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Wing Stall tendency excessive?


Nealius
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I'm used to the Spitfire, so maybe that's part of the issue, but does anyone else find the Mustang to be excessively prone to wing stalling? I cannot fight AI Bf109s at all because anything more than 1.5~2G at around 200mph results in a wing stall or snap roll. Comparitively in the Spitfire, I can kill just about anything and never have to worry about wing stalls unless I'm at extremely slow speeds. 

 

I have to treat this thing like such a princess that, despite delicate movements of my stick, it wing stalls or snap rolls so much it is entirely useless at A2A combat. Particularly above 20,000ft.

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What can i say, different planes fly differently.

Problem with AI, that it uses same tactic, if it fights against p-51 or spitfire, Ai should apply different approach fighting spitfire.

This is simply issue with AI that spitfire is super easy.

 


Edited by grafspee

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Also check your fuel status, it may explain some of your issues.

Excessive fuel in the P51 will pull CoG to the back of the airplane, exacerbing the wing stall tendancy a lot. Don't pull out hard maneuvers with more than 40% fuel on board.

Whisper of old OFP & C6 forums, now Kalbuth.

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14 minutes ago, Whisper said:

Also check your fuel status, it may explain some of your issues.

Excessive fuel in the P51 will pull CoG to the back of the airplane, exacerbing the wing stall tendancy a lot. Don't pull out hard maneuvers with more than 40% fuel on board.

 

Is that with the fuselage tank, or even with empty fuselage tank and full wing tanks? I get into action fairly early on in the flight so I'm definitely over 40% fuel, but that should be wing tanks only. Nothing in the fuselage tank.

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It's fuselage tank that makes this behavior kick in, as far as I understood it. Are you sure that it's not getting filled when above 40% fuel?

 

EDIT : Checked out the manual, the aux fuselage tank should indeed not account for so much capacity.... It would then all depends on how the fuel is spread out by the sim at the start of the mission and which tanks you have been using during flight. You can check the amount of fuel left in each tank, they have each a dedicated gauge

EDIT 2 : Page 110 of the manual specifies the limits to avoid with regards to fuselage tank fuel and maneuvers. You're right, it definitely shouldn't impact simply by having more than 40% fuel, but that depends on fuel repartition on tanks


Edited by Whisper

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Fuel in fuselage tank do not change stall speeds, it only change pitch sensitivity of the plane. With fuselage tank full recover from spin can be problematic.

This plane simply flight differently then spit.

You cant fly it like a spitfire period. P-51 requires more speed then spitfire to do same thing.


Edited by grafspee

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1 hour ago, grafspee said:

Fuel in fuselage tank do not change stall speeds, it only change pitch sensitivity of the plane. With fuselage tank full recover from spin can be problematic.

This plane simply flight differently then spit.

You cant fly it like a spitfire period. P-51 requires more speed then spitfire to do same thing.

 

As far I read it, nobody said otherwise in this thread 🙂

I was just pointing out a possibility, which seems to have an impact on behaviour serious enough to be listed in the Mustang manual ....

Whisper of old OFP & C6 forums, now Kalbuth.

Specs : i7 6700K / MSI 1070 / 32G RAM / SSD / Rift S / Virpil MongooseT50 / Virpil T50 CM2 Throttle / MFG Crosswind.

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Posted (edited)
On 1/1/2021 at 9:55 PM, grafspee said:

Fuel in fuselage tank do not change stall speeds, it only change pitch sensitivity of the plane. With fuselage tank full recover from spin can be problematic.

This plane simply flight differently then spit.

You cant fly it like a spitfire period. P-51 requires more speed then spitfire to do same thing.

 

 

Re: requiring more speed in a fight. How is that possible at altitudes greater than 20,000ft, where Mustangs are realistically protecting bombers? I find it impossible to get more than 250mph in straight-and-level flight while respecting max continuous prop/MP settings, and I experience severe wing stalls trying to pull anywhere between 2G~4G at that speed and altitude. It seems vastly inferior to the K4, or even the Spit which is itself inferior to the K4, in the same regime. Even the A8 handles better at those altitudes. 


Edited by Nealius

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2 hours ago, Nealius said:

 

Re: requiring more speed in a fight. How is that possible at altitudes greater than 20,000ft, where Mustangs are realistically protecting bombers? I find it impossible to get more than 250mph in straight-and-level flight while respecting max continuous prop/MP settings, and I experience severe wing stalls trying to pull anywhere between 2G~4G at that speed and altitude. It seems vastly inferior to the K4, or even the Spit which is itself inferior to the K4, in the same regime. Even the A8 handles better at those altitudes. 

 

No one is saying that P-51 should be better then K-4 or D-9.

The main great thing about P-51 is that this plane was at all with bombers to protect them, before p-51 bombers were alone.

Majority of P-51 clash with Gs. Bf-109 G versions had smaller supercharger and lack of power was significant at high alt.

At the end of the war allies had 10 times more planes in the air then  axis.

P-51 vs K-4 1v1 is clear win for K-4 no matter the altitude. 

Second thing no one is fighting at continuous power unless you want to die, use full power.


Edited by grafspee

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What's "full power?" Anything higher than max continuous states "5 minutes," and combat lasts way longer than 5 minutes.

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7 minutes ago, Nealius said:

What's "full power?" Anything higher than max continuous states "5 minutes," and combat lasts way longer than 5 minutes.

Full power mean prop max and throttle to max w/o breaking WEP wire.

5min ? 61" 3000rpm give you 15 min, 5 min is for 67" which i don't use my self.

at high alt you may not be able to get 61"  so i said full power.


Edited by grafspee

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Nealius, at 20k you should be getting about 270-275 IAS with max continuous (46/2700) settings. 250 sounds a bit low, maybe you had mixture in full rich by mistake when making these observations? It's only 5-10 mph IAS slower than 109 running on its own max continuous by the way (at least when human-flown, I'm not counting AI with their simplified FM shenaningans!).

 

In either case, as mentioned above, don't hesitate to use higher power settings. As long as you don't slow down below 170-ish, or use WEP for too long, your engine should handle it just fine.

 

That being said, these lamniar wings don't like sustained Gs all that much indeed...


Edited by Art-J

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On 1/1/2021 at 11:20 AM, Nealius said:

I'm used to the Spitfire, so maybe that's part of the issue, but does anyone else find the Mustang to be excessively prone to wing stalling? I cannot fight AI Bf109s at all because anything more than 1.5~2G at around 200mph results in a wing stall or snap roll. Comparitively in the Spitfire, I can kill just about anything and never have to worry about wing stalls unless I'm at extremely slow speeds. 

 

I have to treat this thing like such a princess that, despite delicate movements of my stick, it wing stalls or snap rolls so much it is entirely useless at A2A combat. Particularly above 20,000ft.

 

Spitfire was designed for aerobatic flying, Mustang was designed for speed, that is the main difference. First of all, you should regard Mustang as a racing plane and not an aerobatic plane, due to its laminar wing profile which gives better speed but provides less lift than a traditional wing profile.

 

But in reality, Mustang can turn pretty good, you just need to learn the technique how to do a turn in a Mustang. Naturally, you just want to pull the stick, but that action would make a Mustang stall or roll, because of the mentioned laminar wing profile. So, you need to begin a turn very slowly, and then to accelerate it, until the plane starts shaking a bit, that means it has reached its maximum turn rate at that moment. It can be annoying in the beginning, but if you practice it enough, your hand will learn the movement, and it will start feeling natural. Also, with Mustang, patience is the key word. Patience, patience, and patience, and never rush.

 

Regarding the engine, I dogfight with 95% of both MPR and RPM, and the engine never burns. If I'm in a hurry, I push both throttle and propeller to 100%, and then press "minus" and "Page Down" on my keyboard just to slightly decrease them.

 

Here, I have recorded one of my dogfights against an AI Bf 109. He gave me lots of trouble, stalls and rolls, but patience was the key, and when I finally managed to get behind him, he was toast.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

"Full power" and "95% MPR/RPM" is pretty vague.....shouldn't these be in specific pressures and RPMs?


Edited by Nealius

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13 hours ago, Nealius said:

"Full power" and "95% MPR/RPM" is pretty vague.....shouldn't these be in specific pressures and RPMs?

 

 

No. It depends on the speed. More speed equals better engine cooling. You can run the engine on 100% for hours safely if you have enough speed for the air flow to cool the engine. But when you are climbing or turning, the speed goes down, and so the engine cooling also gets worse because of the less air flow. But from my experience, 95% MPR/RPM is safe for dogfight. And 95% really makes a difference in comparison to default 86%. In the beginning, I was dogfighting AI Dora usually for half an hour every time with 86% MPR/RPM. But when I switched to 95% MPR/RPM, now my dogfights with AI Dora usually last from a minute to two minutes.

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In real air battle no one would do that, you see enemy you push prop and throttle lever until  it stops, from this point you only manage throttle.


Edited by grafspee

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How do you calculate the 86% and 95%? Throttle position? Current MP/RPM divided by the redline?

 

I'll give it another shot, but the last few times I did full prop full throttle the engine blew in short order.....

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3 hours ago, Nealius said:

How do you calculate the 86% and 95%? Throttle position? Current MP/RPM divided by the redline?

 

I'll give it another shot, but the last few times I did full prop full throttle the engine blew in short order.....

remember to apply full power in right order, first rise rpm then rise MP.

at full power you must watch your speed, if you drop below 200mph you need to ease on throttle.

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On 1/4/2021 at 7:09 PM, grafspee said:

In real air battle no one would do that, you see enemy you push prop and throttle lever until  it stops, from this point you only manage throttle.

 

 

I'll give it a try. I just feel 100% safe with the engine if I set both MPR and RPM at around 95%, that way I don't need to think about the engine anymore, and can concentrate on flying.

 

14 hours ago, Nealius said:

How do you calculate the 86% and 95%? Throttle position? Current MP/RPM divided by the redline?

 

I'll give it another shot, but the last few times I did full prop full throttle the engine blew in short order.....

 

0.86 x 61 = 52.46 ~ 53 :-)

0.86 x 30 = 25.8 ~ 26

 

0.95 x 61 = 57.95 ~ 58

0.95 x 30 = 28.5

 

I use MPR/RPM combination 53/26 ("86%") for flying around and for ground attack, and 58/28.5 ("95%") for dogfight.

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Gotcha. I'm usually babying the engine. Same with the Spit: 2850rpm at +8 boost and I'm still whipping Jerry's tail. 

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  • 1 month later...
On 1/3/2021 at 11:04 PM, grafspee said:

P-51 vs K-4 1v1 is clear win for K-4 no matter the altitude. 

Second thing no one is fighting at continuous power unless you want to die, use full power.

 

It wouldn't be so bad if you could use WEP in the P51D without guaranteed random engine failure.

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8 hours ago, Snapage said:

It wouldn't be so bad if you could use WEP in the P51D without guaranteed random engine failure.

Yes every inch more on MP brings you closer to K-4 🙂 P-51H with WET WEP probably would eat K-4 with ease.

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  • 3 weeks later...
56 minutes ago, Razor68 said:

I don't fly the WWII aircraft much in DCS as i like iL-2 GB better. But i own 3 WW2 modules in DCS, K4 - Dora and P-51D. I did fly the P-51 a couple of days ago and when i started to pull gently back on the stick in a turn the aircraft just did a wing stall right away. I gave up flying it as i would not stand a chance in a fight.

sounds like you had alot of fuel in your wing tanks and an overly aggressive pitch axis.   In a fight I still dip a wing sometimes (the spitfire pilot in me) but you can catch it pretty quick and not lose position.   Giving up won't get you anywhere.   If all modules flew just perfectly easily straight out of the box without any sort of burn in (hours) then what's the point.  

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Razor68 said:

I know very well how to fly, i am very good at it. They have changed something in on one of the updates cause it did not handle like this before. Well anyways i am not here to argue and it's not that important for me since i use DCS for jets anyways. Just wanted the OP to know that he is right.

 

After spending about 30 hours dogfighting in the Mustang I feel that I'm actually wrong now. Granted, I have a 20cm stick extension which gives me much more precision and delicate handling than a standard desk-top stick, but here's what I've learned:

 

1. Zoom and Boom. Don't try turn fights. Hit 'em hard and run.

 

2. Listen for the Whistle. When the Mustang pulls alpha the wind over the gunports starts whistling. You can hear this in the cockpit, and the more intense it gets the more alpha you're pulling. Learn how intense it gets before you start getting wing stalls, and then ease off the stick when you get to that point.

 

3. Flaps. If you have to get slow and turn hard and you know you're probably going to wing stall, drop flaps 1~2 notches. It doesn't prevent wing stalls but it gives you extra maneuvering room before you do get a wing stall.

 

 


Edited by Nealius

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3 hours ago, Razor68 said:

I know very well how to fly, i am very good at it. They have changed something in on one of the updates cause it did not handle like this before. Well anyways i am not here to argue and it's not that important for me since i use DCS for jets anyways. Just wanted the OP to know that he is right.

I fly P-51 very frequent, i tell you, they changed nothing 🙂 And i fly jets very rarely. Experience in jets makes flying warbirds even more difficult. 

P-51 is quite decent in turn fights, you can engage turn fight with Fw190 D and A version, only K-4 is better, till it is not decisive, because P-51 has much higher instantaneous turn rate at high speeds.

Keep ball in centre, this will prevent most wing stalls while pulling hard.  


Edited by grafspee

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