Maximum range of R-27ER in DCS

[BlackPixxel]

3 hours ago, GGTharos said:

You probably cannot even use it that way, the missiles need to tune to the radar channel before launch, and radar channels are pre-set on the ground to avoid interference.  Sure, you could agree on having a mutual channel and tune up your missiles if the opportunity presented itself ... when will it?

 

You can change the radar operation channel AND the missile illumination channel (two independend things) during flight using the following selectors:

 

"LITERA 27 I 33" is the selector for the missile illumination channel. So you can indeed switch to the channel of your wingmen during flight. Only the channel on the missile itself is set on the ground.

 

But what is much more interesting:

While in the manual of the export Su-27SK the switch has the label "LITERA 27", here in our domestic Su-27S and also in the Su-33 the switch has the label "LITERA 27 I 33".

 

So it looks like the implementation of the R-33 on the Su-27 was at least planned at some point.

Edited January 11, 2021 by BlackPixxel

[Cmptohocah]

8 hours ago, BlackPixxel said:

...So you can indeed switch to the channel of your wingmen during flight...

 

This was also described in the MiG-29A (export version) manual and was also utilized by the airforce pilots of the, back then, Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

Here is a MiG-29 pilot talking about this procedure (in serbian language):

 

But I guess it's easier to come to the forum and say "yeah that's not possible/practical and it didn't happen".

 

[GGTharos]

14 hours ago, BlackPixxel said:

You can change the radar operation channel AND the missile illumination channel (two independend things) during flight using the following selectors:

 

 

Yep, that's pretty common - but the settings are set on the ground.  

 

14 hours ago, BlackPixxel said:

"LITERA 27 I 33" is the selector for the missile illumination channel. So you can indeed switch to the channel of your wingmen during flight. Only the channel on the missile itself is set on the ground.

 

Can you get more information on the missile channel?  The missile is usually tuned by the WCS itself, and this includes the flanker ... so what are they setting on the ground exactly?

5 hours ago, Cmptohocah said:

This was also described in the MiG-29A (export version) manual and was also utilized by the airforce pilots of the, back then, Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

Here is a MiG-29 pilot talking about this procedure (in serbian language):

 

But I guess it's easier to come to the forum and say "yeah that's not possible/practical and it didn't happen".

 

 

No, what's 'easy' is to find the one anecdote that supports your desire for this to be 'an important feature' (where it is actually just a common thing to all radars), and ignore all the reasons why it isn't done.

[Cmptohocah]

22 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

...Can you get more information on the missile channel?  The missile is usually tuned by the WCS itself, and this includes the flanker ... so what are they setting on the ground exactly?

 

No, what's 'easy' is to find the one anecdote that supports your desire for this to be 'an important feature' (where it is actually just a common thing to all radars), and ignore all the reasons why it isn't done.

I really don't understand what you meant to say by this, but the fact remains that this feature is:

• described in the real manual used by real fighter pilots
• mentioned by a real fighter pilot who flew professionally on a Soviet-made MiG-29

I simply mentioned that this is one of the real-life features that would be nice to have. Then you swoop in and start commenting about how useless it is. Useless or not, it exists. I mean with all due respect, but who are you to deem it useless? And even if it is, it's no argument to not have it. Real thing has it, DCS thing should have it, IMHO.

[GGTharos]

2 minutes ago, Cmptohocah said:

I really don't understand what you meant to say by this, but the fact remains that this feature is:

• described in the real manual used by real fighter pilots
• mentioned by a real fighter pilot who flew professionally on a Soviet-made MiG-29

I simply mentioned that this is one of the real-life features that would be nice to have. Then you swoop in and start commenting about how useless it is. Useless or not, it exists. I mean with all due respect, but who are you to deem it useless? And even if it is, it's no argument to not have it. Real thing has it, DCS thing should have it, IMHO.

 

This 'feature' is available on every radar in existence.  You can use it.  It is deliberately avoided for the reasons mentioned.  DCS could have it by somehow treating the radar channels like the treat laser codes now, but I wouldn't expect it to appear in FC3 this decade and I doubt they'd add it until they can simulate the actual massive problems it causes.

Edited January 11, 2021 by GGTharos

[Ironhand]

On 1/7/2021 at 8:31 PM, Ironhand said:

Unfortunately, I’m not in a position to check...but doesn’t the Su-27 manual indicate that you should delay launching until the range marker has passed a certain distance below the R-Max mark? I could have sworn I saw it in there somewhere.

And, so, almost a week later I accidentally tripped across the text I was referring to while looking for something else:

 

”5.14.1. Issues to consider when executing missions

...

3. The launching of R-27R1 missiles in Rear Hemisphere (ЗПС) comes with the following range limitations:
 If the launch altitude is less than 3 km, then the launch distance is less than or equal to 3 km.
 If the launch altitude is greater than 3 km, then the launch distance is RMax (Др max 1) minus 2 km.

...

 

5. The launching of R-27ER1 missiles in Rear Hemisphere comes with the following range limitations:
 If the launch altitude is less than 3 km, then the launch distance is ≤ 6 km.
 If the launch altitude is equal to or greater than 3 km, then the launch
distance is RMax (Др max 1) minus 2 km.”

 

So it was referring to a specific situation rather than being a more general caveat.

 

Edited January 13, 2021 by Ironhand

[BlackPixxel]

Quite an odd recommendation, but I highly doubt it is related to kinematic range, especially since no speed parameters are given.

 

Rear hemisphere is the whole area behind the targets 3/9 line. I am sure the R-27R will way fly further than 3 km if the target is for example engaged at a 120° aspect.

 

The fact that it is only about the radar guided variants and not about the IR ones (R-27T/ET, R-73) makes me think it might be seeker related? But even then, R-27R and R-27ER should have roughly the same seeker limitations.

Edited January 14, 2021 by BlackPixxel

[Ironhand]

11 hours ago, BlackPixxel said:

Quite an odd recommendation, but I highly doubt it is related to kinematic range, especially since no speed parameters are given.

 

...

 

Agreed. I was wondering if it had more to do with the vagaries of range measurement in ЗПС.

Edited January 14, 2021 by Ironhand
Correct spelling to actually make a word.

[GGTharos]

The launch zone calculation might not be taking all factors into account.   This wouldn't be the first system that has an imperfect DLZ.

[Skysurfer]

The current 27R/ER match the published graphs and flyout charts EXACTLY for straight line shots and non-maneuvering targets. The manual specifically states that in the case of the target maneuvering or changing its speed these zones will change accordingly. Whether they bleed too much energy while turning for a defending target is a question of CFD and smoother guidence at this point. The ranges in said graphs are Rmax/aero afaik as they take the taget speeds and no evasive maneuvers into account. 

Edited February 21, 2021 by Skysurfer

[dundun92]

45 minutes ago, Skysurfer said:

The ranges in said graphs are Rmax/aero

According to a RuAF pilot on the forums they are not Raero, they allow for 2-3G maneuvering; whether this is referencing just endgame or the entire TOF im not sure, but needless to say these arent Raero:

 

[Skysurfer]

4 minutes ago, dundun92 said:

According to a RuAF pilot on the forums they are not Raero, they allow for 2-3G maneuvering; whether this is referencing just endgame or the entire TOF im not sure, but needless to say these arent Raero:

 

 

Interesting, sicne the manual specifically states no maneuvering.

[FoxAlfa]

53 minutes ago, Skysurfer said:

 

Interesting, sicne the manual specifically states no maneuvering.

Yes, but the manual is guideline for the pilot with some engineering safety build-it in... not a wind tunnel stall graph... you wouldn't expect pilot to take account wind, temperature or other factors and do complex math during combat to account for them, so you build that safety in.

Edited February 21, 2021 by FoxAlfa

[GGTharos]

56 minutes ago, Skysurfer said:

Interesting, sicne the manual specifically states no maneuvering.

 

This is the ability of the missile to maneuver.   Even if the target is not maneuvering, the missile needs to be able to correct for natural trajectory departures, seeker errors etc.