changed as well). Why not just leave ECM on all the time?. Like personally from my experience flying the F-15 and Flanker, I never need to blink ECM unless i was trying to reproduce missile exploits like the current one. Just turn it on before engagment, then turn off if I need to notch.

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Not about blinking its just the fact F-18 F-14 do not have a warm up timer, Regardless if its fc3 or not, People want realism lets do realism. You can blink F-18 jammer anyway just set the XMT switch job done. 

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13 hours ago, dundun92 said:

I mean, you could just not lock F-18s outside 22nm, solves the "issue" of his jammer, and why do you need to blink ECM anyway? (not defending the 15sec timer, it does need to go, but the way ECM is handled also needs to be changed as well). Why not just leave ECM on all the time?. Like personally from my experience flying the F-15 and Flanker, I never need to blink ECM unless i was trying to reproduce missile exploits like the current one. Just turn it on before engagment, then turn off if I need to notch.

If you fly in a Su-27 against an AI F-15C, the Eagle will blink its ECM on/off when you attempt to lock it, so you won't be able to get a lock until the burn through. This is exactly what the Hornet does now.
Disparity comes from: I can't do the same thing to the Hornet that the Hornet does to me. I could, but then we have the timer set.

This is the reason why I said: "Let's remove the Hornet's ECM affecting the FC3 planes radar." Just like the FC3 planes' ECM did nothing to the Hornet before.


Edited by Cmptohocah
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Exactly what the above post says!

ECM implementation should be consistent across all platforms. No BS argument can go around this fact.

So,@ED please fix.

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1 minute ago, Breakshot said:

ECM implementation should be consistent across all platforms.

Yes, for current DCS implementation. But as soon as the ECM starts to be anything more than on/off SPJ or all-around noise jammer the modules should be modeled differently according to their capabilities and production time.

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5 minutes ago, draconus said:

Yes, for current DCS implementation. But as soon as the ECM starts to be anything more than on/off SPJ or all-around noise jammer the modules should be modeled differently according to their capabilities and production time.

Regarding Su-27/F15/F-16/16/18/14 there is no intel how effective jammers would be. I understand what you mean but that difference should seen between MIG-21/23vsF-16/18 or similar situations. 


Edited by Teknetinium
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Would removing ECM completely from every jet satisfy everyone? I mean it's modeled so simply compared to the real world thing anyway (and works in the same way in DCS) that eagle dynamics should just completely remove it from the game. 

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55 minutes ago, draconus said:

Yes, for current DCS implementation. But as soon as the ECM starts to be anything more than on/off SPJ or all-around noise jammer the modules should be modeled differently according to their capabilities and production time.

 

No ECM code in DCS is all the same basic. Double standards from ED, 15 seconds should be removed from FC3, So it matches there current full fidelity modules

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1 hour ago, Lurker said:

Would removing ECM completely from every jet satisfy everyone? I mean it's modeled so simply compared to the real world thing anyway (and works in the same way in DCS) that eagle dynamics should just completely remove it from the game. 

That's essentially what I do. In my missions I tell the AI to never use it and I don't use it myself. It's just not accurate enough to add to the simulation right now.

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1 hour ago, Teknetinium said:

Then some ask why so many feel ED has BIAS approach. 

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It must be possible to do something like allowing the first on / off to be instantaneous, but adding more lag the more frequently it's switched back & forth over a rolling timeframe (the limit of that being you can only turn it on once every 15 seconds and can only turn it off once every 15 seconds, but they'll be instant).

 

The exploit of adding a macro to have the ECM switch on and off rapidly & so denying both HOJ & STT lock while appearing to have ECM on constantly was enough of a PITA & caused enough grief online to get E.D. to implement the delay, but until the whole ECM modelling is upgraded a better solution should be found...

 

 

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15 hours ago, Weta43 said:

It must be possible to do something like allowing the first on / off to be instantaneous, but adding more lag the more frequently it's switched back & forth over a rolling timeframe (the limit of that being you can only turn it on once every 15 seconds and can only turn it off once every 15 seconds, but they'll be instant).

 

The exploit of adding a macro to have the ECM switch on and off rapidly & so denying both HOJ & STT lock while appearing to have ECM on constantly was enough of a PITA & caused enough grief online to get E.D. to implement the delay, but until the whole ECM modelling is upgraded a better solution should be found...

 

 

 

I dont want to blink it i want ED to remove full stop, The exploit BS has come from the DCS police community, FC3 should have 15 seconds removed due to F-18 F-16 (Soon) F-14 and jeff all having no warm up ECM of 15 seconds, Has nothing to do with exploits or blinking, The 15 seconds, For realism purposes as these guys want should be set the same ECM is basic across the board and should be removed OR You give F-18 F16 (Soon) F-14 and JF-17 15 seconds of warm up also.

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