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Mi-24P project manager live stream


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2 minutes ago, Schmidtfire said:

That is why I expect that the S-24 rockets will be a popular option.  Warhead is large enough to do some real damage. But the problem is still to engage without getting hit. DCS vehicle AI has very good reaction times and will fire everything from 7.62mm to guided missiles on the approaching helicopter. Sneaking around like the Ka-50 will not be so viable as the Mi-24P is larger, doesent hover as good and the short missile range will make those very dangerous to employ at a stand still.

 

 

 

 

 

High speed strafing runs (basically the best thing that the Mi-24P is good at) will be really hard against DCS AI ground assets that have the ability to fire back. AI in DCS World is generally very dumb, but the one thing they are good at is shooting straight and they are completely aware of everything in their detection range. Not sure how this will work with the Mi24P, it does seem that without reworking some of the ground AI it will be really difficult to employ this helicopter against anything but unarmed targets. 

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I think many of you are overstating that weird concept of "fitting into DCS environment".

 

UH-1 and Mi-8 have been in DCS for a lot longer, and have been thriving in right hands and right kinds of missions. They have weaker gunnery firepower, and when it comes to rockets, they may have some bite, but have a lot less in the way of sighting systems and flight stability for delivering them with. When it comes to missiles, yeah, Shturms are going to be shorter ranged and slower than Vikhrs. But they are still decently fast, has ok range. Atakas when they come, should be oly slightly behind Vikhr. We have the SA-342M Gazelle with 4 missiles that are way slower and with considerably shorter range than Shturms, and in right hands and right scenarios it can work fine.

 

Mi-24 has better capabilities than these, as well as more survivability, and speed. Also unlike what many people seem to think, I believe that it is not like we won't be able to hover behind a hill and shoot missiles at all.

 

Now, some ground objects that can shoot back are indeed worse than others. BMP-2 is often a death cannon, Gepard is very dangerous, and 25mm equipped vehicles can be scary too. But even up to Shilkas, I can do ok strafing or rockets runs in even UH-1, Mi-8, and sometimes Gazelle L. And I wouldn't even call myself a mediocre DCS helo pilot, pretty sure I'm slightly below even that.

 

Damage model issues of DCS is well established reality, which I voiced myself many time throughout years. But rockets and cannons with HE shells do kill infantry just fine in my experience. Vehilces are harder, but they CAN be defeated.

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In this months before the release we really should get an improvement in rocket damage and  infantry/vehicle behaviour. Something simulating supression, like not being able to fire back for a while or something like that.

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3 hours ago, Stratos said:

In this months before the release we really should get an improvement in rocket damage and  infantry/vehicle behaviour. Something simulating supression, like not being able to fire back for a while or something like that.

 

I would begin with more realistic restrictions on AI spotting, reaction, precision, etc.

 

I remember those BMP-2s in the A-10A instant mission were more precise and deadlier than Shilkas and would shred the A-10s to pieces, even though they're actually engaged in a ground battle at the same time and/or advancing. Though, I would be pleasantly surprised if this has been changed in the meantime.


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How DCS as an environment will accommodate the Hind is also one of my biggest concerns.

 

1. Ground AI spotting and how the concept of surprise, ambush or distraction isn't existent, critical elements of attack helicopter operations.

 

2. Ground AI target acquisition speed and accuracy when engaging aircraft, especially with main guns, auto-cannons and co-axial guns. I fully support that stationary helicopters are eventually engaged with all available weapons (after a certain time, because acquiring aircraft from within vehicles is difficult), but there should be more strict limitations when engaging moving aircraft without dedicated anti-air sights. Aiming at moving aircraft with sufficient lead would often put the target outside the field of view of a fixed tank sight such as installed in the BMP-2 for example.

 

3. No suppression mechanic for ground AI.

 

4. Lack of type variety and behaviour fidelity of AI infantry, one of the primary mission targets for the Hind (the famous rocket attacks are aimed mostly at infantry).

 

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15 minutes ago, Lucas_From_Hell said:

The very first DCS module was an attack helicopter and it's been working just fine 13 years after its release.

 

Well that is at least debatable. I owned the original Black Shark (pre-DCS) and didn't buy it again for DCS simply because it was unsatisfactorily to me. The wining tactic has always been parking at stand-off and shoot things at distance like fish in a barrel. As a Cold War enthusiast I have zero interest in this. My big fear is that this will also be the way the Apache will be used in DCS. All those detailed system simulations mean nothing to me if there is no interesting tactical application and  hands-on flying.

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30 minutes ago, MBot said:

 

Well that is at least debatable. I owned the original Black Shark (pre-DCS) and didn't buy it again for DCS simply because it was unsatisfactorily to me. The wining tactic has always been parking at stand-off and shoot things at distance like fish in a barrel. As a Cold War enthusiast I have zero interest in this. My big fear is that this will also be the way the Apache will be used in DCS. All those detailed system simulations mean nothing to me if there is no interesting tactical application and  hands-on flying.

I agree with you, we really need better weapon and AI representation, no more Sniper APC's please.

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54 minutes ago, MBot said:

The wining tactic has always been parking at stand-off and shoot things at distance like fish in a barrel. My big fear is that this will also be the way the Apache will be used in DCS. 

 

While I agree with your sentiment in general, isn't this exactly how a Longbow Apache is intended to be used? 🙂

 

Though, as a Cold War enthusiast myself, I'd have preferred the AH-64A, I have to admit that the Longbow one is a more flexible choice in general.


Edited by Dudikoff

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2 hours ago, Morrov said:

Huey and Mi-8 are doing fine as well, we'll be able to adopt the Mi-24 too.


For sling loading and transport operations? Yes. But for attack missions and CAS?
I'd say it is quite hard against any type of vehicle that shoots back...  and against infantry we are facing a different
issue without any real spash damage, AI fear (running for cover etc.) The Hind will face the same type of issues and two BTR-80's will turn
the helicopter into swiss cheese when making a strafing pass.

The Mi-24P will still be a fine module, I have no doubt about that. But it won't shine in the attack role unless the missions are carefully tailored around it.       

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2 hours ago, MBot said:

The wining tactic has always been parking at stand-off and shoot things at distance like fish in a barrel.

While that's the go-to for most people, I've found it to be suicide most of the times as it often leaves you in range of ATGMs, AAA, IR SAMs and tank guns. I've found the standard formula of running in fast, popping a shot then breaking away much more survivable and exciting. The Mi-24 will be the same in that regard.

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9 hours ago, Lucas_From_Hell said:

While that's the go-to for most people, I've found it to be suicide most of the times as it often leaves you in range of ATGMs, AAA, IR SAMs and tank guns. I've found the standard formula of running in fast, popping a shot then breaking away much more survivable and exciting. The Mi-24 will be the same in that regard.

 

Yeah that's how I imagine it will go as well. First stand-off and fire off your ATMs at the most threatening or armored targets, then very fast passes at single targets firing off just a few shots and breaking off for another run in. Not impossible to do, just difficult in a single ship. I imagine it will be easier with multiple Mi24s working in tandem, if that ever becomes a thing online 🙂


Edited by Lurker

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9 hours ago, Lucas_From_Hell said:

While that's the go-to for most people, I've found it to be suicide most of the times as it often leaves you in range of ATGMs, AAA, IR SAMs and tank guns. I've found the standard formula of running in fast, popping a shot then breaking away much more survivable and exciting. The Mi-24 will be the same in that regard.

I found that its a very good tactic for the Ka-50 and actually also the reason that I dont enjoy flying it as much. It is kind of boring to just hover and kill 12 vehicles from standoff range with vikhrs. It is very effective (in DCS) but not fun for me. Of course nobody forces me to use that tactic but since it works best for me, I do it kind of involuntarily :D.

 

I really like the Mi-8 because I automatically do the sorts of tactics that you can see from the Hind in real life.

 

With the upcoming Mi-24p it is cool to also have the ability to destroy some high threat targets with precision. But since the hind does not like to hover I imagine that these ATGM launches will also happen on the move and be more fun than vikhr launches.

Furthermore, the Hind is more stable when doing a rocket run and also has some (even if rudimentary) CCIP calculation. The lack of CCIP is one thing I find annoying sometimes with the Mi-8

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12 hours ago, MBot said:

 

Well that is at least debatable. I owned the original Black Shark (pre-DCS) and didn't buy it again for DCS simply because it was unsatisfactorily to me. The wining tactic has always been parking at stand-off and shoot things at distance like fish in a barrel. As a Cold War enthusiast I have zero interest in this. My big fear is that this will also be the way the Apache will be used in DCS. All those detailed system simulations mean nothing to me if there is no interesting tactical application and  hands-on flying.

 

You have been able to do that in DCS because there is nothing ready where ground units could hide.

 

The DCS World is based to Lock On and it was based to Flanker. There is severe legacy code and legacy models and units it has been dragging behind it.

First major upgrades really was the NTTR map that was meant to be free for A-10C owners (some early purchasers got it so as promised) and it was delayed years because it was not just a new map, but it came with the EDGE (ED Graphics Engine). It truly changed the lighting system.

 

But still everything was based to LoMac aircrafts (FC3) as relationship between ground and air units. The KA-50 is not really designed for it.

The ground units are just 3D models for training purposes and all trees were nothing more than visual block for pilots to see that there were trees.

 

With KA-50 you had all units shooting at you from max ranges, you could do same. Trees didn't block anything else than your capability as player to see something.

 

Then came the 2.0 Alpha that brought with the NTTR the collision to some trees. And later 1.5 Beta did add it to Caucasus with the major overhaul that became 2.5.

 

Only since then the helicopters has started to receive more effective means to get protection as trees actually had collision model, and AI couldn't see through them.

 

But we are still in the same situation, even with the some mist/dust settings for low visibility etc, the ground units has nowhere where to hide than behind the trees or behind buildings.

 

There are no other realistic covers and concealment capabilities like small ditches and prepared positions, camouflage nets and materials etc that would help ground units to effectively hide and have cover.

 

That would force helicopter pilots to get close, same way as any other ground unit and as well air units.

And suddenly all would find themselves inside the Anti-Air ranges as engagement would happen much closer than maximum ranges.

 

Then there is still missing (but coming) element where AI would get some kind surviving senses so they wouldn't be stupid and sit at open as nothing. If someone commands you to attack to enemy defense position, you are not going to charge there without preparation or cover. The simple basic artillery strikes first to soften the defenses, the long period cat and mouse games to keep engagement going while staying in cover and waiting the proper moment when attack can be made, and then it is executed properly.

 

Such combat would turn helicopters requiring to use more their speed and concealment than just "I have standoff" as there is no such a thing against prepared enemy. You are forced to go inside defensive forces engament ranges.

 

And that is not really possible in DCS as it is so often just made such that people get to do that standoff thing. While against a proper human player that is denied.

 

So you would end to situation where Mi-24 is great, fast and heavy attack at close range and away.

 

If we would get better terrain engine that supports terrain changes so we can prepare positions for vehicles, camouflage them rendering almost invisible for FLIR and EO targeting, lots of ground clutter that helps to conceal even more against air units, capability to have thousands of infantries with hundreds of vehicles etc. It would turn military combat heavily different. But it still requires that AI would operate more like militaries does.

And it means that no one would need to micromanage each units but commands are issued and units follow them based their advanced logic for combat and surviving.

 

It means so simple things like anyone spotting a helicopter issues warning, that eventually gets through chain of command via communication network and all units react to that warning properly. It is not imminent but can take minutes. Units start self-defensive preparations like MANPADS are prepared, HMG positions set and so on. Vehicles driven to cover and be ready to come out to support and withdraw immediately after firing etc.

 

It would be painful and almost impossible operate alone against such an enemy.

 

Now all mission designing for such requires too much scripting and even then impossible. Setting missions as realistic as possible means lot of time is spent just to get even units in such scenarios it would make sense as it really would require human element to command all as AI units are with IQ less than a shoe size.

 

That is what makes the helicopters in DCS less useful and fun as you can't really utilize them in proper scenarios and manner. Units spot you too easily even from hiding, the HMG roof gunners are like snipers or complete idiots (shoot behind you where you were like 5 seconds ago).

 

Weapons doesn't have effect on ground units, like rockets and HMG etc. So no suppressive effects that would allow you to fly closer etc.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Kerberos said:

But since the hind does not like to hover I imagine that these ATGM launches will also happen on the move and be more fun than vikhr launches.

 

The Hind does hover without problems in normal conditions. But as Afghanistan did show, operating from a high temperature at high altitudes (3000-4500 meters) with heavier payload (near maximum take-off weight) required to come up with rolling take-off techniques.

 

That same challenge is on other conventional helicopters but co-axial design allows that to be done at higher altitude like what KA-50/52
does.

 

But someone flying Mi-24 like they would fly a Lynx, OH-58 or a Bo-105.... Nope. Not really as it is so huge.  nothing really stops to do that. For it size it is very agile one. So you can do all slide and pop-up attacks from hover. That fixed cannon just makes it less useful as rotating turret with 12.7 mm would have been better for that, like pop-up and engage the marching convoy by destroying few vehicles and then disappear.

 

But Mi-24 is not a helicopter that would sneak on someone.

 

 

 

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49 minutes ago, Fri13 said:

 

The Hind does hover without problems in normal conditions. But as Afghanistan did show, operating from a high temperature at high altitudes (3000-4500 meters) with heavier payload (near maximum take-off weight) required to come up with rolling take-off techniques.

 

 

yes, the Hind can definitely hover but not as good as a Mi-8 or Ka-50. The Mi-8s in Afghanistan could hover to drop troops in the mountains but a Mi-24p with a full weapons load could not even take off in a hover at ground level there.

At sea level it can probably hover with a full weapons load but that would be stressing the turbines a lot when done too long. thats why I only said "it doesn't like to hover" instead of "it cannot hover"

I was not trying to spread the conspiracy theory that the Hind cannot hover 😄

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9 hours ago, Apok said:

While it can hover and fire missiles(there are videos of that), there seems to be limitation on firing the gun. To use gun speed must not be below 70km/h iirc. Not sure if this is recomendation or limiting factor.

 

If you're in a stable hover, how would you be able to aim the gun? To aim the gun, you need to point the helicopter. Pointing the helicopter will immediately cause you to exit the hover. (Unless the target happens to be at the exact spot where your rounds will fall from that stable hover) 

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On 1/22/2021 at 2:35 PM, Apok said:

I didn't really imply hover shooting was something needed. Just pointing out the limitation.

 

 

I don't think the guns would simply stop working because you're in the hover. There is no real logical reason for that to be the case. It's probably a recommendation related to stability and accuracy. Im guessing that below 70kph the accuracy of the guns would probably be poor. 


Edited by Lurker

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Would say shooting in hover was only impractical, 30 mm  with his Barrel Lenght is a heavty Caliber and mounted on the Side of the Fuselage. Would assume in hover there is not enough directional Stability to fire gun without the complete Heli turns sideways from the Blast. 

 

 

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