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Can FM be improved for Anton?


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I'm not talking about graphs, but I am talking about simulating against other WW2 planes in DCS. I have to admit, Anton flies like an iron which can be seen very well in any case of dogfight even P-47 (A.I. Veteran) ... what I noticed is that the model is losing energy very quickly too fast, in my opinion. As a result, one of the best German fighters is not suitable for hunting. Of course, I know how the Germans flew and I fly the same way, but any twist causes almost everyone to catch up with me. Energy is lost too quickly here after boom and zoom also. A lot better FM has D-9, close to reallity. For A-8 should be near similar, but at a slightly slower speed, but it should have the same energy in the turns as Dora at the same speed, and it is not.

 

Is there a chance for Anton's more hunting behavior? I'm afraid that Mosquito will keep energy better and have a better turn rate ;).

 

So can FM be improved for Anton?


Edited by YoYo
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the A8 is a hunter, yes, a hunter of bombers. it's a much more heavily armoured version of the older A5 and A6 which were better dogfighters. in a one on one against a spitfire it will lose everytime, however if you fly in a group of 190 vs a group of spitfires it becomes much more even using the high speed to drag opponents while your wingmen shoot them down. if turn rate was king then the I-16 would be the best fighter. no need to upgrade 😀

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Fw-190 is a plane with a high wing loading. High wing loading is good for dive and climb energy management, but worse for energy retention during more than 1 g maneuvers.
If you apply simple flight dynamics physics you will see it very clearly.

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Sceptre said:

the A8 is a hunter, yes, a hunter of bombers. it's a much more heavily armoured version of the older A5 and A6 which were better dogfighters. in a one on one against a spitfire it will lose everytime, however if you fly in a group of 190 vs a group of spitfires it becomes much more even using the high speed to drag opponents while your wingmen shoot them down. if turn rate was king then the I-16 would be the best fighter. no need to upgrade 😀

 

No, this version isn't what you think I suppose. This A-8 was still good fighter for dogfight too not only for Combat boxes. Perhaps you think about more armored version A-8/R8 Sturmbock. The problem is that the model loses energy in flight too quickly, so even the heavy P-47 is able to outmaneuver it with ease (or maybe the volatile properties of P-47 are too good here and this is a mistake?). The A-8 in the IL-2 BoX series has a better balance compared to other planes and is a good competitor with proper flying technique. I don't feel it here. The parameters are ok (apart from a few things like temp. of oil, radiator, unlimeted 2700+ rpm ect), but as I wrote, I mean a very quick loss of energy during even gentle turns vs other DCS WW2 planes. I will try to show turning time between D-9 and A-8 in DCS and the speed loss level at the output at the same input.


Edited by YoYo

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11 hours ago, YoYo said:

Energy is lost too quickly here after boom and zoom also. A lot better FM has D-9, close to reallity. For A-8 should be near similar, but at a slightly slower speed, but it should have the same energy in the turns as Dora at the same speed, and it is not.

I am not sure that is reality, they have a number of different features that make them different aircraft in a number of ways. Otherwise, why make a D if its not better than the A 😉

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5 minutes ago, YoYo said:

 

No, this version isn't what you think. This A-8 was still good fighter for dogfight too. Perhaps you think about more armored version A-8/R8 Sturmbock. The problem is that the model loses energy in flight too quickly, so even the heavy P-47 is able to outmaneuver it with ease (or maybe the volatile properties of P-47 are too good here and this is a mistake?). The A-8 in the IL-2 BoX series has a better balance compared to other planes and is a good competitor with proper flying technique. You don't feel it here. The parameters are ok (apart from a few things like temp. of oil, radiator, unlimeted 2700+ rpm ect), but as I wrote, I mean a very quick loss of energy during even gentle turns vs other DCS WW2 planes. I will try to show turning time between D-9 and A-8 in DCS and the speed loss level at the output at the same input.

The A8 realy suffer from it's take off Weight, its heavyer then D9 with less Power. The Handling suffers compare to earlier Anton Versions, the late A4 for example have the same Horsepower then our A8 +600kg additional Takeoff Weight. (Aux Fuel Tank, Armor). Currently the Plane with the highest Wingload in DCS, the P-47 have less Wingload (support slow climbs and slow Turnfights) that what matters. And so far i remember IL-2 uses for Clmax 1.56 without Flaps (your max Lift Coefficient) what is out of from the Fairy Tale hours, dissicused allready alot here.

Take callculater and compare the Takeoff weights and the Wingload between P-47 and Fw-190, but less Wingload in the Fw-190 you will outurn him, but thats not a usual Combat Scenario. Keep the Speed high above 300kmh dont make harsh high AOA Turns with alot of G.

Would preffer also A8 without outboad Wingmounted 20mm cannons to reduce the WIngload, often done by Front Units but this will affect the FM Rollrate think would be again rewritten Flight Model, so not gone happen.

 

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, NineLine said:

I am not sure that is reality, they have a number of different features that make them different aircraft in a number of ways. Otherwise, why make a D if its not better than the A 😉

 

For sure it was better (with near the same weight) but I write about comparable flight conditions, engine settings in the same environment. The FW solid hasn't changed much so the properties shouldn't be that different (I feel like 1/3 worse in Anton which is hard to imagine ). It is a long way and the FW-190 has always been considered a poor plane in simulators. At the beginning, if someone uses the IL-2 BoX, it was similar, but over a year ago the flight characteristics of the FW series were significantly improved (at players' requests and upon receipt of new historical sources) there and now you can feel that it is a fighter, of course not suitable for shooting with the Spitfire IX, but it is a good opponent. It's suicide here :). I have been flying simulators for over 20 years and know different types of machines pretty well. I have no objections but I am more concerned with balancing the characteristics of other planes. I think the characteristics are ok here, but the main issue for me in this case of A-8 is losing energy too quickly camapred WW2 planes in DCS (like P-47 for example or D-9) as if the plane had too much front drag (+15-20% more for example).


Edited by YoYo
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The A8 was still a fighter, without the rack, wing canon (like earlier anton with fighter purpose), without wing canon you save 180 kg + less drag, the only big differences with earlier anton is the MG131, some radio equipement and the auxialiry tank in rear fuselage, armor for standard aircraft seems to be the same.

 

I think it loses his energy a bit too fast, I still habe doubt about the top speed, but it's another subject

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  • 2 weeks later...

I only play in SP and I know that AI is being improved but the A8 is a death trap no matter which allied planes I try to take on. I could drop down from out of space (at least the last time I checked, maybe it's been improved now?) and attempt a boom and zoom on an I-16 and they would still catch me. I know AI is a complicated thing but surely this can be altered somehow as there is just no way those planes should be catching something with about 10 times their energy! It effectively makes flying the Anton SP not an option for me because unless I get them on my first run I'm toast. The 109 however works okay for boom and zoom in SP but the 2 FW's...

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