Huey gunners should not have to own the module

[Lurker]

There is no profit in it, they will not do it. It is extra manhours, development and network coding that they could spend on something that will actually bring them a return on their investment. Before you crucify me, I am aware of the shortsightedness of this position, getting someone to sit fly as a passenger\gunner might actually incentivize them into buying the module, but it has been 7 years, let me repeat that 7 YEARS since the Huey has been released and we've only recently gotten multicrew in. Most of the people who are into helicopters in DCS have the Huey, and for the small numbers that might, maybe buy it if they try the door-gunner position first or whatever, it's simply not worth it. It makes absolutely no financial sense and indeed it would incur a cost elsewhere both in $ and manhours. 

Eagle Dynamics has even pulled the plug on the training missions for the Mi-24 (yes the module won't be getting any training missions) and might not even create a campaign for it, because they figured out that everyone will buy the module regardless. So why on earth would they go down this particular rabbit hole? 

[=475FG= Dawger]

15 hours ago, Fri13 said:

 

It is fairly clear that the common attitude here is "I want gunners to helicopter that I am flying". Meaning that people have purchased the Huey and they have difficulties to find people who would be willing to sit as a door gunner through whole mission by paying $49 to do so.

And it is already very obvious that no one is talking that anyone would get UH-1H for free at all...

 

 

DCS World is a free game. It comes with a two free aircraft.

- Su-25T that is to present a wide variation of missions that DCS offers by the large collection of different weapons.

- TF-51 that is to present a interactive cockpit functionality and propeller aircraft with advanced flight dynamics (no weapons).

 

Everything else is behind a paywall.

 

So if someone wants to fly, they already get free stuff. If someone wants to fly with friends, they can't do it together in same aircraft but needs to fly either individually or buy a module with multicrew support. And that support has been troublesome for last... 5 years?

 

And isn't it good thing that we could get more people lured to the DCS by getting them first fly with us without them required to consider what to buy, and if they don't like it you ending to be the one who recommended something they didn't like, but if they like it they get to buy something they are interested later on?

 

 

Exactly.

 

 

It seems that some people fear that someone gets something free, that others have been required to buy.

Why should I pay for other people to have fun?

Buy the module or go find a free to play title. Its counterproductive to provide free content for people who cant be bothered to learn to fly in a FLIGHT SIMULATOR.

13 hours ago, Lurker said:

There is no profit in it, they will not do it. It is extra manhours, development and network coding that they could spend on something that will actually bring them a return on their investment. Before you crucify me, I am aware of the shortsightedness of this position, getting someone to sit fly as a passenger\gunner might actually incentivize them into buying the module, but it has been 7 years, let me repeat that 7 YEARS since the Huey has been released and we've only recently gotten multicrew in. Most of the people who are into helicopters in DCS have the Huey, and for the small numbers that might, maybe buy it if they try the door-gunner position first or whatever, it's simply not worth it. It makes absolutely no financial sense and indeed it would incur a cost elsewhere both in $ and manhours. 

Eagle Dynamics has even pulled the plug on the training missions for the Mi-24 (yes the module won't be getting any training missions) and might not even create a campaign for it, because they figured out that everyone will buy the module regardless. So why on earth would they go down this particular rabbit hole? 

Giving out free shit doesn't incentive anything other than the desire for more free shit

[Savvy]

One idea, which may have already been mentioned is where the original owner could buy a special 'gunner' version for 25-50% more. This would allow anyone without the mod to join their heli. So the pilot pays a bit more, but anyone can join.

[Fri13]

10 hours ago, pmiceli said:

Why should I pay for other people to have fun?

 

If you want to fly, you pay.

If you want to shoot things as door gunner, you don't need to pay. But you do not be a door gunner without a pilot that is flying the helicopter.

 

Do you have more fun as a door gunner than as you have as a pilot?

 

Huey is a max 4 player co-operative aircraft.

2 pilots

2 door gunners.

The Co-Pilot has capability to aim miniguns with his hand turned aiming sight.

The only person who doesn't get to shoot by aiming stuff is the pilot, that is required to aim by flying.

 

If you are pilot or co-pilot, you cant have fun while door gunners does?

 

10 hours ago, pmiceli said:

Buy the module or go find a free to play title.

 

How are you suppose to get a 4 players to man a one helicopter by requiring 2 extra players to pay just to get to sit in the whole flight as door gunners and shoot to sides when YOU as the pilot get them opportunity? At least Co-Pilot can shoot forward hemisphere where pilot is flying to, but only either door gunner can shoot while other is facing opposite directions, and neither can shoot forward.

 

Why does some people seriously want to have a minimal player base for DCS, and less players to fly in Co-Op by purposely demanding that side door gunner should be worth of $49!

 

The Single Player attitude in the Multiplayer is gone. Co-Op is far more clever way how to get more players to game.

Even Blizzard understood this long time ago with their games as when you purchased their game, there was two installation options. You got to install the game as Single Player and Multiplayer versions. This made possible for the game owner to install the game for a friend for Co-Op games. Play the campaign and all together - with one price!

The friend with the multiplayer installation couldn't play alone, not start anything etc. All they could do was to join friend game when they were hosting the game. Together they had more fun as it was social gaming!

 

The same thing has been from the start. This is why the console games are far more popular than PC games because you got to sit next to each others in same room and play together. Until the idea came that you need to have two TV sets, two consoles and two copies of the game and only then you got to play together! And how often did THAT HAPPEN?

And that was only because the hardware limitations were too severe. Like example the Playstation version of the 007: Golden Eye was such that you got to play only a deathmatch in split screen, and graphics were seriously limited, maps were fixed so that rendering levels were very limited. And if you connected two consoles and two TV's then you got to play with 4 players total.

Even on the PC there were some special games like the Settlers 3 that had a support for two mouse (other was required to be a P/S2 mouse and other a Serial mouse), and you got to play a RTS game together on one screen, a two mouse cursors on one display and both to move their own town people etc. You got far more fun doing that than to players on own computers.

 

Eventually online games has gone to requiring different computers, and now (couple decades) we are in situation where everyone sits in their own homes and they don't even see each others and it is suppose to be "social gaming".

Maybe it is time to understand that playing together is more fun than playing with friend, and that is more fun than playing against friend.

 

4 players in one helicopter, capable to fly as a real combat helicopter. One flies the helicopter, one uses the helicopter main weapons, two extra players to just shoot door guns while sitting in the vehicle that one flies.

 

How many of you think it is easy to get 4 players to be in one helicopter?

Now, how easy it is to get 4-6 helicopters to be flown in the mission? That is already 16-24 players in total!

 

And thinking that it is normal even require every single one of those two own a $49 license? That everyone of them wants to know how to, or can even fly a helicopter?

It is far more easier to get 4-6 players to just buy the module and everyone flies their own helicopters as Co-Pilot and use the miniguns as they please, than get anyone be a door gunner for them.

 

So less fun, no gained income anyways, the whole point of the door gunners is lost.

Eventually we can really just forget these co-op features in helicopters as there are so few who really want to be a door gunner, especially if they need to pay $49 to be a one for a friend who is doing the flying!

 

10 hours ago, pmiceli said:

Its counterproductive to provide free content for people who cant be bothered to learn to fly in a FLIGHT SIMULATOR.

 

Let's remove the Co-Op capability!

You are not flying as door gunner, so it is unwatend feature! Lets remove the capability to be one! Just like in the Mi-8 it was restricted to be only side door gunner and no capability to be a rear door gunner even when one exist there!

 

Lets remove the F-14 RIO seat as well, heck that guy doesn't even have any FLIGHT CONTROLS TO FLY THE SIMULATOR!

 

10 hours ago, pmiceli said:

Giving out free shit doesn't incentive anything other than the desire for more free shit

 

Wow.... Just wow...

 

DCS World is a 100% free game for anyone to download.

And here we are all willing to pay more for new modules in the game, and some of us want MORE PLAYERS TO THIS GAME TO SHARE IT WITH US WHILE WE FLY!

 

[Fri13]

On 1/13/2021 at 12:20 PM, Lurker said:

et me repeat that 7 YEARS since the Huey has been released and we've only recently gotten multicrew in. Most of the people who are into helicopters in DCS have the Huey, and for the small numbers that might, maybe buy it if they try the door-gunner position first or whatever, it's simply not worth it.

 

"Being in to flying a  helicopters" is not same thing as "being in to the door gunner when a friend flies it".

 

One does not need joystick, throttle or pedals to be a door gunner!

You can get friends to be your door gunners, even those who are not interested to fly anything!

 

I had time to test Huey in Co-Op only with two friends for two days period (they were away meanwhile) in the free time period on Christmas and it was great. But neither wanted to pay $49 to do that, even when their computers sit next to each others. They wanted to try it on later on but as they knew they couldn't because $49 and they didn't even own a joystick, it ended right there - in that spot!

 

This OP idea is not about "I have a Huey license, we all should get a second license for free so he could fly it too" because door gunners do not get to fly. They are not in control of the vehicle, they are not capable do anything else than open/close a door and point a gun at fixed gimbal limit and shoot.

 

Is that seriously worth of $49?

 

If someone wants to fly, and after door gun experience to get the co-pilot experience, then they need to buy the license! Insta win!

Same reason why Su-25T and TF-51 exist in the game for free, that people can get a taste, experience and so on reasons to buy something to get more than what those offers!

 

Su-25T is even one of the most capable aircrafts in the game. Before the Hornet, it was the only one that was capable for anti-ship and SEAD/DEAD missions. It is almost as capable as F/A-18C Hornet is but just without radar.

 

Should Su-25T and TF-51 be removed and put with a price on them? How about $14,90 for the Su-25T and $29,99 for the TF-51?

Edited January 14, 2021 by Fri13

[Lurker]

I was just explaining why it didn't make sense from a business point of view. This has nothing to do with what this is worth to individual players or customers, it's about whether it is worth it to Eagle Dynamics. The answer from a business perspective is that it isn't. It is probably tied to the DRM of the Huey, and is not a trivial thing to implement and program. If it is cost prohibitive to a degree where it would take say a small team of engineers 3-6 months to implement, then test, then deploy and support it doesn't make financial business sense. I am not sure how to further explain why this is completely different from the free Su25T and TF-51. 

 

It would actually make more sense to make the Huey, completely free since it would take 0 manhours to remove its digital right's management. But this would cause a huge outcry among people who have already paid for it. In fact this would attract a lot of players to try helicopters in general, and would introduce them to multicrew in the process as well. Now this idea for example, would be a pretty good one since it would be extremely easy to implement and would add a rotary winged module to the roster of free modules. (We already have jet fixed wing, and unarmed warbird)

Edited January 14, 2021 by Lurker

[SyntaxError]

+1 would be nice.

[=475FG= Dawger]

10 hours ago, Fri13 said:

 

If you want to fly, you pay.

If you want to shoot things as door gunner, you don't need to pay. But you do not be a door gunner without a pilot that is flying the helicopter.

 

Do you have more fun as a door gunner than as you have as a pilot?

 

Huey is a max 4 player co-operative aircraft.

2 pilots

2 door gunners.

The Co-Pilot has capability to aim miniguns with his hand turned aiming sight.

The only person who doesn't get to shoot by aiming stuff is the pilot, that is required to aim by flying.

 

If you are pilot or co-pilot, you cant have fun while door gunners does?

 

 

How are you suppose to get a 4 players to man a one helicopter by requiring 2 extra players to pay just to get to sit in the whole flight as door gunners and shoot to sides when YOU as the pilot get them opportunity? At least Co-Pilot can shoot forward hemisphere where pilot is flying to, but only either door gunner can shoot while other is facing opposite directions, and neither can shoot forward.

 

Why does some people seriously want to have a minimal player base for DCS, and less players to fly in Co-Op by purposely demanding that side door gunner should be worth of $49!

 

The Single Player attitude in the Multiplayer is gone. Co-Op is far more clever way how to get more players to game.

Even Blizzard understood this long time ago with their games as when you purchased their game, there was two installation options. You got to install the game as Single Player and Multiplayer versions. This made possible for the game owner to install the game for a friend for Co-Op games. Play the campaign and all together - with one price!

The friend with the multiplayer installation couldn't play alone, not start anything etc. All they could do was to join friend game when they were hosting the game. Together they had more fun as it was social gaming!

 

The same thing has been from the start. This is why the console games are far more popular than PC games because you got to sit next to each others in same room and play together. Until the idea came that you need to have two TV sets, two consoles and two copies of the game and only then you got to play together! And how often did THAT HAPPEN?

And that was only because the hardware limitations were too severe. Like example the Playstation version of the 007: Golden Eye was such that you got to play only a deathmatch in split screen, and graphics were seriously limited, maps were fixed so that rendering levels were very limited. And if you connected two consoles and two TV's then you got to play with 4 players total.

Even on the PC there were some special games like the Settlers 3 that had a support for two mouse (other was required to be a P/S2 mouse and other a Serial mouse), and you got to play a RTS game together on one screen, a two mouse cursors on one display and both to move their own town people etc. You got far more fun doing that than to players on own computers.

 

Eventually online games has gone to requiring different computers, and now (couple decades) we are in situation where everyone sits in their own homes and they don't even see each others and it is suppose to be "social gaming".

Maybe it is time to understand that playing together is more fun than playing with friend, and that is more fun than playing against friend.

 

4 players in one helicopter, capable to fly as a real combat helicopter. One flies the helicopter, one uses the helicopter main weapons, two extra players to just shoot door guns while sitting in the vehicle that one flies.

 

How many of you think it is easy to get 4 players to be in one helicopter?

Now, how easy it is to get 4-6 helicopters to be flown in the mission? That is already 16-24 players in total!

 

And thinking that it is normal even require every single one of those two own a $49 license? That everyone of them wants to know how to, or can even fly a helicopter?

It is far more easier to get 4-6 players to just buy the module and everyone flies their own helicopters as Co-Pilot and use the miniguns as they please, than get anyone be a door gunner for them.

 

So less fun, no gained income anyways, the whole point of the door gunners is lost.

Eventually we can really just forget these co-op features in helicopters as there are so few who really want to be a door gunner, especially if they need to pay $49 to be a one for a friend who is doing the flying!

 

 

Let's remove the Co-Op capability!

You are not flying as door gunner, so it is unwatend feature! Lets remove the capability to be one! Just like in the Mi-8 it was restricted to be only side door gunner and no capability to be a rear door gunner even when one exist there!

 

Lets remove the F-14 RIO seat as well, heck that guy doesn't even have any FLIGHT CONTROLS TO FLY THE SIMULATOR!

 

 

Wow.... Just wow...

 

DCS World is a 100% free game for anyone to download.

And here we are all willing to pay more for new modules in the game, and some of us want MORE PLAYERS TO THIS GAME TO SHARE IT WITH US WHILE WE FLY!

 

No one wants to ride around as a door gunner for the whole flight, free or not. They will just try to jump in when action is likely. The best candidates for door gunners are other helicopter pilots who got shot down or show up for the mission already in progress. They can get right back in the action.

 

The last thing I want is a bunch of free loading yahoos spamming me with gunner requests when I want my FLYING buddies to be able to jump in as door gunner.

[Gunnar81]

3 hours ago, pmiceli said:

No one wants to ride around as a door gunner for the whole flight, free or not. They will just try to jump in when action is likely. The best candidates for door gunners are other helicopter pilots who got shot down or show up for the mission already in progress. They can get right back in the action.

 

The last thing I want is a bunch of free loading yahoos spamming me with gunner requests when I want my FLYING buddies to be able to jump in as door gunner.

100% agree. If you want to enjoy the module, buy it! Regardless of what position you plan on using. That's like saying if I want to be a back seater in the F-14 I shouldn't have to buy Heatblurs module. Pony up the cash and support the devs or go play Fortnite **** sakes.

[Dangerzone]

Your statement that "No one wants to ride around as a door gunner for the whole flight" has already been proven false by the thread that you just quoted. 

 

And I know they're not alone. I have 2 people also keen to be gunners only, one who got the opportunity during the free-to-try period, but will never fly a helicopter themselves (no rudder controls, a basic 3D pro joystick is all they have) where $49 is too expensive just as a gunner but they would gladly be a gunner otherwise.

 

But you've also proven your own statement false by contradicting yourself because in the same post you worried that you will get "a bunch of freeloading yahoo's spamming you with gunner requests". That wouldn't happen if "no one" is interested in riding around as a door gunner. I'm guessing the free to play period must have been hell for you with all those spammers? 

I find it strange that I didn't experience the same, nor see any complains here about the amount of spammers that were going on during the free to try period. Maybe your concerns are exaggerated and the real reason your upset about this is in your first post "why should I pay for others to have fun"?

 

Hate to break the bad news to you, but the thing is.. if you've purchased a module - you already have paid for others to have fun for free. DCS world itself is free - free maps and some free aircraft... where developers have been financially paid for.... by you, I and others who have purchased paid modules. So what people are suggesting here isn't new - it actually falls closer inline with ED's business model than not. 

 

I thought see this as a positive - it's what adds to the community and entices people to buy other modules. (ED hooked me in that way too!)

 

Even so... solutions that offered a solution for this that so you don't need to be upset about paying for someone else have already been offered which you may have overlooked.

 

But first - good news for you is that I think you won't have to worry about all those spammers you're getting.... because the dev's mentioned in another thread that they would consider bringing in 'slot blocking' options in a future release (to allow us to use the left hand seat as pilot flying) - I reckon that would be up your alley to block all those spammers as well, as you may be able to unblock the slots when your friends want to join - saving you all that spam.

 

As for the solution to your concerns - it would seem that having a "UH-1 Multicrew" upgrade (similar to how they did the warthog) where Huey flyers can pay extra to upgrade to the "UH-1 Anyone Multicrew" option that allows 'free slots' in their helicopter (so they've willingly paid for the privilege) would be something you would support and would suit you as well the rest of us?  Because:

 

- This would allow for some extra income for ED,

 

- Provision for those who want to contribute financially and want friends to be able to play without everyone having to spend $49 per player just to be a gunner

 

- Allow people like yourself to 'opt out' of paying for others by not upgrading, thus not needing to be upset that you've paid and someone else hasn't.

 

Seems a win-win-win scenario to me. The only thing is - I don't know the coding behind the scenes, so I'm open minded enough to ED saying it's too difficult, not worth it from their business structure, etc, but it can't hurt to discuss options and make polite requests to ED for them to consider.

 

I'm sure that there are a whole lot of other options too as people with constructive criticism hash it out and come up with other ideas. Thankfully ED seem to consider a wider selection of the communities feedback with their decision a lot more than your statements have. 

[PiratexCore]

26 minutes ago, Dangerzone said:

...but will never fly a helicopter themselves (no rudder controls, a basic 3D pro joystick is all they have) where $49 is too expensive just as a gunner but they would gladly be a gunner otherwise.

I have no rudder pedals and I only have a Logitech Extreme 3d Pro joystick. You can absolutely learn and get proficient at flying the UH-1H with just that.
Furthermore you can get the Huey 50% off during sales($24.99) of which ED does multiple times a year.

 

Now honestly, I don't have an opinion on whether they should be free or not. Both sides put forth some good points, but I felt I needed to address those two things.

[=475FG= Dawger]

2 hours ago, Dangerzone said:

Your statement that "No one wants to ride around as a door gunner for the whole flight" has already been proven false by the thread that you just quoted. 

 

And I know they're not alone. I have 2 people also keen to be gunners only, one who got the opportunity during the free-to-try period, but will never fly a helicopter themselves (no rudder controls, a basic 3D pro joystick is all they have) where $49 is too expensive just as a gunner but they would gladly be a gunner otherwise.

 

But you've also proven your own statement false by contradicting yourself because in the same post you worried that you will get "a bunch of freeloading yahoo's spamming you with gunner requests". That wouldn't happen if "no one" is interested in riding around as a door gunner. I'm guessing the free to play period must have been hell for you with all those spammers? 

I find it strange that I didn't experience the same, nor see any complains here about the amount of spammers that were going on during the free to try period. Maybe your concerns are exaggerated and the real reason your upset about this is in your first post "why should I pay for others to have fun"?

 

Hate to break the bad news to you, but the thing is.. if you've purchased a module - you already have paid for others to have fun for free. DCS world itself is free - free maps and some free aircraft... where developers have been financially paid for.... by you, I and others who have purchased paid modules. So what people are suggesting here isn't new - it actually falls closer inline with ED's business model than not. 

 

I thought see this as a positive - it's what adds to the community and entices people to buy other modules. (ED hooked me in that way too!)

 

Even so... solutions that offered a solution for this that so you don't need to be upset about paying for someone else have already been offered which you may have overlooked.

 

But first - good news for you is that I think you won't have to worry about all those spammers you're getting.... because the dev's mentioned in another thread that they would consider bringing in 'slot blocking' options in a future release (to allow us to use the left hand seat as pilot flying) - I reckon that would be up your alley to block all those spammers as well, as you may be able to unblock the slots when your friends want to join - saving you all that spam.

 

As for the solution to your concerns - it would seem that having a "UH-1 Multicrew" upgrade (similar to how they did the warthog) where Huey flyers can pay extra to upgrade to the "UH-1 Anyone Multicrew" option that allows 'free slots' in their helicopter (so they've willingly paid for the privilege) would be something you would support and would suit you as well the rest of us?  Because:

 

- This would allow for some extra income for ED,

 

- Provision for those who want to contribute financially and want friends to be able to play without everyone having to spend $49 per player just to be a gunner

 

- Allow people like yourself to 'opt out' of paying for others by not upgrading, thus not needing to be upset that you've paid and someone else hasn't.

 

Seems a win-win-win scenario to me. The only thing is - I don't know the coding behind the scenes, so I'm open minded enough to ED saying it's too difficult, not worth it from their business structure, etc, but it can't hurt to discuss options and make polite requests to ED for them to consider.

 

I'm sure that there are a whole lot of other options too as people with constructive criticism hash it out and come up with other ideas. Thankfully ED seem to consider a wider selection of the communities feedback with their decision a lot more than your statements have. 

Why don't you just buy the module for these people you want to be able to ride for free?

 

Its pretty easy to gift a module.

 

You can buy a stack of them and just let random folks snag them as they come into the server to play door gunner.

 

No one needs to code anything.

You get all the freeloaders you could ever desire riding in your helicopter.

ED sells more UH-1 modules.

 

Winner all around.

 

You can solve this problem immediately with YOUR credit card.

[Dangerzone]

3 hours ago, PiratexCore said:

I have no rudder pedals and I only have a Logitech Extreme 3d Pro joystick. You can absolutely learn and get proficient at flying the UH-1H with just that.
Furthermore you can get the Huey 50% off during sales($24.99) of which ED does multiple times a year.

 

Now honestly, I don't have an opinion on whether they should be free or not. Both sides put forth some good points, but I felt I needed to address those two things.

 

Interesting - thanks for that. I had no idea it was possible. I still don't see them wanting to learn to fly the helicopter - but it's worth knowing this information so if they do decide to - that it's possible.

[BIGNEWY]

Hello everyone, please keep the discussion civil, we all have points of views and are passionate, but lets keep it friendly here. 

 

thank you

[Fri13]

On 1/14/2021 at 11:24 PM, pmiceli said:

No one wants to ride around as a door gunner for the whole flight, free or not. They will just try to jump in when action is likely. The best candidates for door gunners are other helicopter pilots who got shot down or show up for the mission already in progress. They can get right back in the action.

 

Downes pilots to come help you?

Isn't the idea that you wouldn't get shot down?

That you would have door gunners to help you to survive and to complete the mission?

Other pilots are there to fly with you, door gunners are there to help every pilot....

 

 

On 1/14/2021 at 11:24 PM, pmiceli said:

The last thing I want is a bunch of free loading yahoos spamming me with gunner requests when I want my FLYING buddies to be able to jump in as door gunner.

 

Why do you think that anyone could just spam the requests?

Maybe any smart developer would make a list of requests in last 1-3 minute and only one request per player in that list?

And if you want your flying buddies to be your door gunners, why did he not fly his own helicopter?

 

There is the another discussions about penalizing ejected pilots from spawning before their avatar is rescued by SAR helicopters and returned to base.

 So if your buddy gets shot down and survives from it alive so can step out of helicopter, you are there to pick up and performing rescue. And that is when you want anyways to have more players with you to cover you while you land and search the downed pilot. Meanwhile your buddy is either waiting in lobby or using a another virtual pilot from the base and preparing for even rescue own previous virtual pilot.

 

And you anyways have two door gunners places, so you can always carry two extra players to assist you.

 

And as you are a pilot and module owner, you have a control to accept requests and allocate to which doorgun, and then you have same way power to kick players out from the seats if they do not behave.

 

Same thing as in trainer aircraft that you need to accept trainee to front seat, you can at any time take control of the aircraft and you can kick the trainee out if you want.

 

Anyways you are in those co-op helicopters in same intercom or same channel (close proximity for yelling etc) so you need anyways to communicate the tactic and plans etc.

[Fri13]

On 1/15/2021 at 3:53 AM, PiratexCore said:

I have no rudder pedals and I only have a Logitech Extreme 3d Pro joystick. You can absolutely learn and get proficient at flying the UH-1H with just that.

 

Have you experienced flying with extended non-centering joystick, good pedals and collective instead throttle?

 

On 1/15/2021 at 3:53 AM, PiratexCore said:

Furthermore you can get the Huey 50% off during sales($24.99) of which ED does multiple times a year.

 

Sure there are sales, but do you say to your friends "not for next few months, then comes the sale and you get to be my door gunners for $24,80 each"?

 

The idea is to have more co-op potential, more players to enter to DCS because their friends fly helicopter with them and get them interested so they buy something from DCS store, be it a fixed or rotary wing and reagesless be able fly as your door gunners when wanted coop.

 

On 1/15/2021 at 3:53 AM, PiratexCore said:

Now honestly, I don't have an opinion on whether they should be free or not. Both sides put forth some good points, but I felt I needed to address those two things.

 

I see more fear from the opposition than good reasoning. Like somehow studios would lose money when people who are not interested to pay module price to be in non-flyable and limitedly controllable seat, and would be assisting those who did, and get change to get them interested in them.

 

Anyone likely would have easier time to get more players to ride as their door gunners if its free, than get them pay first to be door gunners instead flying a own helicopter with AI gunners.

 

Heck think about possibilities. In future add a rescue swimmers so one could be the flight engineer on the door with winch and help pilot to get close to cargo or downed pilot etc. Operate the winch and mine laying etc.

 

There's are a lot of possibilities for small tasks to assist pilots, not required to be there always or constantly and to make interesting missions.

[Concentric Arc]

Reaching new customers, you didn't know you had, sounds like good business practice to me. I am new to the game. When I saw the price of the modules, I was like woaH...Luckily I came in during the last sale, that helped out a lot. After playing it for a while I understand the prices somewhat. Still not sure if i will spend too much money on full price modules. Player influx is good for business, I have seen too many games die over the years. Would you rather sell one widget at $80 or 10 widgets at 40. Who all have a friend. I looked at the amount of servers when I first came on and was like wow cool. Then I saw the population and was like Oh...Zero people on these 600 servers 1 person on these other 400 servers etc. etc.

 

I have been trying to get some friends interested in the game. When they see the module prices, they basically repeat the price back to me and laugh in the same breath...Now if I could show them some more of the modules like the full on simulated modules. Get them having fun,well who knows. I mean flying around a map with a chopper, full of your friends yelling "get some" would be a blast. And you know, it wouldn't be long before one of them wanted the pilot seat. I could be introducing the newest whale to the game who buys all the modules...

 

On a side note one of the first things I did when seeing the choppers. Was drop into a multiplayer server thinking I could jump into a gunner seat and check out the fun and the Huey. I was disappointed. I still haven't bought the Huey yet. And I probably won't. if I am still around for the Apache release, I might pick that up, or maybe a sale or maybe never...If i can't talk my buddies into playing well that's a different story. I have been gaming with some of these people for 10 years or more.

 

Cheers, 

Edited January 16, 2021 by Concentric Arc

[=475FG= Dawger]

1 hour ago, Fri13 said:

 

Downes pilots to come help you?

Isn't the idea that you wouldn't get shot down?

That you would have door gunners to help you to survive and to complete the mission?

Other pilots are there to fly with you, door gunners are there to help every pilot....

 

 

 

Why do you think that anyone could just spam the requests?

Maybe any smart developer would make a list of requests in last 1-3 minute and only one request per player in that list?

And if you want your flying buddies to be your door gunners, why did he not fly his own helicopter?

 

There is the another discussions about penalizing ejected pilots from spawning before their avatar is rescued by SAR helicopters and returned to base.

 So if your buddy gets shot down and survives from it alive so can step out of helicopter, you are there to pick up and performing rescue. And that is when you want anyways to have more players with you to cover you while you land and search the downed pilot. Meanwhile your buddy is either waiting in lobby or using a another virtual pilot from the base and preparing for even rescue own previous virtual pilot.

 

And you anyways have two door gunners places, so you can always carry two extra players to assist you.

 

And as you are a pilot and module owner, you have a control to accept requests and allocate to which doorgun, and then you have same way power to kick players out from the seats if they do not behave.

 

Same thing as in trainer aircraft that you need to accept trainee to front seat, you can at any time take control of the aircraft and you can kick the trainee out if you want.

 

Anyways you are in those co-op helicopters in same intercom or same channel (close proximity for yelling etc) so you need anyways to communicate the tactic and plans etc.

I do not think allowing long term free access to the Huey Door Gunner helps the game in any way. 

 

As I said in a post that got deleted, anyone who can afford the computer to run DCS can afford to pay for the UH-1 module. 

 

The biggest aid to growing DCS and interest in DCS is giving ED money, which incentivizes continued work to produce modules we want to pay for.

 

 

4 minutes ago, Concentric Arc said:

Reaching new customers, you didn't know you had, sounds like good business practice to me. I am new to the game. When I saw the price of the modules, I was like woaH...Luckily I came in during the last sale, that helped out a lot. After playing it for a while I understand the prices somewhat. Still not sure if i will spend too much money on full price modules. Player influx is good for business, I have seen too many games die over the years. Would you rather sell one widget at $80 or 10 widgets at 40. Who all have a friend. I looked at the amount of servers when I first came on and was like wow cool. Then I saw the population and was like Oh...Zero people on these 600 servers 1 person on these other 400 servers etc. etc.

 

I have been trying to get some friends interested in the game. When they see the module prices, they basically repeat the price back to me and laugh in the same breath...Now if I could show them some more of the modules like the full on simulated modules. Get them having fun,well who knows. I could be introducing the newest whale to the game who buys all the modules...

 

On a side note one of the first things I did when seeing the choppers. Was drop into a multiplayer server thinking I could jump into a gunner seat and check out the fun and the Huey. I was disappointed. I still haven't bought the Huey yet. And I probably won't. if I am still around for the Apache release, I might pick that up, or maybe a sale or maybe never...If i can't talk my buddies into playing well that's a different story. I have been gaming with some of these people for 10 years or more.

 

Cheers, 

If $80 for a full fidelity aircraft module is too high, then that isn't really a potential customer.

 

Think of buying a car.

 

Every sports car enthusiast would like to own and drive a Ferrari. Most of us can't so we settle for what we can. A Porsche, Corvette or Z. Or maybe even a Mini Cooper.

 

DCS is the Ferrari in the market.

[Concentric Arc]

 

 

17 minutes ago, pmiceli said:

Every sports car enthusiast would like to own and drive a Ferrari. Most of us can't so we settle for what we can. A Porsche, Corvette or Z. Or maybe even a Mini Cooper.

 

But if they were cheaper people would, guess what, buy more of them. But that isn't what this post is about. That was just an observation as a new player in 2021, from someone that started gaming on a Colecovision. They would sell more. Not sure what you don't understand about that. For some reason, you want a small stagnant population? Companies don't grow, when people don't spend money...The more money a company has, guess what, the more they can spend on those shiny new modules. The devs have families to feed as well and hell maybe they want a shiny new Ferrari themselves.

 

 

15 minutes ago, pmiceli said:

The biggest aid to growing DCS and interest in DCS is giving ED money, which incentivizes continued work to produce modules we want to pay for.

 

You said it yourself.

[=475FG= Dawger]

17 minutes ago, Concentric Arc said:

 

 

 

But if they were cheaper people would, guess what, buy more of them. But that isn't what this post is about. That was just an observation as a new player in 2021, from someone that started gaming on a Colecovision. They would sell more. Not sure what you don't understand about that. For some reason, you want a small stagnant population? Companies don't grow, when people don't spend money...The more money a company has, guess what, the more they can spend on those shiny new modules. The devs have families to feed as well and hell maybe they want a shiny new Ferrari themselves.

 

 

 

You said it yourself.

This thread is about FREE access to the Huey Door Gunner. I am all for charging people for Door Gunner Access. ED gets to decide what that access should cost but I think it should be just as it is now, buy the whole module.

 

If they charge for Door Gunner Access only, ED would be required to code that access restriction and manage a separate module for DGA. I am doubtful the potential revenue from a cheaper DGA module would make the extra work worthwhile.

 

The simplest solution is to sell the full module for access to any of the crew positions. However, if ED thinks they can generate revenue by creating a Huey DGA module, more power to them. 

 

I think it is silly to expect them to do this and then charge nothing for it. And I think it is silly to expect me to be happy about the prospect of providing free access to a part of a module I have to pay for.

 

It is the same as the Super Carrier. One guy doesn't  buy the SC and everyone else gets to spawn in, launch and land on it for free.

Edited January 16, 2021 by pmiceli

[Concentric Arc]

3 minutes ago, pmiceli said:

And I think it is silly to expect me to be happy about the prospect of providing free access to a part of a module I have to pay for someone else to get free access to.

I'm sure there would be an option so you don't have to worry about introducing "Free Loaders" (customers) to the game. I mean hell, when you go and buy a car do you not test drive it. Maybe all dealerships should require everyone to buy their car, to be a passenger in it? Do you tell your friends to give you money every time they get on board? And nobody is asking them to give full access to a module, at least not that I read. 

Oh and nobody is "TELLING" anyone to do anything. People like you and I are giving our opinions. Guess what our opinions aren't the same...Big deal.

[Brigg]

Ive started getting back into the Huey recently and think that people should at least have to pay something to be a door gunner. Ok maybe not full module price but if you have to pay something then it will hopefully reduce the chances of some idiot jumping in and just dicking around.

[PiratexCore]

1 hour ago, Fri13 said:

 

Have you experienced flying with extended non-centering joystick, good pedals and collective instead throttle?

 

No, I only have what I listed there. My point with that particular statement is that you can absolutely fly and have fun with the Huey with only a single stick(and a cheap one at that). The other peripherals certainly add to the experience and immersion, but they aren't required.

 

 

1 hour ago, Fri13 said:

Sure there are sales, but do you say to your friends "not for next few months, then comes the sale and you get to be my door gunners for $24,80 each"?

 

The idea is to have more co-op potential, more players to enter to DCS because their friends fly helicopter with them and get them interested so they buy something from DCS store, be it a fixed or rotary wing and reagesless be able fly as your door gunners when wanted coop.

 

Sure. Or perhaps I buy it for them as a gift, or we could split the cost. The plus side with this route is that they have the helicopter too, so whenever they feel ready to try to fly it, it's right there ready to go. Let's not forget that ED has also been doing "try modules for free" events alongside sales now too.

 

At the end of the day though your friends have to want to play a flight sim, because that's what DCS is.

 

[Dangerzone]

  

3 hours ago, Concentric Arc said:

I am new to the game. When I saw the price of the modules, I was like woaH... <snip> Still not sure if i will spend too much money on full price modules.

 

 

Aaah - I remember those days when I was new... a little under a year ago - thinking the same thing, and going for the free aircraft. As a warning: I then got the bug. And now I've spent more on DCS than any other of my hobbies since.    As someone else has put it on this forum "DCS is the most expensive free game you will ever play" - and I would add to that, that I regret none of it either! 

 

For me DCS's introduction 2 main problems. One was the perceived price of the modules (didn't think that it justified the price as I didn't know what went into it)... and the other was the time needed to invest into it to learn the aircraft systems. Through some friends I first purchased the F/A-18 and was helped to learn the very basics of getting it flying. We then enjoying just launching and recovery from the aircraft carrier. We slowly progressed onto a bit of basic A/A combat, and things kinda took off from there. 

 

... and then I found VR and helicopters! 

 

I'm aware each person is different, and I know the statistics say that most players play offline. All I know is that I was introduced to DCS by another DCS player and it took me time to realise the value of the systems. 

[Concentric Arc]

1 hour ago, Dangerzone said:

One was the perceived price of the modules (didn't think that it justified the price as I didn't know what went into it)

Yup agreed, I do actually get it. After buying some modules and "trying" to learn to fly them, LoL. Which I alluded to, in one of my replies already. And I do enjoy playing this Sim very much. Which is why I want to see it continue to grow. We all know what happens to stagnant companies...

 

On a side note these US$80 modules cost me $100CDn. That's a fair bit of change, not too mention, whatever flight controllers, VR, Ir tracking etc. you folks use in the US pretty much cost me DOUBLE the price with the exchange rate, shipping and duties. So yeah it's an expensive game hobby. But worth it. I was looking at a Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog the other day $1300CDN. Ouch!, maybe next Christmas. Now if I could just talk my US gaming friends, into not being so cheap and pick up a module or at least try the base game. /wink...