F16 Harm Question

[Viciam1]

Hi guys, quick question about the Harm.

When setting up the custom tables, say for examle there is a SAM nearby with a RWR CODE HK. Now looking at the  attached file, you see there are 3 different SAM's with the code HK. Do I need to enter all 3 of them in the HARM custom table in the f16? And if so, why? I think its important to understand the whys and whats. Is it because each of those 3 types of HK Sams emit a different radiation and in the WPN on the HARM radar screen you'd need to select all 3 from the table you have created for scan?

[GGTharos]

I don't know about the table, but I can tell you that each of those radars have a different purpose and they probably have enough distinguishing characteristics (frequency, PRF etc) to be individually recognizeable:

 

The SR is the search radar and concerns itself with medium and high altitude targets and the CWAR is another radar whose job it to detect low-flying targets.

The TR is the tracking radar which actually guides the missiles.   Attack this one (wait for it to lock on) and the HAWK will be unable to attack, through it can obviously provide surveillance with the other two.

[Viciam1]

I see, so TR is bascially what the sam site needs in order to guide the missile onto me in the jet? So that should be the priority target at the SAM site? Is that the same for the sa10 as well? Go for the TR ID 110? I can then irgnore the BB and CS?

SA11 for for 115 ID? What about RO?

[GGTharos]

SA10 is a bit more complex and has more than one guidance radar I think - same thing with SA-11, each TELAR has a guidance radar onboard.  The Roland is perfectly capable of taking your on using optical means (technically, so can the others but not in-game).

 

So it's all about whether you want to destroy their ability to launch things and/or blind them.   Later model SAMs are more capable and resilient, I wouldn't go up against them as a singleton.   I'd bring a dedicated SEAD flight.

[Viciam1]

so taking on an sa11 or s10 alone in an f16 is a no go? How are people taking them out in MP servers in DCS such as 4ya PVE capture the base servers?

[GGTharos]

I'm not saying it's a no-go, it's a game and usually things are made a little easier for the player, but consider that an SA-10 will happily start shooting at your missiles and you have at least a couple radars to take out usually.

 

SA-11 isn't quite as tough but again, it's a game.  A real radar operator could shut down to avoid destruction, use decoys or blinking techniques (you shoot a HARM at an offending SA-11 TELAR, another takes over to guide while your target shuts down).

 

It's up to you but whatever you do, I suggest setting some of these up in the ME and trying a simple mission against them.

[Viciam1]

Interesting, thanks a lot. So is sa10 the toughest sam in dcs? Is there a top 3 or 5 most lethal?

[Viciam1]

also, after the sa10 fires 6 missiles. Is that it run out? and then its safe to move in an destroy it or ignore it?

[Bunny Clark]

A lot of this comes down to understanding how SAM systems in general work, and then how each specific SAM system works. 

 

Generally, most SAM systems will have one or more search / surveillance /  acquisition radars who's job it is to scan the sky and find potential targets. Then the tracking radar locks on and guides missiles to the target. Killing the tracking radar will prevent the site from supporting a missile launch at any any targets, while killing the search radar will make it more difficult to find targets to engage. Some systems have multiple search radars, the Hawk and SA-10 are both examples of this, and each search radar has different abilities. In the SA-10 system for example the 64H6E Big Bird (BB) radar is the general surveillance radar and the one that will usually be looking for you. The 5N66M Clam Shell (CS) is a search radar that specializes in detecting low altitude threats and cruise missiles. 

 

Some systems work differently. The SA-11 has a single search radar that detects and hands off targets for the entire battery, and then each launcher has it's own built-in tracking radar. This makes it a particularly difficult system to defeat, as there are any many tracking radars as there are launchers. The Patriot, on the other hand, uses the same radar for both search and tracking. Hawk batteries typically have two identical tracking radars, each supporting three towed launchers. The SA-15 is a search radar, tracking radar, and launcher all on one. 

Edited December 20, 2020 by Bunny Clark

[Viciam1]

Thanks Bunny, so with the sa10 which should be the priority target? And also for the sa11?

 

Why not just try and take out the missiles on top of the trucks themselves?

[Florence201]

The priority is always the NUMBERED RWR indications. They are the threat/tracking radars

[Viciam1]

That makes sense. Secondly, in the 4ya MP server there are sams called HK. But these are not listed in the tables. So I have to manually enter the codes for these?

[Bunny Clark]

7 hours ago, Victory_1 said:

Thanks Bunny, so with the sa10 which should be the priority target? And also for the sa11?

 

Why not just try and take out the missiles on top of the trucks themselves?

 

That's a slightly complex question. Generally, the tracking radars are the priority targets, as the battery cannot guide missiles without them. But sometimes different tactics may be used against different systems. For example an SA-11 site has a single search radar and as many tracking radars as there are launchers (since each launcher has the tracking radar built in). When attacking an SA-11 site, killing the tracking radars basically means eliminating the entire battery. So for the SA-11 it's a valid tactic to kill the search radar first, crippling the battery's ability to find targets, then you work on eliminating the launchers. 

 

It also depends on what your mission is. The goal of SEAD is suppression; so long as the battery is made to not be a threat to a strike package, the SEAD mission is a success. This could mean killing the tracking or search radar, it could mean shooting some HARMs at the battery and scaring it into turning off it's radars until the package is out of the threat zone. The goal of a DEAD mission is to destroy as much of the battery as possible. A DEAD strike against a SAM site will generally start with the radars, to minimize the battery's ability to defend itself, and then the launchers and C&C vehicles will absolutely be targets. 

 

49 minutes ago, Victory_1 said:

That makes sense. Secondly, in the 4ya MP server there are sams called HK. But these are not listed in the tables. So I have to manually enter the codes for these?

HK is a Hawk site. As it's a NATO system built by the US, it's not loaded into any of the Viper's threat tables by default since it's assumed that it is friendly. Of course the US has sold Hawk systems to many nations, not all of which are friendly to the US anymore - most notably Iran. If you're going to be attacking a Hawk battery, you'll need to edit the threat tables. 

[Viciam1]

so for the SA 11 I get SDA (think)  and 11 on RWR. I can target either of those 2? And the SAM will no longer fire at me? What is 11? That is the tracking radar? And SD is the search radar?

 

Okay thank you for the explanation of the NATO systems and putting them in manually. That makes a lot of sense now.

And one more question. Say I get RO on the RWR. Now looking at the Harm codes sheet there are 2 codes for RO. 201 and 205. Do I need to enter both of these in the custom table? How do I know what to do here?

Edited December 21, 2020 by Victory_1

[Bunny Clark]

Take a look at the table you posted, the "Name" column will you exactly what device/vehicle is associated with each RWR code and table ID. 

 

An "11" is the SA-11 tracking radar, which is attached to the launchers. "SD" is the Snow Drift search radar. Typically, the tracking radars use the NATO SAM code number for the RWR ID while the search radars use an abbreviation of the NATO call name for the system.  Killing the SD will make it more difficult for the battery to find you, but it could still shoot at you. Killing an 11 will make it impossible for that launcher to shoot at you, but keep in mind like I said before an SA-11 site will have multiple launchers so you'll need to kill 2-6 11s before the sire won't be able to shoot at you anymore. 

 

Again, take a look at the names in the table. ID 205 is the search radar, and 201 is the director radar. Roland is not actually a radar guided missile, it uses command guidance with either a radar or optical tracker. 

[Xavven]

On 12/19/2020 at 3:51 PM, Victory_1 said:

also, after the sa10 fires 6 missiles. Is that it run out? and then its safe to move in an destroy it or ignore it?

IRL an SA-10 site will have multiple launchers that are spread out and away from the tracking radars. If the mission designer follows this philosophy, then taking out the launchers is hard because they aren't emitters, so your HARM won't home in on them, and they can be hidden. And the whole site would have way more than 6 shots

Edited December 23, 2020 by Xavven
typo fix

[Florence201]

On 12/22/2020 at 10:59 PM, Xavven said:

IRL an SA-10 site will have multiple launchers that are spread out and away from the tracking radars. If the mission designer follows this philosophy, then taking out the launchers is hard because they aren't emitters, so your HARM won't home in on them, and they can be hidden. And the whole site would have way more than 6 shots

 

6 TELs with 4 tubes per TEL. For realism with SA10, use the template in ME to see the layouts of the battalion. ME also has templates for other SAMs 

On 12/21/2020 at 12:40 AM, Bunny Clark said:

. 

 

Again, take a look at the names in the table. ID 205 is the search radar, and 201 is the director radar. Roland is not actually a radar guided missile, it uses command guidance with either a radar or optical tracker. 

Roland is radar guided, but has optical as a back up option. The RL issue with Roland is the TT radar is polarised in a way most RWRs can’t receive. 
 

command guided is a mode of tracking. Others are:

Semi Active

Command to Line Of Sight

[Bunny Clark]

1 hour ago, Florence201 said:

Roland is radar guided, but has optical as a back up option. The RL issue with Roland is the TT radar is polarised in a way most RWRs can’t receive. 

The Roland missile is command guided, it has no radar receiver. Ground equipment tracks the target using either an optical system or a radar system, or both in a coupled mode, and transmits guidance commands to the missile with a radio. The Roland 1 didn't even have a radar system, it was optical only. 

[Florence201]

On 12/24/2020 at 2:06 PM, Bunny Clark said:

The Roland missile is command guided, it has no radar receiver. Ground equipment tracks the target using either an optical system or a radar system, or both in a coupled mode, and transmits guidance commands to the missile with a radio. The Roland 1 didn't even have a radar system, it was optical only. 

First off, having been locked up by one of these, I can tell you it does have radar. 
 

Second, the below is taken from open source

A pulse-doppler search radar with a range of 15–18 km detects the target which can then be tracked either by the tracking radar or an optical tracker. 

 

[Bunny Clark]

6 hours ago, Florence201 said:

First off, having been locked up by one of these, I can tell you it does have radar. 
 

Second, the below is taken from open source

A pulse-doppler search radar with a range of 15–18 km detects the target which can then be tracked either by the tracking radar or an optical tracker. 

 

It's certainly possible I'm wrong. Wikipedia isn't a good source, and detailed info is difficult to find elsewhere. But as far as I can tell the missile doesn't use SARH guidance. The target is usually tracked by a radar, but as far as I can tell that radar system is then used to send command guidance signals to the missile, rather than the missile itself homing onto reflected radar signals off the target. That's how it can also operate in an optical mode, the optical tracking system is used instead of the radar tracking system to send guidance commands to the missile. 

[Florence201]

And that is the crux of a command guided system. 

[_SteelFalcon_]

1 hour ago, DCSoping said:

We can not attack HAWK missile sites with HARM yet i see ?
Nevermind lol 

 

Yes you can. Change the code in the ALIC tables via DED to the codes of the hawk. Then your HARM will be able to attack Hawk sites too

Edited April 3, 2021 by _SteelFalcon_

[AstonMartinDBS]

On 4/3/2021 at 1:31 PM, DCSoping said:

yeah i didn't think you could manually change the codes yet. Turns out you can.

Here's the link to Wags tutorial which shows, how you can customize the tables.

In this thread you can find a list of the needed threat codes.

Edited April 5, 2021 by AstonMartinDBS

[Wiggo]

What is rwr code for silkform family rdrs? 

[Raptor9]

25 minutes ago, Wiggo said:

What is rwr code for silkform family rdrs? 

Each RWR symbol and associated ALIC code are located in Appendix B in the back of the F-16 Early Access Guide.

As such, the Silkworm is not an air defense radar system and is not included in this list, nor is there a HARM code for it.