[not a bug] Using slider-type axis as radar elevation / tpod zoom doesn't work properly [controls]

[StarLightPL]

Bug description:

I have a Thrustmaster T16000M HOTAS and TWCS Throttle + pedals. I wanted to use the wheel on the throttle (JOY_SLIDER1) to control radar elevation in the Hornet. This also controls the zoom in the targeting pod, so it's very convenient to use. Sadly, the F18 module seems to treat it not as a slider, but as a continuous output axis. What this means is that at any given position of the wheel, the module is interpreting it as it was continuously pressed.

 

How to reproduce:

1. Bind the TWCS Throttle wheel (or any slider type control on any controller for that matter) from the Axis assign menu to control radar elevation.
2. Go to the radar page on the right DDI.
3. Set the wheel at it's maximum "top" position (can't go further), wait for radar antena elevation to go all the way to the top.
4. Turn the wheel (slider) halfway back.

 

Got:

Radar elevation goes all the way to the bottom, with speed of movement depending on the amount the wheel is turned.

That's because instead of interpreting it as a slider, it seems that the module interprets it as a "various strength axis". So when I only turn 1/5 of the turn the radar antena elevation will go down slower, if I turn it to the bottom maximal position, the radar antena elevation will go down faster.

 

Expected behaviour:

I would expect that when I turn the wheel / slider halfway back, radar elevation will go down to the middle and stops there. Wheel is a slider and should act like one. In other words, a fixed position on a slider control should correspond to a fixed position of the control in the game.

 

Affects:

• Radar elevation control
• Targeting pod zoom

 

Additional information:

• Please note that the wheel bound to zoom view in the F/A-18C is working perfectly fine controlling zoom as expected (halfway turn - zooms halfway). I tried binding the wheel axis to various knobs in the F/A-18C Sim, all are working correctly as one would expect - turning the wheel reflects turning the knob in the aircraft. The bug seems only to be affecting radar elevation/targeting pod zoom.
• Please note that the actual physical slider on the joystick behaves exactly the same when bound to radar elevation (bugged).
• Setting the "slider" checkbox in the axis tune menu doesn't help with the bug.

Edited December 17, 2020 by StarLightPL

[rob10]

Short version is it works that way because it's a SWITCH (well 2: up and down) and not an AXIS or rotary in the real Hornet.  Do a search, it's been discussed in detail several times. Not a bug.

[ArjenHVA]

Bind it to your flipper (JOY_RZ) on the throttle instead. That works great. 

[StarLightPL]

11 hours ago, rob10 said:

Short version is it works that way because it's a SWITCH (well 2: up and down) and not an AXIS or rotary in the real Hornet.  Do a search, it's been discussed in detail several times. Not a bug.

Agreed. Then it shouldn't be bindable as an axis. And I did a search for radar elevation and it didn't turn up in the results.

EDIT: I did a search in the bugs forum, I can see this has now been moved.

 

5 hours ago, ArjenHVA said:

Bind it to your flipper (JOY_RZ) on the throttle instead. That works great. 

That's what I did, doesn't change the fact that if what Rob10 says is the official stance then it should be kicked out of axis menu not to create confusion.

Edited December 14, 2020 by StarLightPL

[rob10]

8 hours ago, StarLightPL said:

Agreed. Then it shouldn't be bindable as an axis. And I did a search for radar elevation and it didn't turn up in the results.

EDIT: I did a search in the bugs forum, I can see this has now been moved.

 

That's what I did, doesn't change the fact that if what Rob10 says is the official stance then it should be kicked out of axis menu not to create confusion.

 

I didn't realize they had it bindable in the axis section.  I would agree it shouldn't be there if it's not working.

[Svend_Dellepude]

It's working as intended. I use the axis and have no probs at all. You just have to understand how it works.

[StarLightPL]

Congratulations on making the first on my ignore list, Svend

[StarLightPL]

21 hours ago, rob10 said:

I didn't realize they had it bindable in the axis section.  I would agree it shouldn't be there if it's not working.

This is one of these "gamey" things, that user should be able to do. Radar elevation is bindable in the axis section. Wheel or any kind of slider axis seems perfect for it. Even if it turns out that this is a spring loaded button (even analogue) that shouldn't even be present in the axis section. I think most axis commands have their button counterparts - the fact that radar elevation behaves like no other axis in the game points to either a bug or a stubborn engineer error. And I'm developing software for 20 years now, I can recognize these things by feeling

 

EDIT: come to think of it, this can also be "I'm a new developer to the team so I will implement it my way not knowing I can reuse the code" error

Edited December 15, 2020 by StarLightPL

[Svend_Dellepude]

4 hours ago, StarLightPL said:

Congratulations on making the first on my ignore list, Svend

 

Thanks you. My guess is that you will have plenty more on that list.

[Bunny Clark]

So, the real Hornet throttle has a wheel that can roll up and down. It has a center position and is spring loaded to return to center when released. It functions as an axis, the further from center it is deflected, the faster the sensor moves. In DCS it functions exactly the way it does in real life. The problem is that very few computer flight controllers have a control that works like this, and the realistic behavior is somewhat problematic on an axis that does not spring to center. 

 

I'm currently using a slider axis with a center detent for it, with the axis saturation turned down to 10% and a fairly large dead zone, and that works reasonably well. 

 

A number of people, myself included, have been asking for alternative ways to control this axis for some time now. You can read some more here: 

 

[StarLightPL]

Thanks @Bunny Clark, that's an awesome answer Yeah it seems like binding it to paddle control on the TWCS Throttle as @ArjenHVA suggested is the only sane way to go. I'm lucky to have that control on my stick unoccupied, as I have rudder pedals. This example clearly shows how bad ED needs to hire an User Experience guy. At least they were sane enough to introduce a toggle for "(un)realistic TDC slew", this could be the other one. Btw. this just echoes that topic you linked - all points you raised there are valid.

[Machalot]

Thanks for this thread. I just discovered this quirk and it has been very frustrating to understand. Using the paddle sounds like a good workaround. I use it for rudder right now but I can add a modifier. 

[Brun]

Edit - thought I was posting this in the other thread

Edited January 15, 2021 by Brun

[kengou]

You can bind things however you prefer of course, but I do want to point out the TWCS button layout is based on the Hornet's throttle. It has a light grey two-way switch next to the TDC cursor that corresponds directly with the radar elevation on the real Hornet throttle.

[Machalot]

20 minutes ago, kengou said:

You can bind things however you prefer of course, but I do want to point out the TWCS button layout is based on the Hornet's throttle. It has a light grey two-way switch next to the TDC cursor that corresponds directly with the radar elevation on the real Hornet throttle.

Interesting to know that. I use that switch for the airbrake on every jet. I wonder if the airbrake can be mapped to an axis so they can just be swapped.  I'll check tonight. 

[kengou]

57 minutes ago, Machalot said:

Interesting to know that. I use that switch for the airbrake on every jet. I wonder if the airbrake can be mapped to an axis so they can just be swapped.  I'll check tonight. 

I believe airbrake is a button on every aircraft. JoystickGremlin can change axis input into a button though if you want to go that route.