correct as-is P51 Max Weight correct?

[VeeSPIKE]

OB .59625

 

Is the max takeoff weight for the P51 correct? I have seen several sources that list max weight for the D model at 12,000+ pounds. But in the ME, max weight is 10,500, which means you are over weight if you try to take a full compliment of HVARS, or almost any amount of fuel.

 

Or am I reading this wrong?

 

 

[NineLine]

You are seeing the total max weight of what is currently loaded on the aircraft, if you add or remove something, it will change.

[VeeSPIKE]

On 1/7/2021 at 4:34 PM, NineLine said:

You are seeing the total max weight of what is currently loaded on the aircraft, if you add or remove something, it will change.

 

 

 

I am referring to Max Weight. That would be the 10,580 figure in the first box. I am aware that the second box is the total weight of the aircraft. In this image, I am already overweight, with only 6 rockets and 65% fuel. If I were to increase the load to 6 rockets, 2 bombs and 100% fuel, the aircraft Total weight would be just shy of 12,000lbs. Which is within limits according to sources, but in the ME, it would show as over max weight and the counter would show me as 113% (in red.)

 

To be fair, the aircraft will still take off in this configuration. It's hairy, but it'll do it. But if you don't know that, you would see what the ME shows and think it could not.

 

 

If this is intentional, it's confusing. If this is wrong in *my* system, where is the "error" coming from?

 

 

going on a diet.miz

[Captain Orso]

I've run into this while trying to setup a mission.

 

If the Max weight is supposed to be changing with the loadout -- I can't understand what that is even supposed to be representing -- it is certainly not doing it in my ME. The MAX is set to 10582 and I can select whichever payload I wish and it never changes. If I load with 68% fuel, 100% gun ammunition and 10 HVAR, the total weight goes to 11,213 lbs, and below that %  displayed is 106 in red.

 

I really think something is not right here.

[Tanuki44]

MAX is the weight limit of what the plane can take so 100%

This value does not increase, on the other hand, TOTAL indicates the load of charge.

 

% = TOTAL / MAX

 

This is identical for other modules, planes or helicopters.

Edited August 1, 2021 by Tanuki44

[Callsign112]

So then the question is what is the MAX weight? Someone is reporting that they have sources showing the MAX to be 12000+, but in game it seems to be set closer to 10500. Which one is correct? 

[Tanuki44]

The value is defined in the file : P-51D.lua

Line 60 :
M_max           = 4800, -- kg => 10582 lbs

 

http://www.u-boote.fr/p-51.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_P-51_Mustang

 

Maybe 100% is not the authorized max value but a security value ... 

Edited August 1, 2021 by Tanuki44

[Callsign112]

In the French link you provide, 4800kg is the loaded weight. the MAX weight is listed as 5489kg, or 12000+ lbs.

 

The wiki link you provided lists the MAX take-off weight as 12100lbs.

 

So the situation seems to be like @VeeSPIKE was suggesting, the MAX take-off weight in DCS is not correct.

 

The other way to look at it is that DCS uses the loaded weight as 100%, and any weight differences up to the MAX take-off weight are shown in red as being overweight.

[Captain Orso]

The flight manual never states what the maximum take-off weight is. It does however have a chart on page 115 describing the stall speed for different weights with different stati (gear up or down, flaps up or down), degrees of bank in the turn, and what the stall speeds are. The weights in pounds listed are 9,000, 10,000, 11,000, and 12,000.

 

If 10,582 is the maximum take-off or operational weight, then why waist any thoughts on 11,000 or 12,000 pounds, which would never be carried, because they are beyond the maximum?

 

If 10,582 is not the maximum take-off or operational weight, then why does the ME say that it is, and display the % above 10,582 in red and greater than 100?

[=475FG= Dawger]

20 minutes ago, Captain Orso said:

The flight manual never states what the maximum take-off weight is. It does however have a chart on page 115 describing the stall speed for different weights with different stati (gear up or down, flaps up or down), degrees of bank in the turn, and what the stall speeds are. The weights in pounds listed are 9,000, 10,000, 11,000, and 12,000.

 

If 10,582 is the maximum take-off or operational weight, then why waist any thoughts on 11,000 or 12,000 pounds, which would never be carried, because they are beyond the maximum?

 

If 10,582 is not the maximum take-off or operational weight, then why does the ME say that it is, and display the % above 10,582 in red and greater than 100?

My guess would be because the game was built for a twin engine airplane, which does have a maximum allowable takeoff weight and it is not worth the bother to fiddle with reprogramming the loadout screen to account for the differences.

 

[Callsign112]

Yeah I agree with @Captain Orso, I think it must be either an oversight, or a typo somewhere down the line. It would be nice to hear back from one of the DCS crew on this, but maybe @VeeSPIKE should consider submitting a bug report and see what happens.

 

Or maybe someone that is really up on their P-51D history could offer some insight. DCS seems to be using the "loaded" weight as MAX. I know the jump from 10500 to 12000 makes a pretty big difference in performance, so maybe 10500 was considered a normal MAX load out, but the plane could be pushed up to 12000 if more range was really needed. The plane isn't very maneuverable at 12000, but usually by the time you get close to where your going, the extra weight has been burnt off through the engine.

[grafspee]

This chart shows 11000 lb, but does not say what is max it gives numbers for flight planning.

Edited August 2, 2021 by grafspee

[Callsign112]

At sea level without a head wind, your hard surface run way would have to be 2700 feet to clear a 50 foot object when your gross weight of 11000 according to your chart, or 2800 on soft ground. Your chart doesn't go to GW 12000lb, but is 2800 feet longer than the typical runway on Normandy? And what is the MAX take-off weight for the P-51? 

 

As you can see in the discussion, the MAX weight given in DCS is different than the MAX weight listed in other sources. Would like to no why the discrepancy (thread listed as correct-as-is)?

Edited August 2, 2021 by Callsign112

[saburo_cz]

The gross weight can be as high as 12300 pounds when external armament and fuel are carried.

(from post war manual)

[grafspee]

@pmiceli said that max take off  weight is for twin or more engines planes, which limits max weight of the plane in case of single engine failure during take off to allow plane to continue the flight when one engine fails. In case of single engine plane formula for max take off weight is complete different.

[Terry Dactil]

Perhaps you would like to buy one

North American P-51D Mustang
Price (in good condition): $1.5 million to $1.8 million

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2007/august/01/north-american-aviation-p-51d-mustang

 

(extracted from the specs)

Empty weight, as tested	7,208 lb
Max gross weight (without armament)	10,500 lb
Max gross weight (with armament & drop tanks)	~13,000 lb
Useful load, as tested	3,292 lb
Payload w/full fuel, as tested	2,212 lb
Max takeoff weight (armament & drop tanks)	~13,000 lb
Max landing weight (armament & drop tanks)	~13,000 lb

[VeeSPIKE]

3 minutes ago, Terry Dactil said:

Perhaps you would like to buy one

North American P-51D Mustang
Price (in good condition): $1.5 million to $1.8 million

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2007/august/01/north-american-aviation-p-51d-mustang

 

(extracted from the specs)

Empty weight, as tested	7,208 lb
Max gross weight (without armament)	10,500 lb
Max gross weight (with armament & drop tanks)	~13,000 lb
Useful load, as tested	3,292 lb
Payload w/full fuel, as tested	2,212 lb
Max takeoff weight (armament & drop tanks)	~13,000 lb
Max landing weight (armament & drop tanks)	~13,000 lb

Which would suggest that DCS is using unarmed max gross weight as it's max weight for the P51. This would not be the first source I saw that had these numbers. In fact, Max Armed Gross here is higher than I saw when I was looking.

 

Since they marked it correct as-is, i didn't push. Maybe more people pointing it out will make them take another look at what they have. Because what they have does not make a lot of sense.

[Lloyd80]

From what I have found online the max weights used in the pilots flight operations instructions was 13000lbs in the take off, climb and landing chart.

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/P-51D-manual-5april44.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiuj9fnvJTyAhVIecAKHc0UAH8QFjAAegQIAxAC&usg=AOvVaw1M7qhGVOiGWG5FBXYwgRuT

 

 

 

Hope this helps. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by Lloyd80

[Lloyd80]

 

14 hours ago, grafspee said:

This chart shows 11000 lb, but does not say what is max it gives numbers for flight planning.

 

I seen this one too in the P51D training manual. It seems that when  reading the manual it states that the chart you have shown and the second one named "flight operation instruction chart" were "sample" charts so you can follow the manuals example flight planning and then it states the full charts are listed further below.  

 

Comparing the two manuals, it seems the US "pilots operating handbook" is missing the full take off, climb and landing charts that are found british pilots flight operations handbook (which is basically a copy of the US POH).