AH-64 variant which is meant to be modeled in DCS and differences between A and D gameplay-wise

[notproplayer3]

I've got a question I haven't found the answer to: how could it be that ah64's couldn't carry flares ? I mean, it seems to me as they are pretty much essential in even low intensity combat against very common IR missiles. Every chopper in DCS has them and for good cause. Did the ah64 have a totally different method of dealing with IR missiles that didn't require flares at the time or what? 

 

I don't know, this just seems pretty mind-blowing to me for some reason. 

Edited December 22, 2020 by notproplayer3

[NeedzWD40]

1 hour ago, notproplayer3 said:

Did the ah64 have a totally different method of dealing with IR missiles that didn't require flares at the time or what? 

 

Yes, the disco ball (ALQ-144) was considered the primary means of defeating IR guided missiles. Effectiveness of this IR jammer is suspect against modern IR threats, which is why you see gradual removal of it over the years.

 

As noted, it's not that they couldn't, but that they didn't need to until the past 20 years proved the necessity of it. By that point having a MLWS was also in the cards so flare buckets were just thrown in with the CMWS upgrade.

[Sandman1330]

Huh, interesting. I would have thought flares would have been higher priority, I mean the Russians learned as early as the 80s that helicopters are vulnerable to MANPADs! And given the ineffectiveness of the disco ball against anything but the earliest threats...

 

But hey, if it’s not realistic than so be it. Just blows my mind a bit...

 

And on second thought, 2002 was a freaking long time ago. God I’m getting old haha

Edited December 23, 2020 by Sandman1330

[Lurker]

Quick question, has Eagle Dynamics integrated the ground radar into the F16 or Hornet yet? (I don't own those two modules, so I really don't know)

 

I would take any inclusion of a ground radar with a serious pinch of salt, if that is not the case yet. 

[Northstar98]

2 hours ago, Lurker said:

Quick question, has Eagle Dynamics integrated the ground radar into the F16 or Hornet yet? (I don't own those two modules, so I really don't know)

 

I would take any inclusion of a ground radar with a serious pinch of salt, if that is not the case yet. 

 

F/A-18 yes (so far the basic map mode as well as the DBS and SAR modes). Sea mode is presumably coming in an upcoming major update. 

F-16 no, it only has the A/A CRM and ACM modes available.

 

The RADAR on the Apache D is a little different in that I imagine it probably supports GMTI, it also has a TWS mode but for ground targets. The radome also houses a radio interferometer, which at the basics, is a more precise RWR.

 

It should be said that the RADAR for the Apache is currently in a state of limbo.

Edited December 23, 2020 by Northstar98

[Rogue Trooper]

The Apache Radar is in Limbo on the DCS Apache or real life Apache?

 

Great info in this thread guys, keep it coming please.

[N8AHbl4]

2 часа назад, Northstar98 сказал:

It should be said that the RADAR for the Apache is currently in a state of limbo.

29 минут назад, Rogue Trooper сказал:

The Apache Radar is in Limbo on the DCS Apache or real life Apache?

 

I may not understand what you mean, but 114L and radar is confirmed and will appear after early access

[Northstar98]

50 minutes ago, Rogue Trooper said:

The Apache Radar is in Limbo on the DCS Apache or real life Apache?

 

Great info in this thread guys, keep it coming please.

 

DCS, information comes from here, which apparently came from the COO on the Russian Discord.

 

15 minutes ago, N8AHbl4 said:

I may not understand what you mean, but 114L and radar is confirmed and will appear after early access

 

I've seen differently based on Kate's comments. The AH-64D is supposedly going to be an early 2000s variant, the RADAR is unconfirmed but I imagine we'll be seeing the 114L.

 

If you've seen differently then I'd love to see it.

 

Edited December 23, 2020 by Northstar98

[FlankerKiller]

I for one would really really prefer the A model. But they wouldn't have teased it if it wasn't well on it's way. So I imagine that ship has sailed. Honestly though it won't matter as I will buy the Hind, and the Apache the day in not the hour they are released. Hopefully one day ED will go back and make the cold war/Desert Storm versions available. 

[joelsi]

@N8AHbl4 @NeedzWD40 

 

Big thanks for all the info! The M-PNVS in the teaser and the possibility of us getting a newer variant than 2002 sounds pretty good.

 

@N8AHbl4

6 hours ago, N8AHbl4 said:

 

I may not understand what you mean, but 114L and radar is confirmed and will appear after early access

Would happen to have a source for this somewhere? I've somehow missed this announcement completely 

[N8AHbl4]

17 минут назад, joelsi сказал:

Would happen to have a source for this somewhere? I've somehow missed this announcement completely 

 

[joelsi]

@N8AHbl4

 

hmm, ran that through Google translate and I wonder: does that comment imply that we'll get the APG-78 and AGM-114L or that we'll only get the radar guided AGM-114L?

[Northstar98]

5 minutes ago, joelsi said:

@N8AHbl4 @NeedzWD40 

 

Big thanks for all the info! The M-PNVS in the teaser and the possibility of us getting a newer variant than 2002 sounds pretty good.

 

@N8AHbl4

Would happen to have a source for this somewhere? I've somehow missed this announcement completely 

 

Yeah, Kate has said the opposite for the RADAR, but nothing on the 114L that I've seen, though I'd imagine an early 2000s variant would have it.

[NeedzWD40]

As a point of reference, the AGM-114L does not require the FCR to operate. It's basically an INS-ARH missile to put it plainly; tell it the general nature of the target and the approximate position to go and it will try and match the signature of what you told it to find. The FCR just makes it easier to find and prioritize targets; without it you would just use the TADS (or another data source entered into the systems) to tell the missile where to go and what target to look for.

 

The FCR itself is a complicated little gizmo so it's hard to narrow down everything about it. I'd personally just keep it basic with A/A, GMT, and terrain modes, but I realize such a solution might not be palatable to all parties involved.

[Rogue Trooper]

To the original topic of the poster, I would have also liked an A for all the reasons you mention. 

I think an A would be easier to learn and I "think" faster to react to direct threats in a more equally balanced battlefield (cockpit workload and setting systems without taking your eyes off the battlefield)...... The new DCS Longbow will no doubt school me on this topic and will probably prove me wrong, but I got a feeling staring into MFDs for a minute may not be so healthy for NOE evasive flying.

 

The Longbow will be bloody Awesome regardless!

 

  

Edited December 24, 2020 by Rogue Trooper

[GGTharos]

1 hour ago, Rogue Trooper said:

The new DCS Longbow will no doubt school me on this topic and will probably prove me wrong, but I got a feeling staring into MFDs for a minute may not be so healthy for NOE evasive flying.

 

That's what the CP/G is for.  What difference does it make staring at steam gauges or MFDs?

[Expert]

On 12/20/2020 at 7:52 PM, bies said:

According to it's pilots AH-64A was more maneuverable and powerfull due to smaller mass and higher T/W ratio.
AH-64D is less maneuverable due to increased mass of new avionics, enlarged fairings, especially milimeter radar on the mast.

 

 

64D vs 64A maneuverability 

 

Well it depends on the intelligence of the pilot sometimes

 

 

On 12/20/2020 at 7:52 PM, bies said:

AH-64A can be modelled faithfully and realistically...
..Personally i would like to have the variant which can be modelled reasonably realistically regardless of the rest.

 

Same here

Edited December 25, 2020 by Expert

[Rogue Trooper]

4 hours ago, GGTharos said:

 

That's what the CP/G is for.  What difference does it make staring at steam gauges or MFDs?

You can click a few physical steam switches blind as you know where they occupy a specific space within reality.

I do this all the time in my Sim pit for VR as all critical weapon choices are made Via toggle switches. They are simply on or off and they always occupy a space that does not change.

 

It is like actuating the left/right turn indicator in a car, the physical indicator is always there but an MFD replacement with sub menus would be dreadful don't you think?

MFDs require pressing OSBs to enter sub menus and human interaction to verify the screens have changed and are ready for the next OSB to be pressed? MFDs require attention.

I think you lack low level hell in a chopper GGTharos.

You need to work quickly and efficiently in attack choppers..... this is probably where the multicrew would be king.

 

Edited December 24, 2020 by Rogue Trooper

[GGTharos]

25 minutes ago, Rogue Trooper said:

You can click a few physical steam switches blind as you know where they occupy a specific space within reality.

I do this all the time in my Sim pit for VR as all critical weapon choices are made Via toggle switches. They are simply on or off and they always occupy a space that does not change.

 

Sure, with you so far.

 

25 minutes ago, Rogue Trooper said:

It is like actuating the left/right turn indicator in a car, the physical indicator is always there but an MFD replacement with sub menus would be dreadful don't you think?

 

Yes, which is why no one does this in either cars or helis ... or fighters in general.

 

25 minutes ago, Rogue Trooper said:

MFDs require pressing OSBs to enter sub menus and human interaction to verify the screens have changed and are ready for the next OSB to be pressed? MFDs require attention.

 

This is what you have a CP/G for, and I doubt that switching weapons would have much to do with the MFD.  Maybe, but I expect a more HOTASy approach.

 

25 minutes ago, Rogue Trooper said:

I think you lack low level hell in a chopper GGTharos.

You need to work quickly and efficiently in attack choppers..... this is probably where the multicrew would be king.

 

IMHO there's a reason for the presence of a CP/G, and also why the single pilot attack heli fad zipped right by. 

[Rogue Trooper]

Yeah we will see.

In DCS an MFD is very very new age to us chopper boys GGTharos.

You know what I am saying?

 

Lots of flash jet boys talk here with a glancing interest in choppers, but we got 70s chopper airframes in DCS..... you feel me?

And in DCS you work the pit, it is going to be interesting to see what this modern stuff brings to the stone age.

 

 

 

Edited December 24, 2020 by Rogue Trooper

[Rogue Trooper]

Advanced technology does not always mean better, It may offer a wider variety of applications for the weapon but ultimately the weapons core intent must remain unchanged.  

Edited December 24, 2020 by Rogue Trooper

[Rogue Trooper]

2 hours ago, GGTharos said:

 

Sure, with you so far.

 

 

Yes, which is why no one does this in either cars or helis ... or fighters in general.

 

 

This is what you have a CP/G for, and I doubt that switching weapons would have much to do with the MFD.  Maybe, but I expect a more HOTASy approach.

 

 

IMHO there's a reason for the presence of a CP/G, and also why the single pilot attack heli fad zipped right by. 

All the above

[Rogue Trooper]

However.

What is CP/G and how does the pilot use it to negate the laborious set programmes of the software programmer when need be?

Edited December 24, 2020 by Rogue Trooper

[NeedzWD40]

7 hours ago, Expert said:

64D vs 64A maneuverability

 

Counterpoint: AH-64D demonstration:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzKYogDjagw

 

9 hours ago, Rogue Trooper said:

I "think" faster to react to direct threats in a more equally balanced battlefield

 

Not really. The ASE suite on the AH-64D is faster at alerting to (and responding to) threats than on the older AH-64A. Data linking also makes it far easier to get a picture of the whole field, which includes both what friendly ground units have observed and what other aerial units have observed.

 

9 hours ago, Rogue Trooper said:

but I got a feeling staring into MFDs for a minute may not be so healthy for NOE evasive flying.

 

Your primary flight instrument will remain IHADSS. As a pilot, your MPDs will be used to cross reference what you IHADSS is telling you, the same as the steam gauges do on the AH-64A. For example, you might set your right MPD up to the engine page while your left MPD is set to the flight page. Or you might put a repeater of the PNVS camera on one MPD and cross reference it with the flight page. It's all entirely up to the crew and their preferences, along with the situation at hand.

 

4 hours ago, Rogue Trooper said:

You can click a few physical steam switches blind as you know where they occupy a specific space within reality.

 

Most AH-64D functions are on the collective and stick, not the MPD bezel buttons. You won't be messing with the MPDs in critical situations.

 

19 minutes ago, Rogue Trooper said:

What is CP/G and how does the pilot use it to negate the laborious set programmes of the software programmer when need be?

 

The CPG's primary purpose is to operate the sensors and weapons, with secondary navigation and communication (note that the AH-64A's EGI/GPS is located in the CPG's right console). The AH-64D allows more task trading between the two crew, so it's possible for the pilot to hand off control to the CPG to do something and vice versa. Presently, the closest analog is the F-14A/B, though it doesn't have the ability for the RIO to fly the aircraft, but much of the tasking in the AH-64 is similar. The only reason the front seat is the CPG rather than the back seat was routing the TADS feed (particularly the DVO) to the back seat would've been unnecessarily complicated.

[Madone]

3 hours ago, Rogue Trooper said:

Advanced technology does not always mean better, It may offer a wider variety of applications for the weapon but ultimately the weapons core intent must remain unchanged.  

 

I share your opinion, there's a lot of hype going on around the AH64 because it's a new gen helo but there's a whole bunch of basic tactics that are very different than what we are used to in jets, not sure some guys realize how slow and low this thing flies... as you said higher up, during NOE the pilot is 100% on trajectory and CPG is 100% trying to keep up with the mission which does get dense if you add threats. So more thing to monitor and setup is not always the best. Lock On After Launch for Hellfire though, that would be awesome!!

Lot of knowledge in this thread btw!

Edited December 25, 2020 by Madone
no backseat here!