Do I Buy the Viggen or Mirage?

[CommandT]

I'm going back and forth between the two and can't figure out what is more interesting - mostly interested in available content and what's more fun to learn? I've test flown both and I like both. Obviously the Mirage is a little more multi-role and will be good for dogfighting but I'm not too bothered about this aspect. Just trying to figure out what's more fun to learn and operate. Especially given the available content. Any opinions from those that fly both? Do they both have adequate systems modeling and implementation? I'm leaning towards the Mirage atm as it seems like there's more realistic content for it?

For reference I already fly the F-18 and l love the AV-8B. The only other aircraft that I'm interested in currently is either the Mirage or the Viggen. 

[Northstar98]

There's a free trial on for both of them at the moment, it might be worth downloading them and trying them both out.

[Qiou87]

Two different philosophies, I'd make sure what you like doing before committing. Of course, try them both. I have ~25h in the Mirage, and only 5h in the Viggen, although I haven't touched the former for over six months because everything it does, a Viper does it better.

- The Mirage is an interceptor, likes to fly high and fast. It can be a bit disconnected due to the FBW, but still great fun. Mostly air-to-air though, the air-to-ground is very limited.

- the Viggen is a low-and-fast penetration strike fighter, hug the terrain, pop up to drop all your ordinance in one pass, and fly back to base. It is a more engaging flight, very rewarding when you manage to hit your target. It can also work on the coast to hit ships.

 

As a complement to the Hornet that is my primary jet, the Viggen makes the most sense and I love to take it out regularly. I highly recommend this module: easy to get a start in, difficult to master.

 

Regarding SP content, I haven't checked the Viggen campaign so cannot speak about it. There are some training missions though. The Mirage has a lot of missions but also 2 included campaigns, one in Caucasus (sort of an advanced tutorial with a scenario) and a short one in PG. Both excellent, Baltic Dragon is clearly super talented. His DLC campaign (Red flag) requires NTTR but is also of excellent quality. So the Mirage seems to be the better one for SP content.

[CommandT]

34 minutes ago, Qiou87 said:

Two different philosophies, I'd make sure what you like doing before committing. Of course, try them both. I have ~25h in the Mirage, and only 5h in the Viggen, although I haven't touched the former for over six months because everything it does, a Viper does it better.

- The Mirage is an interceptor, likes to fly high and fast. It can be a bit disconnected due to the FBW, but still great fun. Mostly air-to-air though, the air-to-ground is very limited.

- the Viggen is a low-and-fast penetration strike fighter, hug the terrain, pop up to drop all your ordinance in one pass, and fly back to base. It is a more engaging flight, very rewarding when you manage to hit your target. It can also work on the coast to hit ships.

 

As a complement to the Hornet that is my primary jet, the Viggen makes the most sense and I love to take it out regularly. I highly recommend this module: easy to get a start in, difficult to master.

 

Regarding SP content, I haven't checked the Viggen campaign so cannot speak about it. There are some training missions though. The Mirage has a lot of missions but also 2 included campaigns, one in Caucasus (sort of an advanced tutorial with a scenario) and a short one in PG. Both excellent, Baltic Dragon is clearly super talented. His DLC campaign (Red flag) requires NTTR but is also of excellent quality. So the Mirage seems to be the better one for SP content.

Yeah that's kinda the problem for me - I love anything related to Red Flag and NTTR and the Mirage would be better for that, especially as there's no such campaign for the Hornet that I fly. But I prefer having a low level interdiction fighter since I already have the Hornet for all the other multi-role stuff. I'm aware there's a Red Flag campaign for the Viggen also but this seems very far fetched and not really it's natural habitat. 

Is having the cockpit switches in Swedish an issue at all for normal ops? I see the Mirage has an English pit for it's export variants presumably and would give access to flying around NTTR and Syria whereas the Viggen feels very out of place anywhere other than the Caucuses.  

1 hour ago, Northstar98 said:

There's a free trial on for both of them at the moment, it might be worth downloading them and trying them both out.

Yeah I have both atm. Just not sure what I want to concentrate on long term. 

[Qiou87]

The swedish pit is only really an issue when you are learning the jet. Once you know what you want to do and your way around the cockpit, you don’t read the text. You know where everything is anyway.

 

Let’s not kid ourselves, most of us don’t fly historically correct missions, many assets are wrong, etc. I have no issue flying the Viggen in Syria for example, out of Incirlik for example. And the beautiful terrain makes it a lovely match, lots of mountains and valleys to play with below 500ft AGL.

 

But yeah, if Red Flag and all that is your thing, probably go with the Mirage. It is a good plane, but I just think you will get bored with it once you finish the available campaigns. The Viggen is more fun to fly imho, and it’s mission profile just more engaging in the current DCS universe. Considering you already own the Swiss army plane (Hornet) that does everything, I believe the secondary planes should be really specific and maybe a bit quirky to keep your interest in the long run. To me that is the Viggen, but I totally respect if you feel differently and go for the Mirage.

Edited December 26, 2020 by Qiou87

[CommandT]

3 hours ago, Qiou87 said:

The swedish pit is only really an issue when you are learning the jet. Once you know what you want to do and your way around the cockpit, you don’t read the text. You know where everything is anyway.

 

Let’s not kid ourselves, most of us don’t fly historically correct missions, many assets are wrong, etc. I have no issue flying the Viggen in Syria for example, out of Incirlik for example. And the beautiful terrain makes it a lovely match, lots of mountains and valleys to play with below 500ft AGL.

 

But yeah, if Red Flag and all that is your thing, probably go with the Mirage. It is a good plane, but I just think you will get bored with it once you finish the available campaigns. The Viggen is more fun to fly imho, and it’s mission profile just more engaging in the current DCS universe. Considering you already own the Swiss army plane (Hornet) that does everything, I believe the secondary planes should be really specific and maybe a bit quirky to keep your interest in the long run. To me that is the Viggen, but I totally respect if you feel differently and go for the Mirage.

 

I 100% agree. I'm swaying towards the Viggen as I absolutely love low level interdiction flying and I like that it's different and can land on a road. I still would prefer flying it over the caucuses as it seems a little closer to it's natural habitat. The Mirage feels great to throw around and I might enjoy dogfighting on it. I use the Hornet for that now which I like but the "wobble" bug that's been in it's flight model since day one is SO annoying when you dogfight people that looking at the Mirage it seems like it has more bug-free FM for that. Having said that I also do think it will just do everything the Hornet does already. I'll keep thinking but I might go for the Viggen. Thanks for the input! 

[Dragon1-1]

If you're mostly SP, Mirage is far superior. Viggen's SP content is very good, but not Baltic Dragon level. Viggen being anywhere but in Sweden does seem like it'd make any storyline feel contrived, but HB made it work.

 

Also, I found the Viggen to be a really quirky aircraft. Having the switches in Swedish is not that much of a problem (though it's harder to make sense of than French), but the bigger issue is that the Viggen is all about steerpoints. It has very few options to deviate from the mission plan (an issue in MP) and it can't really do things like CAS that require multiple passes, because its design philosophy is strictly "one pass and haul ass". It's a good approach for low level precision strikes, but that's it. It's a pretty lousy fighter, too, with a radar that's nearly useless for air to air (it can work as a rangefinder and that's it), no lead computation for guns, and a limited selection to air to air loadouts. You either take two gun pods and two Sidewinders, or four Sidewinders. Oh, and chaff/flare and ECM pods can't be carried at the same time as the guns. 

 

In contrast, the Mirage is a straightforward plane. A comparison with the Viper is apt, because it feels a lot like I think an F-16A would. Basic FBW, analog SMS, an a simple but sufficiently capable air to air radar. It's reasonably good at bombing, can use its rockets for CAS, has an internal gun for strafing and dogfights, and has both built-in ECM and chaff/flare dispensers. It can also drop LGBs on JTAC-lased targets. However, it doesn't have anything to aid you in low level strikes and finding targets on the ground, where the Viggen's radar is as its most useful, and it has no good way to deal with ships, which is another thing the Viggen is really good at.

[CommandT]

2 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

If you're mostly SP, Mirage is far superior. Viggen's SP content is very good, but not Baltic Dragon level. Viggen being anywhere but in Sweden does seem like it'd make any storyline feel contrived, but HB made it work.

 

Also, I found the Viggen to be a really quirky aircraft. Having the switches in Swedish is not that much of a problem (though it's harder to make sense of than French), but the bigger issue is that the Viggen is all about steerpoints. It has very few options to deviate from the mission plan (an issue in MP) and it can't really do things like CAS that require multiple passes, because its design philosophy is strictly "one pass and haul ass". It's a good approach for low level precision strikes, but that's it. It's a pretty lousy fighter, too, with a radar that's nearly useless for air to air (it can work as a rangefinder and that's it), no lead computation for guns, and a limited selection to air to air loadouts. You either take two gun pods and two Sidewinders, or four Sidewinders. Oh, and chaff/flare and ECM pods can't be carried at the same time as the guns. 

 

In contrast, the Mirage is a straightforward plane. A comparison with the Viper is apt, because it feels a lot like I think an F-16A would. Basic FBW, analog SMS, an a simple but sufficiently capable air to air radar. It's reasonably good at bombing, can use its rockets for CAS, has an internal gun for strafing and dogfights, and has both built-in ECM and chaff/flare dispensers. It can also drop LGBs on JTAC-lased targets. However, it doesn't have anything to aid you in low level strikes and finding targets on the ground, where the Viggen's radar is as its most useful, and it has no good way to deal with ships, which is another thing the Viggen is really good at.

Yeah I'm still torn. It's mostly about SP for me. The only thing I do in MP is dogfighting and the Hornet is fine for that minus the horrid wobble bug. I'm not too bothered about adding the Mirage to the dogfighting arsenal though it would be nice to have. And I sort of do like the fact that it can be used on almost any map with some degree of realism. The Viggen is a fish out of water but I do love the idea of having a slightly quirky different plane and a different type of mission profile. Although I guess you could technically use a Mirage for low level attack runs too. Decisions, decisions... 

[Dragon1-1]

You very definitely can and, if you play the campaign, will use the Mirage for low-level attack.  It's just that you can's do it in thick clouds or rain. That's where Viggen's strengths lie, as long as you can see the target and the terrain on the radar, you can fly a treetop-level bombing run and still hit it. Best just to try it out during the free trial period, fly some training missions to get a feel for both. Viggen, unfortunately, is not "slightly quirky", it's very quirky. When I got it, it turned out to be weirder than I expected, and while certainly an enjoyable plane to fly once you get used to it, it's constrained by its one pass approach. 

 

For SP, it's Mirage 2000 hands down, and you should put other RAZBAM modules on your wishlist, since they all have Baltic Dragon's campaigns bundled. Get the Raven One campaign if you haven't already, too, it's by the same guy, for the Hornet. Also, if you're gonna get the Mirage, the FC3 F-15C and The Georgian War campaign are a good buy, too, that one takes place before the Mirage 2000 Caucasus campaign.

[DimSim]

I bought Harrier and Mirrage as first my two jets. Love them both. Have spent more time in Mirage than any other aircraft. Love it and recommend it.

A nice thing about mirrage is that you can perform ground attack. The bundled and commercial campaigns are also excellent.

I can't speak for the Viggen but only hear positive things about it as far as fun to flying and bombing.

Edited December 27, 2020 by DimSim

[CommandT]

2 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

You very definitely can and, if you play the campaign, will use the Mirage for low-level attack.  It's just that you can's do it in thick clouds or rain. That's where Viggen's strengths lie, as long as you can see the target and the terrain on the radar, you can fly a treetop-level bombing run and still hit it. Best just to try it out during the free trial period, fly some training missions to get a feel for both. Viggen, unfortunately, is not "slightly quirky", it's very quirky. When I got it, it turned out to be weirder than I expected, and while certainly an enjoyable plane to fly once you get used to it, it's constrained by its one pass approach. 

 

For SP, it's Mirage 2000 hands down, and you should put other RAZBAM modules on your wishlist, since they all have Baltic Dragon's campaigns bundled. Get the Raven One campaign if you haven't already, too, it's by the same guy, for the Hornet. Also, if you're gonna get the Mirage, the FC3 F-15C and The Georgian War campaign are a good buy, too, that one takes place before the Mirage 2000 Caucasus campaign.

Yeah I'm just learning the Harrier now. Love it but some very annoying bugs and a real lack of new manuals/ tutorials after the TPOD changes is making me struggle a bit but I'm getting there. The thing I love about the Harrier so far are the superb training missions (even though the sensors/ TPOD one is clearly outdated and does not reflect the current state of affairs). If the Mirage has a similar level of training missions it might sway me towards that. Plus I love the Red Flag stuff and it seems there's a decent campaign for it. 

I've flown 10 of the Raven One missions. TBH I was not enjoying it as much as I thought I would. Sometimes I felt stuff wasn't that well thought through and actually had a sort of artificial feel to it. Also the carrier ops were a bit handicapped I thought by never having any planes or deck equipment when you return - BD said it was due to the carrier AI logic being unpredictable and thus he was airing in the side of caution. That still broke some immersion for me. But overall, yes BD is great for making good content. I believe he created the Harrier training missions and they are excellent. I'm actually really keen to finish them so I can do the Ottoman campaign missions that come with the Harrier. If the Mirage is anything like that I am swaying towards it even though the Viggen's mission profile sounds like a blast. 

I'm also keen to try this dynamic Liberation campaign thing. Sometimes SP scripted missions feel REALLY scripted and that also breaks some immersion. So I'm hoping this might be a nice change. 

Edited December 27, 2020 by CommandT

[Supersonic]

Both the Mirage and Viggen are fantastic, I have both in my virtual hanger. If your into low level interdiction sorties go Viggen, but if fly by wire multirole action is your thing go Mirage.

The Viggen also has an anti ship role that can be a real challenge so buy the SAAB and enjoy.

[shake307]

First, I will say that I am not the most qualified to answer which you should buy.  I only own the Viggen.  With that said, I feel like the Viggen is not getting a fair shake here.  I wholly recommend the Viggen.  You say you have the F/A-18?  Well, I would say that your multirole slot is filled.  Do you own an interdictor that can rip along at 100m altitude traveling at +M1.2?  Viggen does that, along with several other things.  You just need to learn it.  I am currently learning this unique aircraft and am nothing but amazed by the way it does its mission. 

 

Now to defend the Viggen against some of the less than flattering judgement as to its usefulness.  Contrary to popular belief, it is not a "one pass, haul ass" aircraft.  It is more of a "haul ass" kind of bird.  You get 4 mavericks, and that is including the heavy Mavs.  You get the Mjolnir Dispenser, also x4.  With those you get to select munitions for soft or hard targets, or both.  You also get the rockets that are just a blast to use, figuratively and literally (they explode like rockets, take note ED).  Anti ship strikes are a breeze with the RB-04 and RB-15 missiles.  This thing is a great mud mover and it has the blistering speed to ensure survivability.  It is "one pass, haul ass" if only to set up for another attack run. 

 

With what I said about its mission, I think the Viggen can be used to great effect in multiplayer.  I have not, however, used it in multiplayer as I don't feel confident yet as to my abilities.  It is literally designed to take on heavily defended areas to conduct a powerful strike.  You know, airfields and ships.  Speed is its greatest asset.  It does speed.  That is all it does.  Speed.  Low altitude speed.  I know how I will employ it when I get to multiplayer.  Fast strikes against vulnerable targets.  

 

As far as realism is concerned; who says the Viggen would never be used in the Persian Gulf or Syria?  There is a campaign for the Huey set in 2025 that has you flying for the Germans.  Is that realistic?  I say don't hang up on realism.  Fly it in its mission and you will not be disappointed.  It is a low level interdictor and should be treated as such.  If it really bugs you, just pretend you are Coalition Blue. 

 

Surprisingly, it can also do air to air.  I can carry 6 heaters, 4 of which are the version of the AIM-9P.  I could be wrong about that, but I do know it can carry 2 crappy AIM-9s and 4 better AIM-9s.  I have not gotten that far with it. 

 

It isn't as rigid or inflexible with waypoints and flight plans.  That can all be adjusted in flight.  It just requires a little bit of practice and training.  Map your controls properly and read the manual.  Is that not true for every other full fidelity module?

 

Single player, I think the Viggen is lacking.  I will admit that.  Yup.

 

As far as the Mirage?  Well I do not own it.  I have the KA-50, Mi-8, UH-1, F/A-18, A-10C, A-10C II, Fw-190 D-9, AJS-37, Mig-21, Flaming Cliffs 3, and am looking at the Harrier and Gazelle.  The Mirage has caught my curiousity, but not my attention.  It is a multirole, but it seems like a watered down multirole.  I have thought about buying it, but it really does not spark any passion for me.  Plus, whoever thought a fixed refueling probe was a good idea needs to get punched with a freight train.  I expect better from the French.

 

That is my nickel worth of free advice.

[Aviators]

i like Viggen

[Clipper]

The Mirage is currently my only hf module and I am pretty happy with it. Great dogfighter. Not yet an expert with A2G weapons.

I downloaded the F-18 and Supercarrier to test, but I can't stop playing the Mirage during these days. Anyway I probably will purchase the F-18.

[CommandT]

On 12/27/2020 at 2:57 AM, shake307 said:

First, I will say that I am not the most qualified to answer which you should buy.  I only own the Viggen.  With that said, I feel like the Viggen is not getting a fair shake here.  I wholly recommend the Viggen.  You say you have the F/A-18?  Well, I would say that your multirole slot is filled.  Do you own an interdictor that can rip along at 100m altitude traveling at +M1.2?  Viggen does that, along with several other things.  You just need to learn it.  I am currently learning this unique aircraft and am nothing but amazed by the way it does its mission. 

 

Now to defend the Viggen against some of the less than flattering judgement as to its usefulness.  Contrary to popular belief, it is not a "one pass, haul ass" aircraft.  It is more of a "haul ass" kind of bird.  You get 4 mavericks, and that is including the heavy Mavs.  You get the Mjolnir Dispenser, also x4.  With those you get to select munitions for soft or hard targets, or both.  You also get the rockets that are just a blast to use, figuratively and literally (they explode like rockets, take note ED).  Anti ship strikes are a breeze with the RB-04 and RB-15 missiles.  This thing is a great mud mover and it has the blistering speed to ensure survivability.  It is "one pass, haul ass" if only to set up for another attack run. 

 

With what I said about its mission, I think the Viggen can be used to great effect in multiplayer.  I have not, however, used it in multiplayer as I don't feel confident yet as to my abilities.  It is literally designed to take on heavily defended areas to conduct a powerful strike.  You know, airfields and ships.  Speed is its greatest asset.  It does speed.  That is all it does.  Speed.  Low altitude speed.  I know how I will employ it when I get to multiplayer.  Fast strikes against vulnerable targets.  

 

As far as realism is concerned; who says the Viggen would never be used in the Persian Gulf or Syria?  There is a campaign for the Huey set in 2025 that has you flying for the Germans.  Is that realistic?  I say don't hang up on realism.  Fly it in its mission and you will not be disappointed.  It is a low level interdictor and should be treated as such.  If it really bugs you, just pretend you are Coalition Blue. 

 

Surprisingly, it can also do air to air.  I can carry 6 heaters, 4 of which are the version of the AIM-9P.  I could be wrong about that, but I do know it can carry 2 crappy AIM-9s and 4 better AIM-9s.  I have not gotten that far with it. 

 

It isn't as rigid or inflexible with waypoints and flight plans.  That can all be adjusted in flight.  It just requires a little bit of practice and training.  Map your controls properly and read the manual.  Is that not true for every other full fidelity module?

 

Single player, I think the Viggen is lacking.  I will admit that.  Yup.

 

As far as the Mirage?  Well I do not own it.  I have the KA-50, Mi-8, UH-1, F/A-18, A-10C, A-10C II, Fw-190 D-9, AJS-37, Mig-21, Flaming Cliffs 3, and am looking at the Harrier and Gazelle.  The Mirage has caught my curiousity, but not my attention.  It is a multirole, but it seems like a watered down multirole.  I have thought about buying it, but it really does not spark any passion for me.  Plus, whoever thought a fixed refueling probe was a good idea needs to get punched with a freight train.  I expect better from the French.

 

That is my nickel worth of free advice.

Thank you very much for the run down. I do adore the Viggen's low level mission profile and how it goes about doing things. I do however still worry about SP content being a bit of an issue. The Mirage seems like it offers quite a bit more in that respect. I think unfortunately that might be enough to sway me towards it for now. Just out of curiosity, how difficult is the Viggen to learn? One thing I actually don't like about the F-18 is just hw many sub-modes and options you have. It's almost overkill and I probably only ever use 50% of what's on the table. Not that this is something to complain about but in a way I do like the idea of more simple aircraft which are not that full of options. The F-5 is one of my favourite but unfortunately it has a huge lack of SP content so much as I like it I pretty much never fly it  I feel both the Viggen and the Mirage are a good fit for me as you don't have million sub menus on your MFDs to deal with a million options. In a way I like this simplicity. 

One thing I've noticed with the Mirage that I really dislike is that the cockpit is black - so finding switches is proving a right pain, especially when a shadow falls on that part of the aircraft. I don't think this will be a problem with the Viggen. 

Edited December 28, 2020 by CommandT

[Qiou87]

4 hours ago, CommandT said:

Just out of curiosity, how difficult is the Viggen to learn?

 

Your mileage may vary, but I found it actually very easy to learn. Granted, I learned it with friends, in MP, after only one hour of training to take-off/land a couple of times and drop some bombs. But yeah, I was impressed by the fast pace at which I was able to pick it up, fly it and hit some stuff.

 

Of course, this is a far cry from mastering it. Especially for the unguided weapons, it will take some practice to become actually good. But just a few hours in, I was already capable to make a low approach on a Hawk SAM site, pop-up and drop a load of high-drag bombs, scoring valuable hits then egressing. The satisfaction for me was immense, because in the end there was no computer tricks: just me, flying the jet super low to avoid detection, releasing at the right time on target.

 

The mission computer stuff is a bit complicated, to change waypoints in flight, select one as your mission, it takes a few times to get the hang of it. But overall I was pleasantly surprised: despite the swedish cockpit, it is not a complicated jet to fly. I guess the fact it is not multirole helps a lot as well.

 

I just wanted to answer this question, I am not saying "go for Viggen" or "go for Mirage". I own both and I believe you should too. I enjoyed the Mirage campaigns a lot. I cannot speak for the Viggen campaigns, haven't played any. I can just speak for my current state of mind, flying 16/18 most of the time: the only jet I like to pick up because it is different and fun from either of those is the Viggen.

 

And I do want to point out that I am French, so I should be biased towards the Mirage. It is a fine module, you cannot go wrong with it. But damn, that low-flying fast-moving Viggen...

Edited December 28, 2020 by Qiou87

[Baco]

The Viggen has more complex systems, and is much , much more capable in A/G. But it absolutely lacks A/A capability except as self defense in very short range.

I like the Viggen better, more hours of learning, more diversity..

 

The Mirage is very simple regarding weapon systems and capabilities... is basically a medium range interceptor with very, very basic A/G capabilities...