Flight Model Characteristics - Will I be disappointed?

[Dangerzone]

I recall reading that the Mi-8 is the best helicopter to 'practice' on for the upcoming Hind helicopter.

 

Well, I gave the 8 a try during the free-to-fly period (I own all the others), and I just didn't find it enjoyable to fly at all. I know that it's more like a bus from what I've read (and now experienced), but it got me wondering - does the Hind's flight model closely mimic the Mi-8? Will I have to fly the hind around like a bus as well?

 

And/or- are there people who enjoy the Mi-8 now, but when they first started found it disappointing or not fun to fly, but it grew on them with time, or is it more of a 'you'll either like or hate it' regardless of the time spent in it?

 

My concern is that the Hind is different to my expectations now and that it'll end up being basically the Mi-8 with armor, and weapons, and I'm just chasing clarification if the suggestion to practice on the 8 reflects the similar flight model?

 

FWIW - I want flight enjoyment first, capabilities second. That's why the UH-1 is my favorite helicopter, even though it's the worst for combat... simply the way it flies. 

 

(Note - this isn't a question as to whether the Hind will be a disappointing product - I'm expecting it will be the opposite, I'm just trying to get a 'feel' for it for my own personal preferences after flying the Mi-8).

Edited January 5, 2021 by Dangerzone

[kengou]

The Hind is designed differently than the Mi-8 in some ways. It’s got wings and it’s got a slimmer profile. It’s going to be much much faster. It’s an attack helicopter after all, not a transport/utility helo. But in other ways, it won’t be as nimble as an Apache of Kiowa. It has a transport cabin and its heavy for an attack helo. It’s not that nimble to turn. It will be fast in straight lines but may have difficulty hovering or turning because of the wings.

 

I think it’ll be unique enough from the Mi-8 in flight model. The Hip is good practice because of the avionics and cockpit layout, not so much because of the flight model.

[Sceptre]

it's extremely fast in a straight line (190knots+) and turns like an aircraft carrier at speed. it's not nimble at all, but this is just part of its charm

[Lurker]

I enjoy the Mi-8 flight model. It's very stable in flight, does what it's told as long as you have some translational velocity. However it is a very challenging helo to land if you just want to bring it down out of a hover. I think the Mi-24 will probably be quite similar in how it handles, hopefully it's a little more manageable at slow speeds and less of a VRS monster waiting to bite you on the behind but I wouldn't hold my breath on that. 

Edited January 5, 2021 by Lurker

[Art-J]

With empty Hind being even heavier than empty Hip, not to mention "tiny" Huey (8.5'ish vs 2.5'ish metric tons), I'd say it's probably going to be a bus with guns indeed, though a very fast bus.

 

Whenever I saw them in the past on various airshows, they were usually presented in typical low-level fast attack scenarios (which corresponds to Syria footage on YT). Even if they performed some maneuvers, they kinda looked like dancing whales ;).

 

I guess If you want to exploit DCS flight model loopholes, you will be able to pull off some crazy $hit, unrealistic maneuvers, just like you can in the Mi-8, but otherwise, it's just not going to be a nimble machine I reckon.

Edited January 5, 2021 by Art-J

[МаксиM]

real pilots say: "It is as easy to fly on the Mi-24 as walking on a tightrope." The blades of the Mi-24 are also shorter than those of the Mi-8, and therefore the blades often fall into the stall, so that the control of the Mi24 and Mi8 is different.

[Ramsay]

8 hours ago, МаксиM said:

The blades of the Mi-24 are also shorter than those of the Mi-8, and therefore the blades often fall into the stall, so that the control of the Mi24 and Mi8 is different.

 

Do you have a source for that ?

 

A smaller main rotor means the Mi-24 has to push out the same volume/mass of air faster (assuming Mi-8 and Mi-24 are similar weights) and is therefore less susceptible to VRS or do you mean something different when you say "stall" ?

 

[МаксиM]

7 hours ago, Ramsay said:

Do you have a source for that ?

saw an interview with a Mi-24 pilot

7 hours ago, Ramsay said:

mean something different when you say "stall" ?

at high speeds in helicopters, the blades that have the largest angle of attack are susceptible to stalling, while the helicopter begins to rise to one side

[Ramsay]

51 minutes ago, МаксиM said:

saw an interview with a Mi-24 pilot

at high speeds in helicopters, the blades that have the largest angle of attack are susceptible to stalling, while the helicopter begins to rise to one side

 

Got it, if you are talking of dissymmetry of lift, retreating blade stall, etc.

 

https://youtu.be/iPyUZLV8duM?t=288

 

[Mogster]

On 1/5/2021 at 2:57 PM, Art-J said:

With empty Hind being even heavier than empty Hip, not to mention "tiny" Huey (8.5'ish vs 2.5'ish metric tons), I'd say it's probably going to be a bus with guns indeed, though a very fast bus.

 

Whenever I saw them in the past on various airshows, they were usually presented in typical low-level fast attack scenarios (which corresponds to Syria footage on YT). Even if they performed some maneuvers, they kinda looked like dancing whales ;).

 

I guess If you want to exploit DCS flight model loopholes, you will be able to pull off some crazy $hit, unrealistic maneuvers, just like you can in the Mi-8, but otherwise, it's just not going to be a nimble machine I reckon.

 

Exactly. There’s a video online of a Czech Mi24 at UK RIAT, it’s very impressive and the thing has serious stage presence, but clearly this isn’t a nimble aircraft, mostly the manoeuvres performed are fast straight passes similar to a fixed wing.

 

Anyone expecting agility, and there will be many, are going to be very very disappointed...

[Lucas_From_Hell]

Leaving this here

 

[Phantom_Mark]

Slightly unrelated, but just because they look awesome, check out these versions  
 

 

[Dangerzone]

Thanks all for the responses. I think I now have my expectations set a little more realistic. Very much appreciated!

[Lurker]

12 hours ago, Lucas_From_Hell said:

Leaving this here

 

 

It's certainly capable of performing impressive maneuvers, just not very quickly compared to lighter helicopters. I wonder if I'll ever be that proficient with it in DCS

[molevitch]

12 hours ago, Lucas_From_Hell said:

Leaving this here

 

I love this video, and have watched it and others from the same sources often. The Mi-24 is a big beast, with the inertia of its tonnage, but in the hands of a skilled pilot, it is pretty agile, as seen here. There will be lots of provisos and cautions about what not to do or try, but I am sure we will be enthusiastically pushing the envelope. I find the Mi-8 in DCS is a lot more nimble than is usually to be expected of a craft of its size, and hopefully gives an indication of what to expect from ED’s Mi-24.

[kengou]

Once the Alien livery is created in DCS I doubt I'll use anything else. Best livery I've ever seen for any aircraft.

[Phantom_Mark]

1 hour ago, kengou said:

Once the Alien livery is created in DCS I doubt I'll use anything else. Best livery I've ever seen for any aircraft.

It fits the aircraft very well, looks pretty awesome I agree

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

13 hours ago, molevitch said:

I find the Mi-8 in DCS is a lot more nimble than is usually to be expected of a craft of its size

IRL it is as well, apparently

[Cheetah7798]

TL;DR: Fly it, even if you dislike it, and eventually it'll come round. Or don't; Up to you.

 

On 1/5/2021 at 2:01 PM, Dangerzone said:

I know that it's more like a bus

Yes and no. I don't know if you've ever flown the Mi-8 unloaded in DCS, but that thing has more energy than in ought to based on its size and looks. You touch the collective and it practically springs into the sky. Also, with the exception of poor transitions to hover, it never seemed to run out of 'give' when I'd performed short-sighted manoeuvres that should have ended in a flaming wreak.

 

Also note, flying the Mi-8 with weapons on all 6 pylons doesn't lend itself to being agile. If you're flying the thing with 6 full S-8 pods, it'll feel like a bus. IRL, you rarely see them with more than a single pair of pods, or occasionally, a set of S-8s and UPK-250s (a la the Mi-8 loading screen).

 

On 1/5/2021 at 2:01 PM, Dangerzone said:

Are there people who enjoy the Mi-8 now, but when they first started found it disappointing or not fun to fly, but it grew on them with time, or is it more of a 'you'll either like or hate it' regardless of the time spent in it?

I held a decent amount of disdain for helicopters in general in DCS, until I put the time in to actually learn how to treat them and employ them properly. The Mi-8 was no exception. Since my first rotorcraft was the Ka-50 (arguably the staple for flight stability in DCS helicopters), transitioning to the Mi-8 was like getting slapped in the face and being told I didn't know how to fly helicopters, and never did.

 

Long story short, merely spending time with the Mi-8 breeds a certain level of understanding and respect for its capabilities. Now I really enjoy it; And, to put it into perspective, I started flying the UH-1H long after the Mi-8, and my initial opinion was reversed to yours. I didn't enjoy the Huey's 'instability', for lack of a better term. It was always yawing or bobbing or slipping. It didn't want to fly fast and when you made it, it didn't like you, ramping up the yawing, bobbing and slipping to 11 until you brought it back down to a reasonable speed. I get it, it's a very 'raw' helicopter experience. No level of assistance like the Mil or Kamov. Some people go in for that, and in time maybe I will; But, for now I just find it irksome.

[Hueyman]

The 8 and 24 are extremely similar, that's a fact.

 

The Mi-24 was designed on the drawing board to fill an empty role and answers the Red Army request for a versatile ground attack AND transport helicopter.

 

It was built using very similar and often the same dynamic components ( rotorheads, transmission, drivetrain, engines... ) than the Mi-8 to save time and costs on development and servicing. For instance, the main rotor is basically the very same but with wider chord blades.

 

You can compare the Mi-8 and Mi-24 with the UH-1 Huey and AH-1 Huey Cobra, they were built around the same heart.

 

Now, don't compare orange and apples, the Hind is not the Gazelle, Kiowa, or even Apache. It's not made to hover at treetop, just hopping up to fire and hide back down.

 

It's made to come low and extrememy fast, anihilate the battlfield, drop troops on that cleared battlefield and go home. As simple as that.

 

Speaking about agility of an airframe is quite vague, of course they all have inherent manoeuvrability ( pitch, roll and yaw rates, inertia etc .. ) which is intimely related to their Take Off Weight.

 

As you said above, flying the Mi-8 with only flying crew and 600 Kg of fuel at -30°C at sea level and the same at 13 tons in hot and high conditions is not the same trip at all.

 

I think anyone who expects the Hind, especially the P variant, to be the terminator of choppers, all capable CAS superpowered invulnerable platform will fall from high and be very disapointed, it will be, like the real deal, very close to the Mi-8 : a fast train, loaded with fuel and ordinance, with complex yet very basic systems. Kind of similar to the Tomcat, legendary in the popular culture but no so impressive on actual use.

 

What will add interest in this one will be to learn how to properly operate it, calulate day performances according to local conditions and mission requirements to stay in the enveloppe, and hopefully soon after release integrate the multicrew aspect.

 

On a sidenote, the Mi-8 module, as old and archaïc it may look, is one true little gem and work of art from the devs.

 

The turbine simulation only is a masterpiece, with correctly simulated regulations, One Engine Inoperative OPS, Doppler, AP34 autopilot, Tail rotor pitch limitere etc.. coding all these mechanical and analog devices must be far from easy.

 

Looking forward to the Hind a lot, and also an update in the Mi-8 graphics, like they're doing with the Ka-50.

[Rogue Trooper]

+1 Hueyman

Nicely said and if it is on par with the MI-8 it will be worth every penny..

[lmp]

On 1/8/2021 at 5:56 AM, Hueyman said:

On a sidenote, the Mi-8 module, as old and archaïc it may look, is one true little gem and work of art from the devs.

Maybe it's just me, but I always felt the old Belsimtek team really put that extra bit of effort into their Soviet modules (the Mi-8 and MiG-15bis). They probably didn't sell as well as their American counterparts and certainly not as well as the teen fighters, but they just feel... most done? 

 

I hope the Hind will be just as good or even better.

[Viktor_UHPK]

 

18 hours ago, lmp said:

Maybe it's just me, but I always felt the old Belsimtek team really put that extra bit of effort into their Soviet modules (the Mi-8 and MiG-15bis). They probably didn't sell as well as their American counterparts and certainly not as well as the teen fighters, but they just feel... most done? 

 

I hope the Hind will be just as good or even better.

 

I agree! The Mi-8 for me is the best ever created simulation of a helicopter for the consumer market. I'm very optimistic that the Mi-24 will be a great product. And I think the Alexander, as the module lead - has taken the right decisions when it comes to including specific features and postponing / excluding others.

[Grievo]

Hey Dangerzone,

 

man I hated flying the Mi-8 for ages, kept giving it a go and going back to the Huey, but with the Search and Rescue Server I actually put a few hours into it and it’s actually pretty amazing. The variety in mission set is also fairly enticing. There’s some good propaganda “documentaries” about Russian helicopters in Syria, and the CSAR one featuring the Mi-8 gives some pretty cool ideas for misssions. 
 

Anyway. Stick with it and give it a chance. It’s a beast, but very capable once you learn its foibles. 

[Viktor_UHPK]

It makes a big difference, if you fly a helicopter according to real / realistic procedures and techniques. These are often times quite restrictive, because they are made to work, even if systems (engines) fail. If you learn to operate in this envelope, then takeoffs, approaches and landings will work out better. 

 

What I have seen a lot in videos and multiplayer missions is that players will usually do everything that is possible within the DCS limitations. And that is ok - everyone has his own concept of simulator flying.