VirPil helicopter collective controls

[zcaa0g]

I had concerns about the design of the base from the beginning.  I wasn't fond of the pivot point relying on the mounting bracket itself.   I will be interested in reading more reviews about how the collective responds with the 3 different cams.

 

The base is what I really like about the K-51 collective, I just wish the button box portion wasn't 3D printed.  Yes, I know that keeps the cost low, but would love to see a premium version as the base has been great over the past year.

[cordite]

https://forum.virpil.com/index.php?/topic/4021-i-know-this-is-a-long-shot-but-any-chance-of-an-apache-collective/

[crispy12]

https://m.facebook.com/groups/DigitalCombatSimulator/permalink/3957300021062652/

 

Here's my review of the collective. Check it out for pics.

 

I'll copy and paste it here

------------

 

Virpil collective (non-throttle) with Ka50 grip

First impressions and initial review

 

I received my collective today. I initially ordered 15 May, I got the confirmation of shipping of 25 June. The package actually reached my country on 28 June but thanks to the wonders of Economy shipping, was delayed till 6 July to be released. Don't order Economy shipping if you don't want couriers to intentionally delay your package!

 

Mounting

First step out of the box is to mount it. The collective chair mounts are really thick and feel stiff and solid. The measurements for bolt width used a maximum of 196mm. Mine were exactly 196 (Secret Lab Omega) but after accounting for the screw size (M6) were about 5mm too narrow for my chair. This could have been so easily remedied had they made the slots slightly longer. Another review mentioned the exact same problem.

 

 

My hack for reattaching the Secret Lab arm rest mounts.

 

It's quite clean after mounting the arm rest mounts. I lay the cables in the mounting plate when not playing so as not to trip over the wires.

 

I tried many variations that they suggested from the user guide but in the end it required a lot of hacking together, removing of my arm rest and using those holes to get a mounting solution. The collective is held in place now using a SINGLE M6 screw. Fortunately it is very firm with no play but I will have to make a new solution eventually. I did find a way to mount the arm rest as well, hacked together with some parts from the mounting kit as well as dismantling my arm rest holder. For proper mounting I'd suggest using a aluminum profile rig or a proper sim rig. This is my biggest criticism of the product and feels like it was poorly thought out especially given the price. 2/10

 

=======

EDIT: A week later and it's still very secure with the single M6. I'm thinking of the solution that will probably involve a custom CNC metal adapter plate but i'm not really in a big rush anymore.

 

 

Build quality:

Excellent. Grip feels rock solid. The Ka50 grip is light weight, plastic moulded but nicely finished. The edges flow nice in the hand. The buttons have a nice soft touch with slight travel. Switches are all momentary - some like it, others don't. I hate latched switches - one of the main reasons i sold my Winwing takeoff panels. The option of using either Russian or English labels was nice too - I opted for English, and there are 2 sets of both included in the box. The collective base is heavy and after mounting, feels firm with no wiggle. I'm really happy with this especially the grip. 10/10 for grip and 8.5/10 for the base.

 

 

 

 

Mechanicals

Tension adjustment is very finicky and fine tuned but can be done fairly accurately if you have the right tools. Stock out of the box, I could apply 1 finger of light pressure to push it down. I tightened it up so slightly more pressure was needed. There is a very slight stiction; slightly higher pressure is needed to overcome the initial resistance. Resistance is not completely linear, and is slightly lower in the middle of the travel range. If you use a very loose throttle like me, this may take some getting used too. 9/10

 

=====

EDIT: One week later, I've managed to tune it to where the initial resistance and travel resistance is almost similar. I also seemed to prefer the collective slightly heavy, just my own preference after flying with it for a week.

 

 

Arm position is quite natural with the collective full up in my setup. Full down, there is a slight stretch/over extension of my shoulder. YMMV depending on your setup

 

Good view of the length and appearance while mounted

 

Software

The box comes with a few leaflets requesting to launch the VPC Pre Flight page, a sort of starter guide. First time I saw this page tbh even though I have a CM3 throttle, and it advised to update the firmware and calibrate the axis. I read some reviews saying that people had issues with usage prior to doing this step. I had no issues since I RTFM so this is not an optional step. 10/10

 

Usage

Flying with a collective feels totally different compared to throttle. I have to remap my muscle memory and my flying felt imprecise. After an hour of practice, I was able to fly most aircraft reasonably well. I use the Gazelle, Hind and Huey as my main testing aircraft as these require the most precision to fly and outcome was reasonably good. The collective takes the place where you'd normally have the throttle, so I will have to shift my desk mounted throttle each time I want to fly vs jets. I fly a lot of helis so this isn't a big problem for me. 

 

Fully depressed

 

Fully elevated

 

Did it make my flying better? No, it was much worse in fact as i had to relearn how to fly. However it was so awesome looking at the in game collective of the Hind in VR and seeing it match my movements. I recommend it for helo fans, as a gaming accessory it is really fun.

 

=====

EDIT: 1 week later, it's completely natural now. The feel of adjusting the collective while practicing autos feels great. Huey Persian Gulf Ship Landing Instant mission is quite straight forward now, similar to how I remember it with the throttle before. Pulling back to increase pitch, having my left side of seat relatively opened up (instead of with the throttle blocking my way) also feels great. The look of the collective moving in VR similarly to my real arm is very immersive and enjoyable.

 

=====================================

 

Follow up 12/7/21
I can say it is build pretty well. Today i found my 4 year old daughter (she weights 14kg) sitting on the collective eating her biscuits - i was horrified. The end points were all loosened and there was some wobble. Luckily i tightened up the clutch dampers and mounting screws and it was good as new. I guess you get what you pay for... Using it one week on, i'm quite satisfied.

 

Secondly, I found the tolerances for some of the screws a bit too tight. This big M5 screw on the back plate that goes ove the 4 mounting screws was too tight to go back in, and i was afraid to strip the threads so i left it out. No big deal but it did mean that i have to ocasionally tighten the philips screws (or use some loctite).

Edited July 11, 2021 by crispy12

[zcaa0g]

"Resistance is not completely linear, and is slightly lower in the middle of the travel range."

 

Virpil may need to do a couple of revisions as usual to work out those kind of kinks.  The K-51 is very consistent on the travel range, but I like the option of different grips on the Virpil.  Tough call for me so far.  Thanks for the review!

[AKA_Clutter]

1 hour ago, crispy12 said:

https://m.facebook.com/groups/DigitalCombatSimulator/permalink/3957300021062652/

 

 

 

Did it make my flying better? No, it was much worse in fact as i had to relearn how to fly. However it was so awesome looking at the in game collective of the Hind in VR and seeing it match my movements. I recommend it for helo fans, as a gaming accessory it is really fun.

 

 

 

Looking forward to how it works after a few more flight hours.  I was hoping that it would make flying the choppers better and more immersive.  Time will tell.

 

Thanks for the quick review.

 

Hope there are more to read before mine ships.

 

[crispy12]

15 minutes ago, AKA_Clutter said:

 

Looking forward to how it works after a few more flight hours.  I was hoping that it would make flying the choppers better and more immersive.  Time will tell.

 

Thanks for the quick review.

 

Hope there are more to read before mine ships.

 

Me too, will post here when I get a few more days to play with it.

[Rick50]

I look forward to it!

[crispy12]

On 7/4/2021 at 7:43 PM, Thermal said:

I did get mine on Friday. 

 

I just put up a "review" on reddit (started as a quick impression, but then I dug into it a bit deeper based on my findings):
https://www.reddit.com/r/hotas/comments/odinhc/virpil_collective_and_lh_alpha_impressions/

 

One other guy posted some impressions on reddit/simhq:

https://www.reddit.com/r/hotas/comments/obyttd/virpil_collective_sharka50_grip_chair_mount/

I read your review and fully agree with the mounting issues. Regarding stick-tion, this is something that I didn't seem to have as bad as yours. I did spend a LOT of time tweaking the clutch dampeners, almost 45 minutes just sitting in the chair and twiddling with an allen wrench. I had to do fine movements (we're talking 1-2 degree of rotation here) to really get it where i wanted - it was always a compromise between softness and stopping it from dropping down.

I managed to get the most fine accuracy by bracing the heel of my palm against my chair and push/pulling the collective up and down. I could control the gazelle in 1 foot increments of altitude which was more than enough for my expectations. Anyone who's flown the gazelle knows how twitchy the collective is, which makes it perfect for testing. I also did some stunt bus landings with the Gazelle and Huey and it was good. I did try with the HIP and Hind but unfortunately seems like the wheel base is just a tad too big

Edited July 7, 2021 by crispy12

[crispy12]

If anyone finds out what the red USB is for... Please let me know

[MAXsenna]

If anyone finds out what the red USB is for... Please let me know

Aren't addons in the works, like correction levers etc?
Maybe I'm just dreaming, but I thought I read it somewhere.

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[Thermal]

Firstly - I have only used the 30deg cam as yet.  Its the default one.  I feel like with the Alpha grip, its going to be uncomfortable with the extra throw.  The default zero collective position is +15 degrees from horizontal.  I have increased that to about +25, which puts the Alpha grip about 5deg nose down.  Max collective is now 55deg from horizontal.  So at this point its already moving back more than its moving up at top of travel (just).

I spent only about 30 minutes trying to tweak the tension bolts.  Although I was not trying to find the perfect feel, I was trying to find out if perhaps the settings out of the box were perhaps so far out that they impacted the performance.  In the end I didnt make any improvements, and I think there was none to be found.  I am thinking I am about 90% where I want to be right now, and will tweak with experience.

I coped some flack on reddit for daring mention ARMA.  I have also done some flying in the gazelle, and with default curves all round, found the collective control in ARMA far more sensitive.  So in comparison the gazelle was, subjectively, just easier to control.  The default ARMA setup had a fairly small collective throw in the "usable hovering range", whereas the gazelle seemed to have a larger throw.  Now in ARMA I can simply apply a curve to the axis and improve the situation (and will).   You could also start using curves to expand the "middle operating range of the collective" and shrink the idle and max zones to get better effective control. 

I think my point still stands, really fine control is hard.  And tweaking in software can make the experience better, but there the physical issue remains.  Some people will probably not notice it, and its noticably better than the base Thrustmaster pedals I have.   Its important to note that I am not saying the collective is bad.  Its "good" yes, but certainly not "great". 



 

[Apar]

16 hours ago, crispy12 said:

https://m.facebook.com/groups/DigitalCombatSimulator/permalink/3957300021062652/

 

Here's my review of the collective. Check it out for pics.

 

I'll copy and paste it here

------------

 

Virpil collective (non-throttle) with Ka50 grip

First impressions and initial review

 

I received my collective today. I initially ordered 15 May, I got the confirmation of shipping of 25 June. The package actually reached my country on 28 June but thanks to the wonders of Economy shipping, was delayed till 6 July to be released. Don't order Economy shipping if you don't want couriers to intentionally delay your package!

 

Mounting

First step out of the box is to mount it. The collective chair mounts are really thick and feel stiff and solid. The measurements for bolt width used a maximum of 196mm. Mine were exactly 196 (Secret Lab Omega) but after accounting for the screw size (M6) were about 5mm too narrow for my chair. This could have been so easily remedied had they made the slots slightly longer. Another review mentioned the exact same problem.

 

I tried many variations that they suggested from the user guide but in the end it required a lot of hacking together, removing of my arm rest and using those holes to get a mounting solution. The collective is held in place now using a SINGLE M6 screw. Fortunately it is very firm with no play but I will have to make a new solution eventually. For proper mounting I'd suggest using a aluminum profile rig or a proper sim rig. This is my biggest criticism of the product and feels like it was poorly thought out especially given the price. 2/10

 

 

Build quality:

Excellent. Grip feels rock solid. The Ka50 grip is light weight, plastic moulded but nicely finished. The edges flow nice in the hand. The buttons have a nice soft touch with slight travel. The option of using either Russian or English labels was nice too - I opted for English. The collective base is heavy and after mounting, feels firm with no wiggle. I'm really happy with this especially the grip. 10/10 for grip and 8.5/10 for the base.

 

 

 

 

Mechanicals

Tension adjustment is very finicky and fine tuned but can be done fairly accurately if you have the right tools. Stock out of the box, I could apply 1 finger of light pressure to push it down. I tightened it up so slightly more pressure was needed. There is a very slight stiction; slightly higher pressure is needed to overcome the initial resistance. Resistance is not completely linear, and is slightly lower in the middle of the travel range. If you use a very loose throttle like me, this may take some getting used too. 9/10

 

Software

The box comes with a few leaflets requesting to launch the VPC Pre Flight page, a sort of starter guide. First time I saw this page tbh even though I have a CM3 throttle, and it advised to update the firmware and calibrate the axis. I read some reviews saying that ppl had issues with usage prior to doing this step. I had no issues since I RTFM so this is not an optional step. 10/10

 

Usage

Flying with a collective feels totally different compared to throttle. I have to remap my muscle memory and my flying felt imprecise. After an hour of practice, I was able to fly most aircraft reasonably well. I use the Gazelle, Hind and Huey as my main testing aircraft as these require the most precision to fly and outcome was reasonably good. The collective takes the place where you'd normally have the throttle, so I will have to shift my desk mounted throttle each time I want to fly vs jets. I fly a lot of helis so this isn't a big problem for me. 

 

 

 

Did it make my flying better? No, it was much worse in fact as i had to relearn how to fly. However it was so awesome looking at the in game collective of the Hind in VR and seeing it match my movements. I recommend it for helo fans, as a gaming accessory it is really fun.

 

 

 

I agree with mounting to a rig instead of the chair,. Only thing here is that it also eats up the space for your throttle. If only there was a fast way in swapping the two. This might need a lot of time in the drawing board for me.

[sirrah]

11 hours ago, crispy12 said:

If anyone finds out what the red USB is for... Please let me know

I asked the same question on the VIRPIL forum and got this reply from @Baur:

 

https://forum.virpil.com/index.php?/topic/2773-vpc-helicopter-collective/&do=findComment&comment=28003

Quote

We will definitely tell you about this later. Maybe this year or next. When we are ready

 

[crispy12]

6 hours ago, Apar said:

I agree with mounting to a rig instead of the chair,. Only thing here is that it also eats up the space for your throttle. If only there was a fast way in swapping the two. This might need a lot of time in the drawing board for me.

I use a desk mounted throttle and move it aside. Works so far. But I need an arm rest for use with throttle.

Edited July 7, 2021 by crispy12

[crispy12]

Added some more photos to the review above

[AKA_Clutter]

8 hours ago, crispy12 said:

Added some more photos to the review above

Thanks.

[Apar]

17 hours ago, crispy12 said:

I use a desk mounted throttle and move it aside. Works so far. But I need an arm rest for use with throttle.

 

My throttle is mounted, and I like it near my side..  Still looking for a work around. https://imgur.com/a/kEYbcpn

Edited July 8, 2021 by Apar

[crispy12]

6 minutes ago, Apar said:

My throttle is mounted, and I like it near my side..  Still looking for a work around. https://imgur.com/a/kEYbcpn

 

I've got the exact same setup - VKB mounts, gunfighter, Virpil CM3. I move my throttle mount about 20cm to the left when i fly helis (about 75% of the time). With the collective fully down, I can put the throttle in the standard position and it doesn't interfere.

Edited July 8, 2021 by crispy12

[Apar]

9 minutes ago, crispy12 said:

I've got the exact same setup - VKB mounts, gunfighter, Virpil CM3. I move my throttle mount about 20cm to the left when i fly helis (about 75% of the time). With the collective fully down, I can put the throttle in the standard position and it doesn't interfere.

 

I have already m ountem then to a profile Rig.. maybe if only I could change the 2 butterfly screws to a quick release on the UCM that would be a lot faster/easier. .

https://imgur.com/a/sHOdZ0p

I also dont like the fact that the collective is mounted to my chair. . I would rather have it mounted to the UCM

[AKA_Clutter]

UCM = Universal Chair Mount?  From Virpil or someone else?

[crispy12]

8 hours ago, AKA_Clutter said:

UCM = Universal Chair Mount?  From Virpil or someone else?

UCM is the mounting set from VKB

9 hours ago, Apar said:

I have already m ountem then to a profile Rig.. maybe if only I could change the 2 butterfly screws to a quick release on the UCM that would be a lot faster/easier. .

https://imgur.com/a/sHOdZ0p

I also dont like the fact that the collective is mounted to my chair. . I would rather have it mounted to the UCM

Nice rig

Should be easy to adjust if you do have a profile rig. I am also thinking if solutions to customised my setup, maybe some sort of quick release clamp setup

 

 

[Apar]

On 7/9/2021 at 11:00 AM, crispy12 said:

UCM is the mounting set from VKB

Nice rig

Should be easy to adjust if you do have a profile rig. I am also thinking if solutions to customised my setup, maybe some sort of quick release clamp setup

 

 

Yeah, it would be a lot easier if we had shops that offer cheap custom steel fabricators in Sg.

 

I was actually thinking of using these camera rig as quick release 

attached to the chair not sure if they would be strong enough tho.. Anybody here is into Photography and have this? Wil it have some Flex if use as a mount for a collective?

 

[crispy12]

11 hours ago, Apar said:

Yeah, it would be a lot easier if we had shops that offer cheap custom steel fabricators in Sg.

 

I was actually thinking of using these camera rig as quick release 

attached to the chair not sure if they would be strong enough tho.. Anybody here is into Photography and have this? Wil it have some Flex if use as a mount for a collective?

 

Very good idea. So far I don't have any camera mounts that would be flat enough to give the same level of rigidity so i can't give yo an answer. I've been searching Aliexpress for all sorts of clamps and attachments but haven't found anything good so far.

[jym]

That looks like it clamps onto Smallrig's 15mm-diameter carbon-fibre tubular rods; they have a wall thickness of 2mm and are effectively rigid.

Edited July 12, 2021 by jym

[Munkwolf]

Got an email from Virpil this morning mentioning my TCS Plus should be shipping out next week... excited to join the collective club