Flight Model Characteristics - Will I be disappointed?

[Hiob]

Actually I find the flight models and character of the Hip and Huey quite similar. Sure the Huey is al lot lighter and therefore more nimble but it also lacks of power.

The Hip is heavier and bigger but has a lot(!) more power to it.

Both FM "feel" very good and "realistic" (never flew a real heli obviously)!

I fly them pretty much in turns and find it neither difficult to fly calm and steady in the Huey nor very agressively with the Hip.

 

In contrast I don't like the "syntetic" FM of the Gazelle and haven't figured out yet how to fly the Black Shark (though I'd love to).

[F1000Starfire]

On 2/22/2021 at 7:09 AM, Lurker said:

 

I have no idea how that FM relates to the helicopter FMs in DCS World, but I think it's safe to assume that it's not close to the level of detail on flight models we do get in DCS World.

 

The DI version (25 years old) claims they model VRS & RBS  and cross-coupling, but even at very slow forward speed the helicopter seems pretty stable in pitch and roll.

At high speed it flies like a fixed wing. I haven't tried to hover yet.

I haven't tried any DCS helicopters yet, my yardstick is FSX with HTR, I plan to buy the Huey next time it comes on sale and of course the Hind, but maybe after the bugs have been ironed out. 

[Lurker]

17 hours ago, F1000Starfire said:

The DI version (25 years old) claims they model VRS & RBS  and cross-coupling, but even at very slow forward speed the helicopter seems pretty stable in pitch and roll.

At high speed it flies like a fixed wing. I haven't tried to hover yet.

I haven't tried any DCS helicopters yet, my yardstick is FSX with HTR, I plan to buy the Huey next time it comes on sale and of course the Hind, but maybe after the bugs have been ironed out. 

 

The Mi8 is very stable in all regimes of flight, since the Mi24 shares the same automatic stability systems it's to be expected that it too will behave in a similar fashion. I have no idea how helicopters handle in other flight sims, but if you're into choppers you really should buy one in DCS World. You can't go wrong with either (not sure about the Gazelle as I don't own it)

Edited February 24, 2021 by Lurker

[Lucas_From_Hell]

You are correct, but with the caveat that while the Mi-8 crabs at high speeds, the Mi-24 flies straight to improve forward-firing weapon accuracy.

[S. Low]

Wait, the mi-8 is getting a graphics update? But what about my Huey? *somber fortunate son music*

[S. Low]

On 2/13/2021 at 1:18 PM, Focha said:

Why the internet is broken?

Because everyone seems to write "things" like facts.

 

 

I laugh my self out reading some "things" around here about helicopters.

Seems like good opportunities to educate rather than ridicule

[Sabre_Ewan]

1 hour ago, Relic said:

Wait, the mi-8 is getting a graphics update? But what about my Huey? *somber fortunate son music*

 

Nobody else seemed to notice so I must have imagined it, but in the Reach For The Skies video there was a clip of Huey cockpit and it looked much higher res than mine does. Mine looks awful!

[VampireNZ]

By all accounts the Mi-8 has a very 'realistic' flight model. Personally I like it but I have never flown one IRL so can't comment. Until someone actually compares the Mi-24 FM to actual data then we won't know how good it is, but will have a general idea if if 'feels' good.

 

The Gazelle is an interesting example - as there are plenty here on he forum whose mates brothers first cousins uncle is a Gazelle pilot and reckons the DCS Gazelle flight model is spot-on. Then you have someone actually go and compare the FM to real flight test data - and the DCS aircraft bears no resemblance to any aspect of the real aircrafts performance or handling whatsoever, check YT vid below - very interesting analysis. As stated in the vid - this is not to have a go at PC, as they are a WIP with their FM, but just a word of caution when these pilots give their 'opinion' of the aircraft FM in DCS.

 

 

[scoobie]

On 3/9/2021 at 8:23 PM, VampireNZ said:

there are plenty here on he forum whose mates brothers first cousins uncle is a Gazelle pilot and reckons the DCS Gazelle flight model is spot-on. Then you have someone actually go and compare the FM to real flight test data - and the DCS aircraft bears no resemblance to any aspect of the real aircrafts performance or handling whatsoever

I know it's not exactly the subject of this discussion, but you touched an important point that some people don't seem to notice. It's been an issue for a few decades now.
Since everyone hates long posts, I'll make it short...

A RL pilot, by the very fact that he/she is a RL pilot, is NOT a good "judge" to assess the qualities of a flight simulator. It's a common fallacy.
Only a RL pilot who is also an aware/conscious/savvy flight simmer is such good judge.
So, if you have an opinion from a RL pilot who doesn't play flight sims, you must take may consider taking their opinions with a grain of salt. Or better - with a boulder of salt.

 

Edited March 12, 2021 by scoobie

[Ramsay]

2 hours ago, scoobie said:

So, if you have an opinion from a RL pilot who doesn't play flight sims, you must take may consider taking their opinions with a grain of salt. Or better - with a boulder of salt.

Funny, that more or less summarises PC's initial responses when receiving FM feedback from RL helicopter pilots i.e. they had flown the "wrong type" of helicopter/gazelle and DCS's gazelle was 'special'.

 

In the case of DCS's helicopters - there are control response and stability tests done on the real aircraft i.e. that reveal missing effects like LTE due to adverse crosswind or an AoA gauge that RL pilots use to determine when the helicopter (Mi-8) will go light on it's wheels/skids, that don't match up in DCS.

AFAIK ED have implied they don't see the need to "needlessly" improve their flight modelling over and above that seen in the Ka-50/UH-1/Mi-8 which is fair enough (as they've been pretty well received), however it's also why I'm more excited by PC's Kiowa than the Mi-24 which promises "more of the same" which IMHO is both a good and bad thing.

Edited March 12, 2021 by Ramsay

[Lurker]

46 minutes ago, Ramsay said:

Funny, that more or less summarises PC's initial responses when receiving FM feedback from RL helicopter pilots i.e. they had flown the "wrong type" of helicopter/gazelle and DCS's gazelle was 'special'.

 

In the case of DCS's helicopters - there are control response and stability tests done on the real aircraft i.e. that reveal missing effects like LTE due to adverse crosswind or an AoA gauge that RL pilots use to determine when the helicopter (Mi-8) will go light on it's wheels/skids, that don't match up in DCS.

AFAIK ED have implied they don't see the need to "needlessly" improve their flight modelling over and above that seen in the Ka-50/UH-1/Mi-8 which is fair enough (as they've been pretty well received), however it's also why I'm more excited by PC's Kiowa than the Mi-24 which promises "more of the same" which IMHO is both a good and bad thing.

 

 

Where and how did you get the impression that PC's Kiowa flight model is going to be "better" than the Eagle Dynamics rotary wing modules? 

Edited March 12, 2021 by Lurker

[hisothiro]

3 hours ago, Ramsay said:

AFAIK ED have implied they don't see the need to "needlessly" improve their flight modelling over and above that seen in the Ka-50/UH-1/Mi-8 which is fair enough (as they've been pretty well received), however it's also why I'm more excited by PC's Kiowa than the Mi-24 which promises "more of the same" which IMHO is both a good and bad thing.

 

I'm at a loss here. How is it a "bad" thing that ED keeps the same flight modelling standard from other rotary wing modules? Their helos are universally praised as the best throughout all flight simulators. I really do not understand how that standard can be criticized, so maybe I'm missing something here.

[M1Combat]

Well...  And please keep in mind that the Shark is my favorite flight sim toy of all time.  I think well thought out, pointed, and data driven criticism is always of benefit :).  But yeah... The current state of DCS rotary wing FM is pretty damn good if you ask me.

 

Also...  To Ramsay...

I'm not sure how you could possibly be more excited about a release from PC than from DCS.  If PC makes some VERY significant improvement then sure... but if not...  No from me.  And that's a damn shame because it's HIGHLY unlikely that if PC eff's up the Kiowa (like they have with the gazelle) that anyone will ever create another.  So we'll just be stuck with a bad Kiowa.  The Kiowa...  When mixed with a good APache...  could be the most fun available in DCS.  I'm excited for that possibility...  but I'm quite skeptical of that turning into reality.

 

I do wish them luck.  Honestly...  I'm not even super concerned that it "matches" all the numbers if they get close...

 

It just needs to feel like a helicopter.

[Ramsay]

21 hours ago, hisothiro said:

I'm at a loss here. How is it a "bad" thing that ED keeps the same flight modelling standard from other rotary wing modules? Their helos are universally praised as the best throughout all flight simulators. I really do not understand how that standard can be criticized, so maybe I'm missing something here.

As it's not allowed on these forums to compare DCS's helicopters to those in other sims, you *may* not have all the information when saying ED's "helos are universally praised".

 

IMHO ED's helicopter FM's are good but not without their flaws e.g. the huey's collective and pitch/roll cross coupling is reversed, available power is wrong, LTE is missing so it's twice as stable (+40kts) in an adverse crosswind than RL, etc.

 

While it's good ED plan to maintain their FM quality in the M-24, I would have liked ED to take the opportunity to iterate on their previous FM's and improve on them - I fear this is a "new team" that's been given a "quality standard" and told to work within existing limitations.

How well this conservative/production line approach works will mostly depend the amount/quality of SME feedback that ED have available, rather than FM limitations i.e. most DCS players seem content with the existing FM's and either "buy" into ED's hype or at least except the limitations.

I just don't find ED's conservative approach as "exciting" as PC's unproven Hummingbird FM that potentially models LTE, etc. YMMV

[S. Low]

I haven’t played every sim in existence, but I’ve played quite a few and have yet to find a match to ED’s FM’s. They are wizards.

 

There’s a popular sim out there that is considered the standard amongst civilian training that I need to try once it goes back on sale. But I still get the sense that we are entering into the nitpicking realm because EDs work is so phenomenal.

 

The Kiowa is nearing release supposedly and PC hasn’t even gotten the dimensions of the smoke grenades/m4 on dash correct yet. I don’t like being so critical of these guys but the Kiowa is a big deal to me and a lot of people.

 

anyways, off topic.

 

Just watching wags fly the hind around Latakia has me pumped 

[Isegrim]

I dont think that the Flight model of the Mi 24 will disappoint us.

 

It "can"....yes this "can" happen but i simply dont see why it would.

 

 

[M1Combat]

@Ramsay

Yeah...  PC have said they have a new FM that's the bee's knees...  I hope it is...  For sure...

 

I'll hold off until I hear from others.

 

 

As far as any "issues" with the DCS model...  Yeah I mean nothing is perfect for sure, and I'm not sure anyone here said it was either perfect or the best ever made...  Maybe...  but I don't recall.

 

The important bit though is that the flight model feel right to 98% of people.  If you have to go looking for problems in a scientific way after confirming that it feels right...  Well...  Feel free but I don't care that much.  Certainly worthy of an acknowledgement and of effort put in to correct...  but if you have to hunt for the problem then it's not a big deal.  By definition that means it feels right 99% of the time.  Yes...  I like it to be 100%...  don't get me wrong...  but trying to say that you'd rather have PC's new model over a release from ED is a HUGE leap of faith based on hype about PC's new FM IMO...

 

Let us know if it's good when it releases :).

[StevanJ]

 

The strenghs and weaknesses of the Hind..

[Northstar98]

2 hours ago, Desert Fox said:

Brilliant walkaround, loved every minute. Thanks a lot for posting!

 

OT, but that channel is absolutely brilliant for these, I highly recommend checking them out.

Edited March 20, 2021 by Northstar98

[SmukY]

Another 'demonstration' of Mi-24's agility from '99 in Chechnya
 

 

It starts from 3:31 on. Prominent 'not giving a f*ck' attitude

Edited March 21, 2021 by SmukY

[Rick50]

 

A very long time ago I read an article about some Yankees who got the opportunity to ride in Hinds from an East Block country (Czech Poland or Hungarian?) for the first time ever, as the Berlin Wall came down just months before.  They were surprised that is was WAY more sluggish at low speeds than they expected... but they were also surprised at how agile and maneuverable it was when at high speeds! It was the opposite of what they'd expected... and then the understanding of why HINDs were seen not doing hover attacks from beHIND trees, but doing high speed straffing attacks much like in a WW2 engagement.

[Lurker]

I wish Wags would do another video on the Hind, maybe even a small series of videos, with the new 2.7 tech demonstrating some of the quirks of the helicopter. Maybe even some low level attack runs that the mi24P is so famous for. 

All these videos of the F18 and the F16 he does every now and again, I watch them all (just to check the beautiful new clouds) but other than that they are extremely boring. (But probably very easy and quick to produce). I wouldn't even mind seeing some unfinished stuff and bugs, at least we would get an idea how close we are to release.  

[S. Low]

On 3/20/2021 at 7:29 PM, SmukY said:

Another 'demonstration' of Mi-24's agility from '99 in Chechnya
 

 

It starts from 3:31 on. Prominent 'not giving a f*ck' attitude

 

Look at this glorious dragonfly of rocket spewing awesomeness. Gimme.

[Focha]

On 2/26/2021 at 2:26 PM, Relic said:

Seems like good opportunities to educate rather than ridicule

 

And I do it a lot my friend. I did it, in particular, when I had my comments on the Gazelle in the Polychop section. The problem is that today it seems that there is no humility to learn. And people write things in the internet like they are facts. It is, what is it, I know. But rather than being a question of ridicule something, I just like to point out that people in general should be more careful when writing something in a forum like it is a matter of fact. Specifically those who do not have background on the subject matter.

I am sorry that you interpreted my post as a ridicule, not my intention, but language is also a barrier.

Regards

[Dangerzone]

Well... here I am half a year later and I purchased the Hind so I can now answer my own question...

 

For the enjoyment I get in the Huey - the Hind can not replicate. The Huey is far more nimble, and fly by the seat of my pants - there is no doubt about that. 

 

However - in saying that - I am finding that I'm loving the challenge of the hind. It is not nimble - but in the same sense - if treated with respect I can get it to do a bit more than I first thought. It is however extremely easy to get into VRS - but I'm pleased to say that I am not disappointed in my purchase and I'm learning to enjoy her for what she is. 

 

She's no replacement for the Huey - but it does a great job at complementing. Where the Huey falls, the Hind excells. Where the Hind falls, the Huey excels. She'll never replace the UH-1... but as long as I don't look for that in my mind - I'm happy.

 

Maybe one day there will be a helicopter with the best of both worlds but for now - I'm enjoying the diversity even though it's not what first got me into air beaters!