Sell me the Viper

[twistking]

Hello,

on the free trial i had planned to test out the f-18c and eventually buy it, since it seemed to me that the hornet is now in a good enough state feature-wise for me to enjoy and i had my eyes on her for quite some time now. And while i was quite impressed with the module, i did not completely jazz with it somehow. I think it was mainly the FCS that felt so decoupled from my inputs. Also - coming from the A-10c - the hotas integration felt so barebone and not really thought-out. What i did love however was the visual and audio fidelity and the pure multirole galore with all that different weapons, vintage ones included. Wall-Eye is such a fun thing to use, smokey Sparrows are just cool to look at...

 

Without any hopes of liking it, i did eventually also download the viper and was immediately liking it better. the handling felt much more direct and despite the FBW i could develop a better feeling for the aircraft. I think most importantly i was impressed with the hotas integration. It's fantastic. The a-10c now feels overly complicated comapred to the viper in this regard. Yes, and the viper has some nice curves to it.

However it appears that the viper comes with less interesting weapons, or just fewer weapons one could say. And since it's still further behind in early access it feels barebone in it's own way. It took me mere minutes on cold start to hit the early-access-wall of un-immersivnes with things not being implemented yet, placeholder screens etc.

 

I tried to research what is yet to come for the viper, but the post by wags in this forum ahs only the major points listed (ag radar etc.). I wonder what else will the viper offer for those that are interested in avionics and system modeling. Will there be some wizadry added to the HSD (currently it feels very barebone)? interesting submodes for the radar? anything very particular to the f-16 not found on other jets?

I'm not interested in stuff that makes the viper more deadly per se, but interesting things to learn that offer more depth to the sim.

 

So in short: I'm surprised how nicely she flies despite the FBW, i like the looks, the sound... oh and i like the maverick ripple-fire (although i could not get it to work in my limited testing time) but what else? what else?

the hornet has so much "stuff", what will the viper offer?

[taco3rd]

Pros: fast, great agility, awesome at BVR, decent dogfighter, multi-role so you're not a 1 dimensional a-a or a-g.

Cons: it's not as complete as the f18 as there's still bugs and non-implemented systems, it only carries 7100lbs of fuel so it has really short legs - so you carry fuel tanks a lot which hurts it's performance drastically, but can be overcome by knowing when to drop the tanks. It doesn't carry as many bombs and weapons as the 18. If you like Navy and dealing with carriers, get the 18. If you like Air Force and dealing with airports, get the 16 and you'll get to the target 10 minutes before the 18. I'm not a big fan of the 20mm guns they're really only good for light armor.

That said, I prefer the 16 but I don't have as much experience with the 18, so take it for what it's worth.

If

you like interesting weapons, check out the CBU97. I can't imagine there's a more fun bomb to drop than them. Absolutely devastating to armor.

 

This video is better:

I'd like to see the mavericks be more user friendly. I have a bit of experience, but no matter how many videos I watch, I can't get the damn things bore-sighted half the time and have to slew manually which defeats the purpose of the TGP integration. Another thing I'd like to see is the antiskid. It's way too easy to lock the wheels up.

 

Edited January 6, 2021 by taco3rd

[Deano87]

Weapon wise, as already pointed out the CBU-97 is great fun, and tbh pretty OP against stationary armour lol. You can carry 10 on the Viper and unlike the A-10 you actually have the speed to be able to sling them a fair distance when you toss bomb, so they can be used in a "standoff" capability. Surprisingly good for taking out sam sites if you're feeling brave lol. They are dumb unguided cluster munitions so they are effected by wind and your release precision but we should get the precision guided version of this weapon, the CBU-105 which will home in on a GPS coordinate like a JDAM. Although I don't know how many we will be able to carry, as they may require different racks.

 

The Viper will get the HTS or Harm Targetting System which is a seperate pod that sits under the chin intake and will allow for much better ability to sniff out and locate enemy radar sites for the HARM missile, this will be unique to the Viper.

 

Aircraft wise they are totally different really. The Hornet doesn't mind getting slow, It has AOA for days and plenty of nose authority, The Viper you need to keep above 350 in a turn fight otherwise you'll get into your AOA limit and stop turning. IMHO the Cockpit in the Viper offers the best seat in the house, Nothing quite matches the bowless canopy, specially in VR. The Hornet of course has carrier ops which is a whole thing in itself. Apart from the carrier ops side of things I find flying the Viper more engaging from a Take-off and Landing point of view. you pretty much just fly the Hornet into the runway without flaring, select ground idle, airbrake out and hit the brakes. Nailing a landing and following aerobrake in the Viper is much trickier (specially in a crosswind!) and is much more satisfying to me. It has ILS (something the Hornet doesn't have for land bases at least) So you can shoot low visibility ILS approaches in it, which the masochistic side of me really enjoys lol. Air to Air refueling is different on both, the Navy uses probe and drogue which has its own challenges, but the Viper with the receptical being behind the pilot means when you're really close to the undeside of the tanker when on the boom, which you will be doing quite often. Again, I like the challenge of AAR in the Viper. You're right about the HOTAS, for me the Viper system just makes a lot more sense and its not quite correct in DCS yet, but I'm sure they will get there. I LOVE the dogfight/missile override swtich on the Throttle, the ability to quickly flick from AG mode to AA mode and back again when you need to is invaluable in some situations, the Hornet feels clunky by comparison. 

 

Undoubtably the F-16 is still very WIP, I'd even say I wouldn't blame you if you held off for a while and picked it up later when it was more finished, but it is early access so that's to be expected. Its currently waiting for all the AG radar modes, Mark point integration, a better working HSD, and a few other little things. There are some flight model refinements coming and I really hope we get a pilot that can sustain 9G for more than 2 secs soon so we can actually use the F-16s agility at high speed. 

 

I fly it on the reg and really enjoy it for what it is, but its definitely WIP, If that kind of stuff frustrates you then perhapse the Hornet would be a better bet at least right now. I also really enjoy Carrier ops with the Super Carrier and the F-18. Its great seeing the deck crew running around and returning to the boat after the mission is really satifying.

 

Get both!

Edited January 6, 2021 by Deano87

[Taz1004]

I got Viper this sale because I did want a modern jet for CAP missions.  I just don't like Hornet.  Tomcat I didn't like Jester wheel.  What I really wish for is F-15 or Flanker full fidelity but that's not gonna happen.  So only thing left for me was Viper.  It's fun for doing quick A2A missions but it is in a state that pretty much only thing you can do with it is quick missions for limited engagement with limited weapons.  At least I can do CAP.

Edited January 6, 2021 by Taz1004

[Donglr]

13 hours ago, twistking said:

... And while i was quite impressed with the module, i did not completely jazz with it somehow. I think it was mainly the FCS that felt so decoupled from my inputs. Also - coming from the A-10c - the hotas integration felt so barebone and not really thought-out. ...

 

I went thru exactly the same experience. I even built a small Revell model of the F18 in anticipation of its launch but when I got into it it did not feel like what I had hoped for. Especially the HOTAS (or human-machine-interface in general) felt super bad, esp. coming from the A10, flying in VR and being used to not too often take the hand off my stick and search for the mouse. So quite disappointed by the F18. Not that it was made badly by ED or its EA state, just the bird itself didn't click with me.

Then there was the F16. I never was a fan of the F16, just another tiny fighter with small MFDs, no map, only a single engine, limited ordinance. I am an A2G person so I never considered the Viper relevant to me, "it's for those A2A guys who want to feel like the playboys of the skies". Then spring sale came along and I was so frustrated with the F18 that I just got the F16 to fill the void. I had asked around earlier how it flies and esp if the HOTAS concept is any better than the F18's. And man that was a good decision! HOTAS makes way more sense, even though I find the A10 is still ahead. It has good engine response, the engine sounds good which gives you good audio feedback. The flight model is a handful, making handling the Viper in the air or on the ground more challenging than the F18, but it also makes the bird feel alive.

In my heart I am a helicopter person. But in reality heiicopters in DCS online play matter next to nothing. So flying around for hours knowing that there is a fixed wing out there that can simply do your job better is not really satisfying. So I hop into the F16, which is the completely wrong aircraft for my kind of flying I do A2G where the F16 has limited carrying capabilities, zero loiter time, I fly slowly to preserve fuel, and it is so early access in terms of systems (JHMCS, weapons, HTS...) that it is probably the worst choice (of all the modern jets) for that kind of business. But I still enjoy it because it gives me the feeling of flying something that has character and once you master it it is a good tool.

 

Once all the weapons and systems are integrated it will be much more useful for me. Even though some weapons will never make it to the F16, like SLAM or Harpoon, others will be available, like JDAM and JSOW, and close the gap to the F18. Some are even significantly more powerful than the F18 equivalents (i.e. CBU-97/105). One simply has to be clear about her limitations: short legs, limited weapons carrying capabilities. So I have to adjust my play style  to the bird.

That is until the Apache comes out and I can finally fly what I have been really waiting for for 15 years

[Svend_Dellepude]

It's a Viper. Nuff said!

[twistking]

thanks for the replies.

i think i am ready now to move on to the f-16. but i think she is not ready for me yet, so i'll give her some more month to mature...

 

@Deano87 yes, i felt exactly like that with the landing. the viper is so much more delicate...

 

do you guys know, if the vipers HMCS will have similar capabilities to what is available on the hornet? both in AA and AG?

will the viper's ground radar have similar capabilities as well? including moving targets search?

[Sacarino111]

Hi

 Go for the viper. Can t tell why, but thw Hornet seems cold, distant... One guy I fly with call it "the snorenet"; he fells like sleeping on it. Don t get me wrong, I have it,I fly i, I like it, it does lot of things (great toy), but the F16 has something that catches me! I m afraid that at the end of the day it will have less gadgets than the F18, but to me it worth it.

Saludos.

Saca111

[Mustang25]

44 minutes ago, twistking said:

do you guys know, if the vipers HMCS will have similar capabilities to what is available on the hornet? both in AA and AG?

will the viper's ground radar have similar capabilities as well? including moving targets search?

 

being the same helmet, the capabilities should be very similar. And yes, the ground radar should also have similar abilities (including GMT) although slightly less capable since it is physically a smaller radar. I believe the viper radar only goes to EXP2 where the hornet goes up to EXP3. 
 

also, have you considered the Jeff? It has some limitations but it has a huge variety of weapons if that’s what you’re looking for. It’s got equivalents for pretty much everything, BRM90 (APKWS), CM802AK (Harpoons), CM802AKG (SLAM), LD10 (HARM), GB6SFW (JSOW-B) and even some weapons like the type 200A anti-runway bomb that you don’t see in the US arsenal. 

[twistking]

thanks for the replies!

@Mustang25 yes, on paper the jeff is fine, but for me it is just too much of a flying ipad.

i think i'm sold on the f-16 now. hopefully she is a bit better developed when the next sale comes around

[Blinky.ben]

I tried getting into the F-18 but like yourself I couldn’t get into no matter how much I tried. I painfully learnt everything it has to offer but I have deleted the F-18 now as I can’t stand flying it and I can’t really work out what it is. But as soon as I’m in the cockpit I loose all motivation to fly.

 

I fly the F-16 and JF-17 a lot. The F-16 is a great aircraft and in my opinion is good to get into right now, as it does have a fair bit to offer now that you need to learn. Plus you can learn the systems as they get released so the learning curve isn’t as much. As I’m a ground pounder mostly I really enjoy the JF-17 and at first I had the same opinion as you but as I got to learn it more I discovered it is actually one of the most complex aircraft in DCS with a lot of uniquely awesome systems onboard. Plus the weapons are rather impressive.

 

however once the F-16 starts getting some love from ED and gets more ground attack abilities it is going to be a bloody awesome ground pounder I think.
 

[wowbagger]

11 hours ago, Blinky.ben said:

I tried getting into the F-18 but like yourself I couldn’t get into no matter how much I tried. I painfully learnt everything it has to offer but I have deleted the F-18 now as I can’t stand flying it and I can’t really work out what it is. But as soon as I’m in the cockpit I loose all motivation to fly.

 

 

Exactly the same for me. The Hornet feels utterly lifeless. So many blinky lights and beeps, but it never feels like I'm sitting in the cockpit of an aircraft. 

 

I never had any interest in the Viper but last summer the sale brought it down to less than $30 so I grabbed it. I had very little expectations given the state of early release and my complete lack of interest. But I instantly and continually like it sooo much better than the Hornet.  The best view in the game! The cockpit is simple, straightforward, and functional and mostly stays out of your way. Despite FBW it produces the feeling of flying much better than the F-18 in my opinion. Folks always recommend the Hornet because it can 'do anything'. But I'd much rather have the Viper or the Tomcat because they just feel better and are nicer places to spend time in.  I really wish the Hornet wasn't the new flagship - because currently many new campaigns and missions are only focusing on the Hornet. Hopefully that will change with time.

 

Eventually I will finish Raven One (I've been on mission 2 since release week) only because it's Baltic Dragon - the campaign seems great, it's only the Hornet itself keeping me away. But right now I'm far, far more happy spending time in the Viper, the Tomcat, the helos, and a couple of warbirds.

[Taz1004]

2 hours ago, wowbagger said:

Folks always recommend the Hornet because it can 'do anything'...

 

I don't like Hornet either as I mentioned above and that probably is why.  I love F-15C.  Not so much F-15E.

[twistking]

another thing i found was that f-16c is a bit more intuitiv (easier?) to fly close formations with than the f-18. the f-16 seems to be more responsive to throttle f.e. do you feel the same?

 

again, i only tested both in the free trial, only rushed through the manual etc. so maybe this perceived difference was simply due to lack of familiarity with both aircrafts.

[wowbagger]

29 minutes ago, Taz1004 said:

 

I don't like Hornet either as I mentioned above and that probably is why.  I love F-15C.  Not so much F-15E.

 

 

By the way, I have been flying the Georgian War (F-15C) using the Viper and it works a treat and is lots of fun. I also converted the Mirage base campaign to use the Viper instead.

[Mustang25]

3 hours ago, wowbagger said:

 

 

By the way, I have been flying the Georgian War (F-15C) using the Viper and it works a treat and is lots of fun. I also converted the Mirage base campaign to use the Viper instead.

 

How does that work, are you just doing a direct replacement of the client slot for each mission? I've really been itching for a Viper campaign and eagerly awaiting Baltic Dragon's whenever he releases it.

[wowbagger]

Yep. With copy protected missions you just load them into the mission editor, make the changes, and fly straight from the editor. The only thing to watch for is when you switch the player aircraft from one type to another the mission editor has a strange habit of moving the starting parking position and you can end up spawning into a parked vehicle. So take note of the proper parking spots before you change the aircraft type, or select show all BLUE vehicles, and show Hidden to make sure you won't spawn in the middle of something.

 

The Mirage campaign and any campaign which comes with a module isn't copy protected so you can make your changes and save the missions and fly it as a normal campaign. I like to either write down the default radio frequencies or change them in the new aircraft using the mission editor - sometimes they aren't listed in the briefing or they use aircraft specific designation like 'channel 1, green radio'.  

 

I think the Viper has short legs compared to the Eagle so make sure to take plenty of tanks or manage your ingress speed, or your wingman will end up 'punching out' instead of RTBing.

[DoctorVixen]

pro: its fast.

 

cons: - full fidelity price for a clickable low fidelity flaming cliffs aircraft, not much focus from dev's either.

 

          

i shelved it and got the jeff, she is imo way more interesting in many ways atm.

Maybe u should try the jeff or maybe the f14.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 10, 2021 by DoctorVixen

[Hardcard]

I honestly don't get all that hornet hate.

Hornet is very pilot-friendly, intuitive, forgiving, packs all sorts of awesome toys, makes everything easy, etc. 

 

The only real problem it has is that it's underpowered (disappointing acceleration and top speed when carrying a standard loadout), if it weren't for that, it would be utterly OP.

 

It's also curious to see that some people find it less intuitive than the viper, in my case it was the opposite.

 

For example, I expected the viper to have a very straightforward selective jettison system (since external fuel tanks are essential), only to discover that it requires MFD interaction (navigating through menus, sacrificing either radar or HSD page), it can't be activated outside the menu... basically, it interrupts combat flow, which pisses me off.

It forces the pilot to rely on the panic button, which is problematic when carrying mixed loadouts, since it'll jettison all A/G ordinance, including HARMs.

 

The hornet, on the other hand, relies on cockpit buttons and a knob, which can be set beforehand.

So, when the moment comes, I simply press the jettison button (which can be bound to HOTAS/keyboard) and I'm done... no need to take my eyes off the bandit/terrain and sacrifice the radar/SA page. 

 

Other things that the hornet makes easy when compared to the viper: weapon selection & management, countermeasure management, TPOD operation, radar mode switching, taxiing, etc.       

 

Imho, the viper only has the following advantages over the hornet: superior speed (+ acceleration & climb rate), superior cockpit visibility, ability to mount triple racks, ability to use cbu-97s and superior countermeasure capacity.  

 

The hornet beats it in every other aspect (again, imho)

 

 

As for the "flying ipad", the only disadvantages it has when compared to the viper are: inferior speed, lack of HMD, reduced cockpit visibility, crappy gun that needs to be fed, inferior ordinance capacity and inferior countermeasure capacity.

 

The rest are advantages: better active missiles, better HSD, larger MFDs (and 3 instead of 2), some of the best A/G toys in DCS, simpler weapon management, etc.

Edited January 12, 2021 by Hardcard

[Taz1004]

24 minutes ago, Hardcard said:

Imho, the viper only has the following advantages over the hornet: superior speed (+ acceleration & climb rate), superior cockpit visibility, ability to mount triple racks, ability to use cbu-97s and superior countermeasure storage capacity.  

 

You pretty much summed up my reason for choosing Viper.

If this was like buying a car, I probably would've chose Hornet.  Like buying a station wagon or minivan.  Both utility and versatile.

But if I have no limit in virtual world, I'm getting a Ferrari and a big pickup truck (A10C).

 

I'm just trying to sell the Viper as the OP requested. 

[Blinky.ben]

48 minutes ago, Hardcard said:

I honestly don't get all that hornet hate.

Hornet is very pilot-friendly, intuitive, forgiving, packs all sorts of awesome toys, makes everything easy, etc. 

 

The only real problem it has is that it's underpowered (disappointing acceleration and top speed when carrying a standard loadout), if it weren't for that, it would be utterly OP.

 

It's also curious to see that some people find it less intuitive than the viper, in my case it was the opposite.

 

For example, I expected the viper to have a very straightforward selective jettison system (since external fuel tanks are essential), only to discover that it requires MFD interaction (navigating through menus, sacrificing either radar or HSD page), it can't be activated outside the menu... basically, it interrupts combat flow, which pisses me off.

It forces the pilot to rely on the panic button, which is problematic when carrying mixed loadouts, since it'll jettison all A/G ordinance, including HARMs.

 

The hornet, on the other hand, relies on cockpit buttons and a knob, which can be set beforehand.

So, when the moment comes, I simply press the jettison button (which can be bound to HOTAS/keyboard) and I'm done... no need to take my eyes off the bandit/terrain and sacrifice the radar/SA page. 

 

Other things that the hornet makes easy when compared to the viper: weapon selection & management, countermeasure management, TPOD operation, radar mode switching, taxiing, etc.       

 

Imho, the viper only has the following advantages over the hornet: superior speed (+ acceleration & climb rate), superior cockpit visibility, ability to mount triple racks, ability to use cbu-97s and superior countermeasure storage capacity.  

 

The hornet beats it in every other aspect (again, imho)

But thats the point “EASY” which for some people they love that for a lot of others they don’t like feeling like a technician telling a computer where to send the plane. The only reason it’s not a UAV is because a pilot sits in it. 
but in real world I’m sure a heavily automated flight system is a great asset. However even the guys that came from the F-14’s to the F-18’s even said their flying skills definitely where better then the guys that only new how to fly F-18’s.

 

As for the TGP well I have to completely disagree here. I am mostly a ground pounder and I learnt the Su-25T then the A-10c. After that I learnt the F-18 and found the TGP the most horrible experience so I left the F-18 alone. I kept trying to get back into it over time as a good mate of mine only flys the F-18 but as soon as I starting ground attacks with the TGP I instantly hated how it worked. I am now fairly good at the F-16 and JF-17 and I still find the F-18 TGP the most horrible experience and I’m always behind the other guys. Sense the HMD update it changed a lot of problems I had with it but it is now completely bugged so I guess I’m just never supposed to like the F-18.

 

Just to point out tho no one actually said the F-18 is total crap we’re just saying that we do not like it. But some people hate how the F-14 flys where as I love it.

[Hardcard]

11 minutes ago, Taz1004 said:

If this was like buying a car, I probably would've chose Hornet.  Like buying a station wagon or minivan.  Both utility and versatile.

But if I have no limit in virtual world, I'm getting a Ferrari and a big pickup truck (A10C).

 

 

A stripped down hornet (no wing pylons, ~50% fuel) is practically as fast as the viper in DCS... quite the ferrari 

You definitely don't want to face one of those in combat (even less now that the hornet is finally getting ECM, which will render TWS useless). 

 

As for the warthog, it's an excellent CAS platform, but it lacks standoff weapons, requires fighter escort and it's slower than a P-51.

It can't compete with hornet, viper or jeff when it comes to pounding heavily defended bases in the presence of enemy CAP... I love it, though.

[Taz1004]

37 minutes ago, Hardcard said:

 

A stripped down hornet (no wing pylons, ~50% fuel) is practically as fast as the viper in DCS... quite the ferrari 

You definitely don't want to face one of those in combat (even less now that the hornet is finally getting ECM, which will render TWS useless). 

 

As for the warthog, it's an excellent CAS platform, but it lacks standoff weapons, requires fighter escort and it's slower than a P-51.

It can't compete with hornet, viper or jeff when it comes to pounding heavily defended bases in the presence of enemy CAP... I love it, though.

 

I can strip down my minivan too.  Doesn't really make it a Ferrari tho.  

Why would A10C want to compete with Hornet?  I think you may be missing the point.

[Hardcard]

27 minutes ago, Blinky.ben said:

But thats the point “EASY” which for some people they love that for a lot of others they don’t like feeling like a technician telling a computer where to send the plane. The only reason it’s not a UAV is because a pilot sits in it.

 

The hornet needs to be flown and operated just like the viper or the jeff (they all have fly-by-wire), there's nothing special about the hornet that singles it out in this regard.

If it's almost a UAV, then the viper and the jeff are too, since those also use flight computers.

 

 

40 minutes ago, Blinky.ben said:

As for the TGP well I have to completely disagree here. I am mostly a ground pounder and I learnt the Su-25T then the A-10c. After that I learnt the F-18 and found the TGP the most horrible experience so I left the F-18 alone. I kept trying to get back into it over time as a good mate of mine only flys the F-18 but as soon as I starting ground attacks with the TGP I instantly hated how it worked. I am now fairly good at the F-16 and JF-17 and I still find the F-18 TGP the most horrible experience and I’m always behind the other guys. Sense the HMD update it changed a lot of problems I had with it but it is now completely bugged so I guess I’m just never supposed to like the F-18.

 

Come on, the viper's TPOD doesn't even have proper snowplow or vector modes, it's a PITA just to reset it, HUD indicators are off, it's still barebones... so painful that I don't even equip it.  

If you find the hornet's TPOD harder to operate/more annoying than that, you must be doing something wrong . 

 

I also learned the TPOD with the warthog, which is why I approximated the hornet's TPOD controls as much as I could (mapping OSB buttons in a matching way, when possible).

By the time I was done, there wasn't much of a difference, I'd even say that my TPOD mappings for the hornet ended up being simpler, allowing for quicker operation.

 

As for the jeff's TPOD, I only used it briefly during the free month event last year, so I don't really have an informed opinion... I do recall that it couldn't be ground stabilized from long ranges, which was a bummer. 

[Hardcard]

34 minutes ago, Taz1004 said:

 

I can strip down my minivan too.  Doesn't really make it a Ferrari tho.  

 

 

Your minivan can't do mach 1.6, no matter how much you strip it 

 

 

 

36 minutes ago, Taz1004 said:

Why would A10C want to compete with Hornet?  I think you may be missing the point.

 

No reason, I just pointed out that the warthog is a niche aircraft with annoying limitations