Huey gunners should not have to own the module

[Tom_]

I think ED should allow stations that do not require advanced system handling to be open to everyone. Why? Look at il2 (the sim). It is really popular with its bombers and larger planes. That sim also has multicrew. Every gunner station can be used by ANYONE. It is not locked behind a paywall (you do have to own the game). Why doesn't ED do something like this? I understand the co-pilot has to own the module. And if it was a more modern plane I can understand you would need to own the module if you want to use, lets say a radar or whatever. But stuff like gunner stations or other stations that just don't justify buying the module for that. So i think it would be a good move to allow players that don't own the huey to operate the gunner stations.

Some examples with random planes:
Chinook:

Pilot: has to own module

Co Pilot: has to own module

Load master: doesnt have to own module

any gunner station: doesnt have to own module

 

F4:

Pilot: has to own module

Co Pilot: has to own module

 

B17:

Pilot: has to own module

Co Pilot: has to own module

any gunner station: doesnt have to own module

[LHog_]

I agree, with little to no major interaction with flight controls you shouldn’t have to pay to sit in the back seat and gun down hostiles, it just isn’t a big enough part of the module to be worth paying 40+ dollars for if you don’t want to fly and only find joy in being crew such as a load master or gunner. Being a Pilot or Copilot is a different story as they have access to the major functions of the helicopter and are responsible for keeping it airborne. You shouldn’t have to pay to hop in the back seat and hang out with strangers you’ve never met before.

[Tom_]

I have spend some time arguing with some friends and there are some things id like to add:

 

Community feeling scammed:

Now, I do not know everyone in the community. Not even close. But I personally don't know anyone who has bought the huey just to be a gunner. Making the gunner positions free would most likely not anger many people. Seeing as the most features are in the front 2 seats (pilot and co pilot). Why do you buy a module? My guess is that most people buy it to fly it. So I personally dont think this would be a problem. If you are someone who has bought the huey just for the gunner stations please let me know and if you would dislike it if they would be made free.

 

ED would miss out on money:

As I said, I think most people buy a module to fly it. So I don't think this would be the case at first glance.

I think it would do the opposite. People wouldn't have to spend a penny to fly gunner stations. And I think most people would like to fly the huey themselves at some point. So it might create an easier way into DCS. You will already have someone to play with that knows his way around DCS. So you would instantly have someone to teach you.

 

Possible piracy:

DCS already knows what modules you own and don't own. The gunner stations would "just" be a free part of the huey. Players that bought the huey would be able to switch however they want and players that didn't buy the huey would only be able to switch between gunner stations. DCS already has all the data that would be needed. So ED would "just" have to make a check between switching to and from pilot stations.

[Ratcatcher]

Yes I would like to see this too. I have a couple of friends that are not and probably never will be into flying but would enjoy co-op.

If ED made this available there could actually be a positive uptake on those that 'dabble' in the game as the gunner and from there become interested in other aspects of the game, maybe not even flying but as a RIO (F14) or a front seat gunner/co-pilot (Huey, Gazelle, Apache, etc), which would require them to purchase the module. From small acorns...

Edited January 6, 2021 by Ratcatcher

[Dangerzone]

It's completely up to ED to decide, but coming from an ignorant view (as I have no idea what would be involved in developing / allowing this, especially since L & R gunners can switch into copilot seat and that would need to be considered).... but from a surface view I actually think it would work in their favor to introduce this and support this idea.

 

Other pilots seeing how much fun can be had down low may be tempted to buy the UH-1 so they can fly it too. (Yes, I know that we have the free to try period, and that is fantastic - so this isn't really a need - however those that miss or join later could still be 'won' over)... if it wasn't costly to implement, it's hard to see any negatives in allowing this, and mostly all positive.

 

Maybe ED will consider. Of course, it's their right if they choose not to, or if there are any reasons we're unaware that would cause problems their end. 

 

Or alternatively - I as a UH-1 pilot would be willing to buy a UH-1 MK II upgrade that included multicrew for say an extra ~$10 that allows other people access to my slot if that was an option. Probably much less practical but if there was additional cost of development involved, I'm thinking those who already own the module would be happy to pay a small amount extra to have AI replaced with real people, and that could be another approach that could have a financial incentive to it.

 

In short, if a free option wouldn't be considered by ED, a small purchase option for UH-1 owners to allow other crews would be a welcome second option.

[Sleipner]

I think it would be great if gunner stations in any module was accessible to gamers owning « combined arms » module.

[StormBat]

  Actually I agree with Sleipner,  if you purchased Combined Arms then you should make this a feature,  That way ED gets some compensation,  and really it makes sense to me that this should be the way anyway.  Combined Arms is very affordable too, especially when it's on sale.  

Edited January 6, 2021 by StormBat

[Tom_]

20 hours ago, Sleipner said:

I think it would be great if gunner stations in any module was accessible to gamers owning « combined arms » module.

I personally dont think this would be a good idea. With the door stations becoming free anyone who already has the huey module would still be able to use it. If you would lock it behind a paywall it would suddenly be locked for everyone that has the huey and not CA. I think the door stations would need to be free or just as they are now. CA (in my opinion) should keep it at ground units and not planes.

[StormBat]

14 hours ago, Tom_ said:

I personally dont think this would be a good idea. With the door stations becoming free anyone who already has the huey module would still be able to use it. If you would lock it behind a paywall it would suddenly be locked for everyone that has the huey and not CA. I think the door stations would need to be free or just as they are now. CA (in my opinion) should keep it at ground units and not planes.

Sorry Tom as someone who started out with IL-2(Forgotten Battles right up to 1946 and CLOD) DCS has IMO a more immersive and steeper learning curve, In other words it's more of a sim/challenge, or rather has more substance to most of their mods than IL-2.(not just because of the clickable cockpits or the modern aircraft) Now having said that it does have issues like horrible ATC and a few other things that are still a WIP, and if it wasn't for IL-2 I would have probably never gotten into DCS World.  For IL-2 yes graphics were good, learning curve was moderate, and it was fun for all,  but at the end of the day tech changed and DCS just was more real to me and a lot more interesting, and others I flew with felt the same way.   Sure when you buy IL-2 or a DLC from IL-2 you are getting a lot more aircraft.  But IMO again it's a shadow of the aircraft and NOT the more realistic, let alone more satisfying(at least for me)  So yes it's an expensive hobby, but the satisfaction you get knowing that it's more difficult is the point, and the compensation.  Combined arms should extend to the gunners position, in any aircraft regardless, and I'm sure it'll be a process with coding when it comes to who you want to invite to share your multiplayer experience with, but at least support the devs if you ever want this to to happen.  

[Dangerzone]

Seems like the easy solution for the CA suggestion is to allow either CA users and/or Huey users to have access to the door gunners. I think this would solve Tom's concern and still meet StormBat's requirements.

 

Of course - I still think the best option is to make it free for everyone. People getting into DCS for 'free' to start with get to fly with people on the community - and I would expect that a large number of those would eventually get 'the bug' and end up purchasing other modules eventually. But if ED isn't willing to meet us there, half way is better than nothing.

 

I think multi-crew has the ability to bring a lot more people to online gameplay as well as bring more people into the DCS community as well - I'd like to see it leveraged in a way that would gain the best results.

Edited January 7, 2021 by Dangerzone

[Tom_]

I personally don't see how CA would fit gunner stations. CA is Combined Arms. That is the cooperation between air and an other type of combat. Like ground troops. Gunners are not ground troops. They are air troops. I feel like that would just make CA an even more weird module then it already is. I always saw it like the FC3 of the ground. FC3 doesnt have ground troops included, so CA should not include air troops.

[StormBat]

Listen, I'm not here to Piss on anyone's parade. I think there are some great Ideas here too.  And to those who think giving door gunner or other positions that have nothing to do with functioning a particular air frame for free I feel you, I really do. Maybe your right as well about bringing non prospects into this sim who otherwise would just ignore it. 

 

Obviously this thread is being read by ED, and maybe they might see it as a way of bringing more people into the fold sort of speak.  But what I found is most flight simmers are in the middle, they want immersion but not a steep learning curve.  Which means this is a niche market and I think ED recognize that as well, but who knows maybe ED will experiment with these things in the future. 

 

But alas I feel they are still waiting to maybe a 3.0 version with updated and totally revamped ATC, weather(clouds and all), most if not all of their air frames along with 3rd party being fully complete.  Vulkan engine, you know, the whole lot.   DCS world is a diamond in the rough, but it still shines, and I know if it keeps going the way it does, well only time will tell, but I feel that the future is bright for ED and it's valued Customers,  Cheers all  

[Fri13]

Sorry, I completely agree with the idea.

 

Helicopter gunner positions shouldn't be behind payware.

It is way too challenging to get example 3-4 players to play same Mi-8 helicopter, and even more challenging to have them to own one. Like who want to buy a module just to sit in a door gunner?

 

The similar thing is with trainer aircraft IMHO. Front seat should be free for all trainers so if the module owner wants to get someone flying with them, they only need to have DCS installed to do so.

The module is required to be owned so it can be taken to flight, and the module owner need to be sitting in the rear seat through the whole time the free-front seat is there. And at any given time the rear seat can use the proper actions to take the controls away from front seat just like in the real trainer.

 

 

With UH-1H, Mi-8 and Mi-24, the door gunners should be free. So the module owner is required to sit in the Pilot or Co-Pilot/WSO seat and then they can open the door gunners available for others, and they need to approve someone to jump in. Meaning one can join to server and wait friends to come online, while having gunner positions open. When someone wants to allocate specific seat, the permission is asked from the aircraft host (the module owner, the pilot and not the co-pilot) and this way only friends can be accepted or if wanted anyone else randomly.

 

All these has only the positive effects to DCS, as new players can be brought to simulation, to get them even fly trainers with someone without buying it, there are huge bonus to own these trainers as dual-seated fighters (F-14, F-4 etc) doesn't offer these. And we get more players to join for multi-seat helicopters to shoot with the guns. And we get people interested about these vehicles and they would buy then those to enjoy flying them by themselves! Online communities would get new players and new content etc.

Even a flight clubs, LAN parties and such would enjoy it, as there is no need to buy every PC for a license.

 

Even helicopters like Gazelle, Kiowa Warrior or Mi-24 with Co-Pilot/WSO the seat is behind payware because they can fly the thing and they are key personnel to operate the helicopter.

 

[Fri13]

On 1/6/2021 at 1:34 PM, Sleipner said:

I think it would be great if gunner stations in any module was accessible to gamers owning « combined arms » module.

 

I disagree with that, as the core of idea is to get more players join as door gunners in the helicopters (or get non-DCS players interested to fly in trainers etc) and that is just replacing one paywall to another.

 

Like what difference it then makes to pay $39 for a Combined Arms when a UH-1H costs $49?

Sure you get with CA price to be in UH-1H and Mi-8 and up coming Mi-24, but you are in same position as previously, how to get people invest money to the free game that requires $40 to fly as a door gunner (or front seat of trainer)?

 

The Combined Arms should be about Ground and Surface units, not about flying ones. Example the CA should offer means to operate SAM systems, be a airfield ATC etc. But I would even consider that being a GCI operator belongs to CA. Where then the possible upcoming IADS module would be about commanding a whole defense strategy and tactics than just individual unit (personally I think the IADS should be part of the CA overall).

But when it comes to things like AWACS or Hawkeye etc, it should be separate module as aircraft to fly and as well own kind slot to be seated in those places.

 

The Combined Arms should be more designed for RTS gamers, so they can just jump in the large massive digital war on huge maps, where they are given ranks and possibilities to command individual troops and eventually as get higher ranking etc the larger units. As we need more players for multiplayer that are humans, that will generate totally new kind scenarios, tactics etc that AI can't do. There are way more RTS players out there than there are flight simulation players. You can have a RTS player to sit front of the tactical map for hours, while you can not get good amount of players to sit in a helicopter gunner position for good time to fly to the mission, then operate the machine gun while they have no control of the helicopter - and to pay to do so.

 

Of course the CA owners would have some other special things, planning missions for all pilots to accept, to jump in as well like anyone else, but as well be there to communicate between pilots and command the ground forces (as CA player) and play along with their RTS.

But when anyone else can jump in as door gunner, these two CA and Helicopter module owners just generated more content and reasons for others join in.

[Tom_]

12 hours ago, StormBat said:

Listen, I'm not here to Piss on anyone's parade.

I am sorry if i seemed angry. I was not angry or pissed! I love all ideas that people come up with! More ideas = better!

 

11 hours ago, Fri13 said:

Even helicopters like Gazelle, Kiowa Warrior or Mi-24 with Co-Pilot/WSO the seat is behind payware because they can fly the thing and they are key personnel to operate the helicopter.

+1

 

[ST0RM]

With as many sales ED has throughout the year, just buy the module. The gunner's positions are part of the aircraft, period. The work involved to make that independent would take away resources from modules that actually need the attention. 

[Fri13]

8 minutes ago, ST0RM said:

With as many sales ED has throughout the year, just buy the module. The gunner's positions are part of the aircraft, period. The work involved to make that independent would take away resources from modules that actually need the attention. 

 

You are missing the point.

You don't get the buyers anyways as almost no one is willing to put a $49 for a module just to sit as a door gunner and doing nothing else.

The product needs to offer value for its user and for the community. Like example trainer aircraft are mainly funded by making simulator for private sector, not for DCS.

But for normal DCS player the trainers don't present much at all if they want a fighter or ground pounder. It is easier for them to just go training with the actual module than go through trainer first.

 

With helicopters that are 4-5 seater it is again different thing. Everyone wants to be the pilot, co-pilot or WSO etc. Not many want to be a door gunner or flight engineer. And those who are willing to do so sometimes, to pay for it.... Not really. So you don't get much action or use for helicopters as you don't get people play with you in it. Lucky if you get even that co-pilot with you. Like look at the F-14, there is a huge demand for human RIO's out there, and that guy has far more to do and more responsibilities to success than any helicopter door gunner does.

 

ED is currently developing the Co-Op capability in DCS. And this is the time that they seriously look at their business model, their offerings how to maximize the players enjoyment and profits. And this idea is nothing more than positive by all means to bring more profit, more players, more fun etc.

 

[ST0RM]

Good luck trying to convince them to do this. 

I get the point and I see it as entitlement. More of the "I want something for nothing". I dont see how this will benefit ED's business model since the human gunner position was just added, after 7 years. Most of us have already bought the Huey, so they stand to gain very little, if anything from your idea. 

[hannibal]

give ED some love.

there are always sales.

your friends should purchase. 

25$ dont break the bank, and plus who ever purchases also has the option to really get into the aircraft.

 

 

[Home Fries]

I posted something similar back in 2013 (a post which is unfortunately no longer accessible).  The gist of the logic was as follows:

 

1. The door gunner position doesn't appear to require any gauges or cockpit textures not already present with the 3D model itself, so there may not be a need to download the module itself.
2. People who know they want to fly the Huey will have already paid for it (even more true today than in 2013).
3. People who want a taste of it can do so for free, and ED will likely increase their sales when people get a taste of Huey greatness.
4. People who just wanted a Call of Duty experience as a door gunner were unlikely to purchase the UH-1 in the first place, so this would be unlikely to prevent sales or have any opportunity cost.

 

Now the only curveball is that the slots for CP and both gunners are interchangeable in MP.  Implementing this would further complicate the MP logic (e.g. requiring a copilot to already slot in before enabling DG positions for free users), and that might be more work than it's worth, especially with the frequent sales ED has.

Edited January 10, 2021 by Home Fries

[Tom_]

In the end its up to ED. I am not going to play economic expert or whatever. I just wanted to let ED know i think a lot of people would like it. So far i have gotten more positive responses then negative ones. If its viable in terms of code and sales is up to ED.

[=475FG= Dawger]

Attracting people with no interest in flying to DCS by offering “free” stuff seems ridiculous on its face. All that accomplishes is the creation of a sub-community who will hate the “elite” pilots and demand more and more non-aircraft content for little or no money.

 

Been there, done that. It does not end well.

 

No free access to modules that others paid for.

 

Now, if we can set up a pay system where gunners “rent” a gunner slot without the need to download the module and ED splits the cash with the module owner, I would go for that. 

 

 

Edited January 11, 2021 by pmiceli

[Fri13]

On 1/11/2021 at 3:39 PM, pmiceli said:

Attracting people with no interest in flying to DCS by offering “free” stuff seems ridiculous on its face.

 

Sounds like you just called every RTS gamer (up coming Combined Arms upgrades with dynamic campaign etc) ridiculous, among all the people who would like to be a door gunner while someone is flying it - but not ready to pay $49 for it....

 

Seriously, what is in the door gunner seat that is so expensive that it should warrant to own the whole module?

Door gunners do not fly the helicopter, they have no other access than open/close the door, aim the gun, shoot it and reload the gun!

 

Oh, hold on...

 

 

[Dangerzone]

On 1/10/2021 at 7:08 AM, ST0RM said:

I get the point and I see it as entitlement. More of the "I want something for nothing". I dont see how this will benefit ED's business model since the human gunner position was just added, after 7 years. Most of us have already bought the Huey, so they stand to gain very little, if anything from your idea. 

 

It would be interesting to see how many people here advocating for this have already paid. Fair enough if most of the people calling for it weren't Huey owners, but I suspect most commenting here already have paid for the UH-1 - and aren't wanting something for nothing.... which would negate your 'I want something for nothing/entitlement" statement. I'd suggest most pilots are more than willing to pay some extra for this if need be to have a crew available. (I mentioned myself that I would have been willing to pay for an upgrade (like with the warthog) with this feature enabled as well, but I'm guessing the opportunity for that ship has sailed...)

 

Having free to access rear seats benefits the people who buy or are considering buying the Huey probably more than the gunners... because they're able to have interactive crew with them / fly with their friends. I see this as benefitting those who already paid far more than those who pay nothing. 

 

I also wonder how many more people would be enticed to buy it that don't already have it - if they knew they could fly with their friends who won't want to fly the module itself. As mentioned before, most aren't going to pay that price just to sit in the back seat, so the question is would adding a feature be more likely to bring in more income than not having it.

 

In the end - ED are the only ones that know how complicated it is, and best to guess what the cost/benefits to them will be. I don't see any harm in the community making suggestions and putting out potential benefits, provided none become 'entitled' or expecting ED to do this - which from what I can see so far, most seem pretty reasonable sharing thoughts, not expectations. I certainly don't see the comments here suggesting wanting something for nothing, or coming from the "entitlement" brigade. 

Edited January 12, 2021 by Dangerzone

[Fri13]

9 hours ago, Dangerzone said:

 

It would be interesting to see how many people here advocating for this have already paid. Fair enough if most of the people calling for it weren't Huey owners, but I suspect most commenting here already have paid for the UH-1 - and aren't wanting something for nothing.... which would negate your 'I want something for nothing/entitlement" statement.

 

It is fairly clear that the common attitude here is "I want gunners to helicopter that I am flying". Meaning that people have purchased the Huey and they have difficulties to find people who would be willing to sit as a door gunner through whole mission by paying $49 to do so.

And it is already very obvious that no one is talking that anyone would get UH-1H for free at all...

 

9 hours ago, Dangerzone said:

Having free to access rear seats benefits the people who buy or are considering buying the Huey probably more than the gunners... because they're able to have interactive crew with them / fly with their friends. I see this as benefitting those who already paid far more than those who pay nothing. 

 

DCS World is a free game. It comes with a two free aircraft.

- Su-25T that is to present a wide variation of missions that DCS offers by the large collection of different weapons.

- TF-51 that is to present a interactive cockpit functionality and propeller aircraft with advanced flight dynamics (no weapons).

 

Everything else is behind a paywall.

 

So if someone wants to fly, they already get free stuff. If someone wants to fly with friends, they can't do it together in same aircraft but needs to fly either individually or buy a module with multicrew support. And that support has been troublesome for last... 5 years?

 

And isn't it good thing that we could get more people lured to the DCS by getting them first fly with us without them required to consider what to buy, and if they don't like it you ending to be the one who recommended something they didn't like, but if they like it they get to buy something they are interested later on?

 

9 hours ago, Dangerzone said:

I also wonder how many more people would be enticed to buy it that don't already have it - if they knew they could fly with their friends who won't want to fly the module itself. As mentioned before, most aren't going to pay that price just to sit in the back seat, so the question is would adding a feature be more likely to bring in more income than not having it.

 

Exactly.

 

9 hours ago, Dangerzone said:

In the end - ED are the only ones that know how complicated it is, and best to guess what the cost/benefits to them will be. I don't see any harm in the community making suggestions and putting out potential benefits, provided none become 'entitled' or expecting ED to do this - which from what I can see so far, most seem pretty reasonable sharing thoughts, not expectations. I certainly don't see the comments here suggesting wanting something for nothing, or coming from the "entitlement" brigade. 

 

It seems that some people fear that someone gets something free, that others have been required to buy.