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Just now, WinterH said:

I've meant Redeye and SA-7 themselves with older manpads, as we don't have them in DCS right now. I do think they should be added into DCS, and if they were in there would be more of an argument for including Lipa. As for Lipa vs SA-9, yeah I'm curious as well, perhaps it would work against it.

 

Yeah, I mean the SA-9 is essentially just as old, and in DCS hasn't got much in the way of countermeasure resistance.

 

Just now, WinterH said:

Did Ataka entered service in 80s?

 

Yes, though I was mistaken, it entered service in the mid-80s, but on the 9P149 ATGM vehicle. It looks like the Mi-24 was early 90s, at least according to the Russian wiki, and this airwar.ru.

 

I imagine that by the 90s IR SAM systems had superseded the capabilities of Lipa.

 

I will say however, that the difference between a mid-70s Mi-24P and an early 90s one is basically nothing AFAIK apart from 9M120 compatibility (I'm not sure what modernisation efforts or upgrades had to be made to facilitate the missile).

 

And at least on early access the Mi-24P will be as it appeared in it's Soviet state (just without the IR jammer).

 

One thing that's interesting me about the 9M120, is will we see it in multiple variants, besides the regular tandem-HEAT? the 9M120F has a thermobaric warhead (though might not be useful without appropriate weapon effects (I don't mean graphical), or damage modelling), but one variant I'm interested in is the 9M220O which has a proximity fuse and an expanding rod warhead, suitable for engaging helicopters. The Vikhr system we have the Ka-50 is capable of the same thing AFAIK.

 

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Dear All,   Join the stream with ED Mi-24P project manager Alex Podvoisky.   You'll get the answers about main and hot questions about the project.    

Timestamps for those who don't speak Russian:   1:23:46 - Showing external model 1:25:33 - Showing various elements of the pilot and copilot cockpits 1:46:38 - Hind takes flight

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4 hours ago, manintan2016 said:

Released Q2? Major disappointment. I'm bummed out. Was hoping and saving money for sometime before summer. Might have to look at Kiowa.

 

 

Meh, I'd rather wait and have something complete and working, than rush it out and it be in limbo for ages. After the problems with EA and what happened when 2.5.6 first hit, I can't blame ED for maybe slowing down a bit more.

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10.01.2021 в 16:26, WinterH сказал:

As for Lipa vs SA-9, yeah I'm curious as well, perhaps it would work against it.

Why not, given that the Strela-1 and Strela-2 missiles have fundamentally similar homing heads (single-band IR homing heads with amplitude phase modulation of the target signature).

29.07.2020 в 23:25, S.E.Bulba сказал:

Against any 1st generation missiles with an amplitude-phase modulated IR homing.

IIRC, now in the DCS World there are only a couple or three missiles of this type – this is the aforementioned Strela-1, as well as the K-13A and R-60(M) AAMs. If you want to have a Lipa in the DCS: Mi-24P, then you must also be prepared for the fact that your helicopter will carry a device not only practically useless against more modern missiles using frequency or pulse time modulations of the target signature, but besides, it is also an additional source of heat-seeking guidance for them, exceeding the aircraft's own signature several times.

 

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Почему бы и нет, учитывая то, что ракеты «Стрела-1» и «Стрела-2» имеют принципиально-аналогичные ГСН (однодиапозонные тепловые ГСН с амплитудно-фазовой модуляцией сигнатуры цели).

29.07.2020 в 23:25, S.E.Bulba сказал:
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Против любых ракет 1-го поколения, имеющих ИКГСН с амплитудно-фазовой модуляцией.

ЕМНИП, сейчас в DCS World имеется только пара-тройка ракет данного типа – это вышеупомянутая «Стрела-1», а также УРВВ К-13А и Р-60(М). Если вы хотите иметь «Липу» в DCS: Ми-24П, то вы должны также быть готовыми к тому, что ваш вертолёт будет носить на себе устройство не только практически бесполезное против более современных ракет, использующих частотную или время-импульсную модуляции сигнатуры цели, но к тому же ещё и являющимся для них дополнительным источником теплового наведения, превышающим собственную сигнатуру ЛА в несколько раз.

 


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21 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

 

Yeah, I mean the SA-9 is essentially just as old, and in DCS hasn't got much in the way of countermeasure resistance.

 

 

Yes, though I was mistaken, it entered service in the mid-80s, but on the 9P149 ATGM vehicle. It looks like the Mi-24 was early 90s, at least according to the Russian wiki, and this airwar.ru.

 

I imagine that by the 90s IR SAM systems had superseded the capabilities of Lipa.

 

I will say however, that the difference between a mid-70s Mi-24P and an early 90s one is basically nothing AFAIK apart from 9M120 compatibility (I'm not sure what modernisation efforts or upgrades had to be made to facilitate the missile).

 

And at least on early access the Mi-24P will be as it appeared in it's Soviet state (just without the IR jammer).

 

One thing that's interesting me about the 9M120, is will we see it in multiple variants, besides the regular tandem-HEAT? the 9M120F has a thermobaric warhead (though might not be useful without appropriate weapon effects (I don't mean graphical), or damage modelling), but one variant I'm interested in is the 9M220O which has a proximity fuse and an expanding rod warhead, suitable for engaging helicopters. The Vikhr system we have the Ka-50 is capable of the same thing AFAIK.

 

The Missiles as you mentioned and Engine's will be probably also Klimov TW3-117 VM, (High-alt Modernized) compare to the Soviet used the V Version in the 80s.

This are that indicates a early Russian Version, but even 90s there are so many possible Scenarios where the LIPA are still Thing, think ED can not convince me every non Military Organisation that was Fighting for example in Caucasus/chechnya was able to get there Hands on brand new IGLA's Manpads. That time Russian millitary was not able self to afford such Things. 

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On 1/9/2021 at 2:40 PM, Northstar98 said:

 

All credit should go to @Minsky I just quoted and linked it.

 

 

Hmmm, I guess the main problem would be how to get a player to designate a target for the AI.

 

 

 

Well according to the (translated) interview the AI co-pilot calls out targets he sees to the player. It doesn't mention anything about how the pilot designates which targets the AI will then choose, but it should be possible just like it is with the F14. Hopefully they make this process simple and intuitive, and they already mentioned they will use a radial menu style so it shouldn't be too difficult. Hopefully this works well, as the co-pilot needs to make constant adjustment on the periscope as the helicopter moves, otherwise the AI co-pilot would not be of much in combat. 

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1 hour ago, MAD-MM said:

The Missiles as you mentioned and Engine's will be probably also Klimov TW3-117 VM, (High-alt Modernized) compare to the Soviet used the V Version in the 80s.

This are that indicates a early Russian Version

 

Fair enough. Even so it seems like a wasted opportunity to develop an Afghanistan map and not have the 80s one, oh well, just by opinion. Approximating an 80s one will probably be super easy, and difficult to discern. I'm not sure what the VM modification means in practice, in DCS,  compared to the M.

 

1 hour ago, MAD-MM said:

but even 90s there are so many possible Scenarios where the LIPA are still Thing, think ED can not convince me every non Military Organisation that was Fighting for example in Caucasus/chechnya was able to get there Hands on brand new IGLA's Manpads. That time Russian millitary was not able self to afford such Things. 

 

Same, but oh well, never mind.

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Regarding the Lipa system (L166V1AE), I was wondering how it works. Found an interesting article mentioning the system: https://www.aviationtoday.com/2012/02/01/countering-manpads/

 

If I understand correctly, Lipa emits a specific IR signature (IR flux) that basically jams the homing sensors of early IR missiles. These sensors look for a specific IR signature/modulation and the signature emited by the Lipa nullifies the signature created by the aircraft. Thus the IR missile sees "nothing". However, more modern missiles, as mentioned by others as well, not only "see through" this, the Lipa system actually would amplify the aircraft's IR signature an thus make it FAR easier to home in on. In other words, pure suicide to turn Lipa on in our current DCS environment.

 

I don't know if what I wrote above is entirely correct, I think guys like S.E.Bulba can confirm whether I'm right or wrong 🙂


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1 час назад, MAD-MM сказал:

… Engine's will be probably also Klimov TW3-117 VM, (High-alt Modernized) compare to the Soviet used the V Version in the 80s…

08.10.2020 в 00:04, PilotMi8 сказал:

ТВ3-117ВМА

JSC "Klimov" - TV3-117.

 

10 минут назад, Koekemoeroetoe сказал:

… I don't know if what I wrote above is entirely correct, I think guys like S.E.Bulba can confirm whether I'm right or wrong 🙂

:yes:

Sorry, I don't speak English, so I use Google Translate.

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12 hours ago, S.E.Bulba said:

Why not, given that the Strela-1 and Strela-2 missiles have fundamentally similar homing heads (single-band IR homing heads with amplitude phase modulation of the target signature).

IIRC, now in the DCS World there are only a couple or three missiles of this type – this is the aforementioned Strela-1, as well as the R-60(M). If you want to have a Lipa in the DCS: Mi-24P, then you must also be prepared for the fact that your helicopter will carry a device not only practically useless against more modern missiles using frequency or pulse time modulations of the target signature, but besides, it is also an additional source of heat-seeking guidance for them, exceeding the aircraft's own signature several times.

 

 

OK, but the number of these older IR missiles will increase with time (with e.g. perhaps some equivalent Western A2A missiles of the first or second generation).

 

The benefits of adding this system are not only linked to the Mi-24P in the game, but for the wider game itself as it would require some changes in the base game to differentiate between different types of IR seekers which leads to a more detailed simulation overall.

 

BTW, the Ukrainians seem to have developed a more modern variant of it which covers the more modern IR seekers supposedly.

 

https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Ukraine+modernizing+Mi-24+self-protection+systems.-a0131812535


Edited by Dudikoff

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13 минут назад, Dudikoff сказал:

… BTW, the Ukrainians seem to have developed a more modern variant of it which covers the more modern IR seekers supposedly.

 

https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Ukraine+modernizing+Mi-24+self-protection+systems.-a0131812535

13.09.2020 в 16:03, PilotMi8 сказал:

не ломайте копья. Пока что ничего из "экзотических" систем обороны в модуль вставлять не будем. Сначала сделать надо намеченный вариант Ми-24П. А потом время покажет. Дожить надо.

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Well, it's hopefully something for the 'Mi-24P Hind 2' module then. 🙂

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35 minutes ago, Dudikoff said:

OK, but the number of these older IR missiles will increase with time (with e.g. perhaps some equivalent Western A2A missiles of the first or second generation)

We will have that, but that doesn't touch the Mi-24 too much. The Mi-24P was introduced in the 1980s. By then most client states of the US and the Soviet Union already employed the AIM-9P and R-60, while IR SAMs were being replaced by the Igla and Stinger.

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20 hours ago, Lucas_From_Hell said:

We will have that, but that doesn't touch the Mi-24 too much. The Mi-24P was introduced in the 1980s. By then most client states of the US and the Soviet Union already employed the AIM-9P and R-60, while IR SAMs were being replaced by the Igla and Stinger.

 

Yes, apparently I've forgotten that everyone got the newest systems instantly and we can only fly the Mi-24P in combat within scenarios where it actually fought in real life.

 

Following the same logic, since there's no Afghanistan map and the list of Mi-35P operators is pretty limited, ED needn't have bothered, I guess.


Edited by Dudikoff

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11.01.2021 в 19:22, Lucas_From_Hell сказал:

The Mi-24P was introduced in the 1980s. By then most client states of the US and the Soviet Union already employed the AIM-9P and R-60, while IR SAMs were being replaced by the Igla and Stinger.

The R-60 is a rather old missile, which was passing into service in 1973, and had an IR seeker almost identical to the IR seeker of the Strela-1 missile. In 1982, the upgraded R-60M was pass into service. The OGS-75T IR seeker of the R-60M missile differed from the OGS-60TI IR seeker of the R-60 missile only by an increased target detection angle and the addition of thermoelectric cooling of the photodetector. The R-60 series missiles were produced until 1991.


In 1984, for the subsequent replacement of the R-60 series missiles, the more modern R-73 RMD-1 missile was passed into service, which had an IR seeker with pulse time modulation of the target signature. Mass production of the R-73 RMD-1 missiles began in 1987.

 

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Р-60 – это довольно старая ракета, принятая на вооружение в 1973 году, и имевшая ИКГСН практически аналогичную ИКГСН ракеты «Стрела-1». В 1982 году была принята на вооружение модернизированная Р-60М. ИКГСН ОГС-75Т ракеты Р-60М отличалась от ИКГСН ОГС-60ТИ ракеты Р-60 лишь увеличенным углом целеуказания и добавлением термоэлектрического охлаждения фотоприёмника. Ракеты серии Р-60 производились до 1991 года.

 

В 1984 году для последующей замены ракет серии Р-60 была принята на вооружение более современная ракета Р-73 РМД-1, имевшая ИКГСН с время-импульсной модуляцией сигнатуры цели. Массовое производство ракет Р-73 РМД-1 началось в 1987 году.

 


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The R-60 is so light though... it makes it rather hard to replace entirely! I can see why some remained in use.

 

I also understand the idea of always carrying at least a pair of Shturm per hardpoint... given that it is usually good to have at least four rounds available I can see why it doesn't matter as much. It would definitely be worth the added programming effort to provide options to carry two or four Vikhr per hardpoint on the Su-25T and Ka-50 though... one really doesn't need the weight and drag of 12-16 missiles in a lot of situations! So I hope they consider that.

 

The interview also didn't discuss bombs... which I'm curious about (as we've discussed earlier - the 10xFAB-100 bomb-load from Afghanistan would be interesting - a helicopter with the bomb load of a WWII medium bomber).

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Unless its an error in translation, I find the fact that there will NO training missions or training campaign included AT ALL quite disappointing for a hifi-module that will no doubt be sold for usual price tag.

Yea , official and/or user made videos are nice to have, but really its sounds like a chap excuse to skip the work of doing decent training missions to me, which I think almost every other full module offers in one form or another and usually add to the immersion.

 

hope they rethink their position on this.

 

kind regards,

 

 Snappy 

 

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Lipa was effective against a few particular IR missiles. All modern missiles cannot be scared by Lipa. So if we make Lipa, it will have no threats in DCS. It makes no sense to model and program the whole system if there's nothing to jam by it. And even if we make such missiles for DCS, nobody in his sane mind will use them. So, for now, it's not rational to spend our time and resources modelling all this.

 

That sounds a little disappointing, as I think the SA-7 is a huge hole in DCS' lineup of air defense systems. For example, between 1970 and 1983, the Soviet Union exported 15'000 (!) SA-7/Strela-2 missiles to Syria. Just let that number sink in for a moment... ED's perception that no one would want to use not-the-latest weapons for historical scenarios offers some insight into their thinking.

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2 hours ago, MBot said:

 

That sounds a little disappointing, as I think the SA-7 is a huge hole in DCS' lineup of air defense systems. For example, between 1970 and 1983, the Soviet Union exported 15'000 (!) SA-7/Strela-2 missiles to Syria. Just let that number sink in for a moment... ED's perception that no one would want to use not-the-latest weapons for historical scenarios offers some insight into their thinking.

 

Which is some pretty backwards, short-sighted thinking IMO (sorry for my harshness), given that the vast majority of assets (that aren't BLUFOR modules) are mid-to-late Cold War.

 

The only free map in DCS at the moment is a 1980s era map AFAIK.

 

Cold War assets are probably going to be way more feasible than modern ones, especially if we want contemporary aircraft. Even with the MiG-29 9.12, there's still a 20 year gap between it and the F-16CM and F/A-18C; the same gap between a late WWII era warbird and an F-4 Phantom II; the same age gap between the Tiger 1 and an M60A1, I don't think I need to continue. 

 

The latest REDFOR is going to get is probably the 80s, at least from ED (both the MiG-29 9.12 and Mi-24P are 80s aircraft), sure we're getting the AT-9 further down the line, but that's basically the only practical thing that makes it newer than it's initial production in the Cold War (apart from engines), and only puts it into the early 90s. 

 

Going down this logic, what's the point of the SA-2 when we've got an SA-10? What's the point of the SA-6 when we have the SA-11? What's the point of the ZSU-23-4 when we've got the SA-19? And what's the point of that going to be when we get the SA-22?

 

What about the F-5E-3, F-86F, MiG-15bis, MiG-21bis, A-10A, Su-25 and MiG-29 9.12? As well as every single WWII asset, all of those are surpassed by newer, more capable aircraft, even if simplified.


Edited by Northstar98
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1 hour ago, Northstar98 said:

The only free map in DCS at the moment is a 1980s era map AFAIK.

 

  Caucasus is 2008. It's the Russo-Georgian War in 2008. Virtually every campaign on that map, particularly for FC3 and the Su-25T is set in that war. Thus, the overall DCS World ''timeframe'' is 2008+, except for the Korean planes and WWII. 3rd parties are doing whatever they want more or less.

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7 часов назад, Snappy сказал:

Unless its an error in translation, I find the fact that there will NO training missions or training campaign included AT ALL quite disappointing for a hifi-module that will no doubt be sold for usual price tag…

@PilotMi8 said (0:41:15, 0:59:52) that they are not planning to do a tutorial campaign, but may release a combat campaign for a single-player. He also said that they will probably do some video tutorials… besides, he suggested that many YouTube bloggers would shoot similar video tutorials.

 

10 часов назад, Avimimus сказал:

… The interview also didn't discuss bombs... which I'm curious about…

The screenshots of the pilot's and operator's cockpits have controls for the use of bomb weapons (aerial bombs and KMGUs). In addition, @PilotMi8 previously indicated that the DCS: Mi-24P will have the ability to use bomb weapons (АБ).

 

10 часов назад, Avimimus сказал:

… (as we've discussed earlier - the 10xFAB-100 bomb-load from Afghanistan would be interesting - a helicopter with the bomb load of a WWII medium bomber).

As for such 'exotic', IMHO, then probably it will not be… as probably the BST developers will use the standard bomb weapons available in the DCS World. 🙂

 

59 минут назад, zhukov032186 сказал:

Caucasus is 2008…

The ED released the DCS: Caucasus Map in 2008, but it did it based on real topographic maps from the 1980s.
 

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7 часов назад, Snappy сказал:

Unless its an error in translation, I find the fact that there will NO training missions or training campaign included AT ALL quite disappointing for a hifi-module that will no doubt be sold for usual price tag…

@PilotMi8 сказал (0:41:15, 0:59:52), что они не планируют делать обучающую кампанию, но возможно выпустят боевую кампанию для синглплеера. Также он сказал, что вероятно некоторые видеокурсы они всё-таки сделают… кроме того он предположил, что аналогичные видеокурсы снимут многие YouTube-блогеры.

 

10 часов назад, Avimimus сказал:

… The interview also didn't discuss bombs... which I'm curious about…

На скриншотах кабин пилота и оператора имеются органы управления для применения бомбового вооружения (авиабомб и КМГУ). Кроме того @PilotMi8 ранее указывал на то, что в DCS: Ми-24П будет возможность применения бомбового вооружения (АБ).

 

10 часов назад, Avimimus сказал:

… (as we've discussed earlier - the 10xFAB-100 bomb-load from Afghanistan would be interesting - a helicopter with the bomb load of a WWII medium bomber).

Что же касается подобной «экзотики», ИМХО, то наверное её не будет… т.к. вероятно разработчики BST будут использовать стандартное бомбовое вооружение, имеющееся в DCS World. 🙂

 

59 минут назад, zhukov032186 сказал:

Unless its an error in translation, I find the fact that there will NO training missions or training campaign included AT ALL quite disappointing for a hifi-module that will no doubt be sold for usual price tag…

ED выпустили DCS: Кавказ в 2008 году, однако делали они её на основе реальных топографических карт 1980-х годов.

 


Edited by S.E.Bulba
UPD.

Sorry, I don't speak English, so I use Google Translate.

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