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Am I the only one finding AAR Challenging?


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I'm average on a good day, but I can AAR all the other modules, perhaps not first go but probably more often that not, I do find the Viper a challenge.

 

The Jeff though is giving me a real headache

 

I think the problem lies with pitch sensitivity, I so much as look at the stick and it's off all over the sky. I then release to let the PIO fllatten out but the slightest touch on the stick again and boom off on the roller coaster, it's like a day at Allton Park (big funfare)

 

I can't understand it, if it was that hard there would surely be a lot of tutorials out there, but there's not.

 

The few I found seem to keep the refuelling pod center on the HUD and the drogue goes in, as most other modules. I try that and get a face full of basket, followed by the pogo and the tutorials don't seem to reflect that. Has the flight model has been tweaked since the probe was added at any point.

 

What on earth am I doing wrong bacause I sure as hell cannot figure it out. Think I've managed a connect to full in a single shot twice out of hundreds of attempts


Edited by Weegie
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AFAIK there is no special configuration I've come across. You select the AAR with a switch for Internal Tanks or All Tanks and that's it

 

Placing the aircraft in A2G mode 2 helps a bit but that's about the only control changes you can make that affect dampening, unless somebody comes by to enlighten me further

 

I still wonder about the 3 or 4 tutorials which show the aircraft being pretty stable when refuelled. It can be refuelled but it's a much more hit and miss affair for me.

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1 hour ago, Weegie said:

AFAIK there is no special configuration I've come across. You select the AAR with a switch for Internal Tanks or All Tanks and that's it

 

Placing the aircraft in A2G mode 2 helps a bit but that's about the only control changes you can make that affect dampening, unless somebody comes by to enlighten me further

 

I still wonder about the 3 or 4 tutorials which show the aircraft being pretty stable when refuelled. It can be refuelled but it's a much more hit and miss affair for me.

 

 

Putting it in attitude hold will help dampen out the inputs. According to Deka, there is not dedicated input dampening for AAR.

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I have zero issues hooking up in the Jeff. One of the reasons is probably because I fly in VR and use a control stick that has a real world pitch throw (it's extended to length that is approximate to many real fighter aircraft). I'd consider looking into adjusting pitch curves a bit to see if that helps. There are just so many HOTAS systems out there, at such a wide price point, it can be tricky to get the feel of the aircraft right for everyone without tweaking. 

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The JF-17 FCS control law is implemented line by line according to real life control block diagram, and there's no dedicated refuelling mode unfortunately (not like F-16 who switches to landing gains for refuelling). But you can place the config switch into AG2 which will reduce g/pitch-rate onset.

 

Increase the tanker speed above or equal to 315 kts also helps since the g-command system doesn't handle so well at lower speeds.


Edited by LJQCN101

EFM / FCS developer, Deka Ironwork Simulations.

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1 hour ago, Flyingeagle357 said:

 

Oh ok, suddenly this type of information isn't classified anymore? I mean...I want to believe you but that would be the first time ED or one of it's 3rd party make such a statement. 

 

The only realistic way of recreating the flight control system is to use the actual control block diagram, otherwise the devs are just 'making up' the control logic hence 'fake' the handling characteristics.

 

No statements being made doesn't mean they didn't do so. I'm familiar with the F-16 DFLCS control logic as well and I can tell DCS F-16CM has handling characteristics matching what is depicted in the corresponding block diagram. 


Edited by LJQCN101

EFM / FCS developer, Deka Ironwork Simulations.

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I may have found the problem, so first apologies to Deka

 

I was using an older mission I had for the Hornet, changed the aircraft  to the the Jeff then was executing refuel runs.

 

As I was haivng such a hard time, I changed the aircraft back to the Hornet and found that I was getting uncommanded roll input in the Hornet. There was no logic to this it would roll to the right which I trimmed it out, then it would suddenly stop, of course that then meant that my trim was now rolling the Hornet to the right.

 

All hardware was checked and everything was spot on, I was convinced initially that I was getting an uncommanded rudder input or the like. All hardware good and all control inputs were being issued from a single controller, so no doubling or Ghost inputs. So it wasn't anything connnected to HOTAS or control setup

 

I scrapped that mission and made a fresh one. All the uncommanded roll disappeared, I didn't have enough time to fully try the Jeff but it seemed more stable than before, I'll try AAR later today.

 

It's a bit of a worry as I can no longer trust old missions and means I'll need to consign quite a few to the scrapper.

 

As an aside I also noticed the graphics improved too. In my naievity I always thought missions were simply a set of instructions that were executed and therefore updates shouldn't impact on them, within reason of course. Looks like I was wrong

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12 hours ago, Weegie said:

I may have found the problem, so first apologies to Deka

 

I was using an older mission I had for the Hornet, changed the aircraft  to the the Jeff then was executing refuel runs.

 

As I was haivng such a hard time, I changed the aircraft back to the Hornet and found that I was getting uncommanded roll input in the Hornet. There was no logic to this it would roll to the right which I trimmed it out, then it would suddenly stop, of course that then meant that my trim was now rolling the Hornet to the right.

 

All hardware was checked and everything was spot on, I was convinced initially that I was getting an uncommanded rudder input or the like. All hardware good and all control inputs were being issued from a single controller, so no doubling or Ghost inputs. So it wasn't anything connnected to HOTAS or control setup

 

I scrapped that mission and made a fresh one. All the uncommanded roll disappeared, I didn't have enough time to fully try the Jeff but it seemed more stable than before, I'll try AAR later today.

 

It's a bit of a worry as I can no longer trust old missions and means I'll need to consign quite a few to the scrapper.

 

As an aside I also noticed the graphics improved too. In my naievity I always thought missions were simply a set of instructions that were executed and therefore updates shouldn't impact on them, within reason of course. Looks like I was wrong

I can can refuel a fair few aircraft in DCS and I find the JF the hardest so don’t feel so bad. 
 

I found at the beginning to learn how to refuel the JF that helped me a lot was, lock the tanker with your radar so you get the closure rate on the HUD (be aware this would be strongly against procedures if your that way inclined) then I get fairly close to the left side of the tanker and match its speed. Once I’ve done that I close at about +3 knots  with attitude hold on and I align the pod on the tankers wings with the centre of the heads up display horizontally, then as I approach the basket I DON’T take my eyes of the pod and use peripheral vision to align the top of the glass for the HUD to go through the centre of the basket (sort of slice the basket into 2 even sides). Once I connect I double tap attitude hold twice to reset it (I have attitude hold bound to a button on my throttle). I then just watch my closure rate to match the tankers speed. I usually have my throttle set to be slightly faster then the tanker and just tap my air brakes on and off to maintain my speed cause as you get heavier the more power is needed so playing around with the throttle can cause issues so I find it much easier to just use a higher power setting and leave the throttle alone.

 

that works for me every time. Now I’m better at it I no longer use the radar but it helped a lot to begin with.

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Appreciated @Blinky.ben

 

Although I can now complete a refuel, its still hit and miss.

 

The slow spool up/down time of the engine is a pain. Then the attitiude changes when coming on and off the throttle coupled to the extreme pitch sensitivity (causing the nose to yo-yo) makes this challenging for me.

 

Cannot believe how stable the Hornet is in comparison, it is stupidly easy to refuel, but the Jeff is a different kettle of fish entirely

 

I'll certainly try you're methods and tip

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On 12/20/2020 at 1:27 PM, Mustang25 said:

 

 

Putting it in attitude hold will help dampen out the inputs. According to Deka, there is not dedicated input dampening for AAR.

This was the biggest help for me, thanks for the tip.  Before I would get the never ending pitch oscillations when trying to correct altitude.  Also setting mode to a-g seemed to help dampen the controls, but would need to test more.

 

For the first time I was able to AAR last night and fill the tanks.  Even on att hold, with enough stick movement (short movements) you can get just enough altitude adjustments to creep up/down to the basket altitude, but then it more or less stays there without oscillations 👍.


Edited by 609_Relentov
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I downloaded the JF-17 to try during the current freeplay, and last night tried AAR for the first time. I agree that this one is one of the hardest aircraft in the DCS stable to refuel. I have air-refueled every refuel-able airframe - F-14, F-15, F-16, F-18, Su-33, AV8B, and A-10. I have never had so much trouble except for the AV8B, which took a few tries to get used to the refueling probe being behind the cockpit (but once hooked, the Harrier is a a piece of cake). I will certainly try the useful suggestions in this thread later tonight and see if I can get the Jeff air-refueled more consistently. 

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Reduce your flight control sensitivity, and do not try and chase the basket.

 

I found the F-14 to be about the same difficulty as the Jeff, and getting the Jeff hooked up actually helped when flying the F-14, too.

 

It's a matter of reference points and "constant bearing" approach to the basket.

 

I found the Jeff very hard at first but most it was me and not actually the aircraft. Get stable next to the tanker and get it so the basket doesn't move. Don't even try and catch it yet.

 

Once you get it so you can hold position, then try catching the basket.

 

Don't try and fly the basket, or fly the aircraft to the basket. Fly the aircraft THROUGH the basket and you'll catch it.

 

Once you're on, it's just a matter of keeping within the "box" to remain attached. The freedom you have to move is actually quite large.

 

I find the bigger problem is the thrust changes are quite large even for tiny throttle movements. This actually dwarfs any control problems for me.


Edited by Tiger-II

Motorola 68000 | 1 Mb | Debug port

"When performing a forced landing, fly the aircraft as far into the crash as possible." - Bob Hoover.

The JF-17 is not better than the F-16; it's different. It's how you fly that counts.

"An average aircraft with a skilled pilot, will out-perform the superior aircraft with an average pilot."

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AAR tricks in DCS, find a ref point on the tanker, stable your plane to this ref point. In DCS, the basket wont float around as it does in RL. You get in right position, you will  connect.

Never chase the basket, most of PIO are caused by chasing basket

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While the Jeff is easy to fly and the attitude is kept pretty stable (maybe most stable of all aircraft in DCS), tanking and A2A with guns reveals that some systems (fly by wire, engines, gun reticle) are reacting slower than in other planes. This often causes too much input from the pilot and you'll begin "pilot induced oscillations".

That is especially true for the pitch during AAR since it's also sensitive.

 

The roll you encountered in the Hornet was likely from wake vortices, the Jeff is somehow not affected by this. That's maybe on the other hand a nice advantage of the flight control system of the Jeff.


Edited by Lynnux
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Yes!! Got it refueled twice in a row - second time with no interruptions/disconnects. It's just a matter of getting used to the throttle response (which is quite sluggish). After I figured out the throttle movement, the rest was cake. Thanks guys and happy New Year!!!

Doc

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14 hours ago, uboats said:

you guys are all better than me, i never had AAR succeed 😉 

You should try VR. AAR with AG2 setting in the JF-17 is as easy as eating pie. I had major AAR problems in all modules on my 2d screen, 3d perception in VR is a game changer here, it made everything so much easier. Never ever agian flying DCS in 2d. 

 

Happy new year! 🍻

Modules: KA-50, A-10C, FC3, UH-1H, MI-8MTV2, CA, MIG-21bis, FW-190D9, Bf-109K4, F-86F, MIG-15bis, M-2000C, SA342 Gazelle, AJS-37 Viggen, F/A-18C, F-14, C-101, FW-190A8, F-16C, F-5E, JF-17, SC

 

System: Win 10 64bit, Ryzen 3800X, 32gb RAM DDR4-3200, Gigabyte Aorus 1080ti XE ,1 x Samsung SSD 970 EVO Plus 2TB NVMe, 2 x Samsung SSD 2TB + 1TB SATA, MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals - VIRPIL T-50CM and VIRPIL MongoosT-50 Throttle - Oculus Rift S, using only the latest Open Beta DCS Settings

 

 

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Here's a video of my second attempt yesterday. Tried again today and it was even smoother and easier. I still find the Jf-17 somewhat more "temperamental" than the other airframes: Today, right after the Jeff, I refueled the F-18, and the F-14 A and B. All three are easier than the Jeff. To my surprise, the F-14A was actually easier to refuel than the B (but a heck of a lot harder to trap on the carrier). The biggest problem with the Jf-17 is the sluggish engine response to throttle movement. I did not use AG2, by the way - don't seem to need it. And, yes, I agree that flying in VR makes a huge difference. There's no going back to a flat screen after you've flown VR. 🙂

 

 

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@Doc3908Funny that you also say hallo to "Bob" after refueling, i do this every time too. 😆

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Modules: KA-50, A-10C, FC3, UH-1H, MI-8MTV2, CA, MIG-21bis, FW-190D9, Bf-109K4, F-86F, MIG-15bis, M-2000C, SA342 Gazelle, AJS-37 Viggen, F/A-18C, F-14, C-101, FW-190A8, F-16C, F-5E, JF-17, SC

 

System: Win 10 64bit, Ryzen 3800X, 32gb RAM DDR4-3200, Gigabyte Aorus 1080ti XE ,1 x Samsung SSD 970 EVO Plus 2TB NVMe, 2 x Samsung SSD 2TB + 1TB SATA, MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals - VIRPIL T-50CM and VIRPIL MongoosT-50 Throttle - Oculus Rift S, using only the latest Open Beta DCS Settings

 

 

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