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How do you land the viper without running out of runway


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1 hour ago, FoghornF16 said:

If DCS doesn't sim that correctly, then obviously do that instead... land and jump on the binders immediately.

 

 I actually have no issues getting the bird stopped in time, just wanted to help out whoever is struggling by posting the findings of the Grim Reapers. I myself prefer aero braking for authenticity reasons.

What I really struggle with whoever is the jet pulling to the side on take-off and during braking phase when landing. Already at what I would call low wind (5 m/s) I have to apply half of my possible rudder deflection to stay on a straight line during take off and when landing I kind of only use one wheel brake to counteract its pulling tendency not run off the side of the runway.  Would be nice to know an expert's opinion on how realistic this is currently modelled.

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1 minute ago, Donglr said:

...
What I really struggle with whoever is the jet pulling to the side on take-off and during braking phase when landing. Already at what I would call low wind (5 m/s) I have to apply half of my possible rudder deflection to stay on a straight line during take off and when landing I kind of only use one wheel brake to counteract its pulling tendency not run off the side of the runway.  Would be nice to know an expert's opinion on how realistic this is currently modelled.

It's not, brother.  The jet rolls straight as an arrow on its gear, and if it doesn't you take it back to the chocks and hand it back to maintenance.  Crosswind has to get pretty stiff before you'll see a weathervaning tendency on takeoff/landing roll... 5 m/s shouldn't even be noticed, IMO.  More like 15+ -ish knot direct cross before you will start seeing significant yawing tendency due to weathervaning.

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24 minutes ago, FoghornF16 said:

The jet rolls straight as an arrow on its gear, and if it doesn't you take it back to the chocks and hand it back to maintenance.  Crosswind has to get pretty stiff before you'll see a weathervaning tendency on takeoff/landing roll... 5 m/s shouldn't even be noticed, IMO.  More like 15+ -ish knot direct cross before you will start seeing significant yawing tendency due to weathervaning.

Are you talking about IRL or DCS?  In DCS I always get a pull to the right on the takeoff roll.

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Usually that’s a sign of using the rudders to the stops or using too much NWS

In heavy airplanes like the KC-10 you use the rudders on the ground but not to the stops

Our planes are old and bent

I used to tell the guys I teach to finesse the rudders and be nice to the jet


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AAR is an art of patience and not having the student kill you which happens all the time


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Interestingly I was in the aerobrake camp until it was shown that what happens in the sim is that the sim prefers to get on three wheels as soon as possible to make the overall stopping distance as short as possible. I think the quoted distance all told was about .65 NM for 3 wheels and .75NM for aerobraking until nose down. The tests weren't amazingly detailed, but its still some data.
Hearing that aerobraking is more effective in stopping distance IRL means that the sim has some work in this regard.
I think the same is true of the Mirage 2000C module, this is probably an "edge of envelope" example where FM's tend to deviate from published data.
The great thing is, you can know this and still (attempt to) do it the right way without any major logic flaws or feeling of shame, but be prepared to defend your choice of doing it the less effective way in the sim. 🙂

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Didn't know what all the fuss was about landing until I came across some wind in missions.  Even with 4kts crosswind, this thing fishtails like crazy.  I had to fine tune rudder.

Take off is bad too.  As soon as I turn off nose wheel steering, it turns even more and violently.

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1 hour ago, Pikey said:

Interestingly I was in the aerobrake camp until it was shown that what happens in the sim is that the sim prefers to get on three wheels as soon as possible to make the overall stopping distance as short as possible. I think the quoted distance all told was about .65 NM for 3 wheels and .75NM for aerobraking until nose down. The tests weren't amazingly detailed, but its still some data.
Hearing that aerobraking is more effective in stopping distance IRL means that the sim has some work in this regard.
I think the same is true of the Mirage 2000C module, this is probably an "edge of envelope" example where FM's tend to deviate from published data.
The great thing is, you can know this and still (attempt to) do it the right way without any major logic flaws or feeling of shame, but be prepared to defend your choice of doing it the less effective way in the sim. 🙂

One of the main reason they don’t just lower the nose and jump on the brakes IRL is also because of how punishing it is to the brakes.

 

We don’t have to deal with overheating brakes or wheels blowing their fuse plugs as you taxi clear of the runway.

 

Aerobraking is “free”.

 

if DCS modelled brake temps and blown tyres from overheating brakes then aerobraking would be a no brainer.  

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1 hour ago, Deano87 said:

One of the main reason they don’t just lower the nose and jump on the brakes IRL is also because of how punishing it is to the brakes.

 

We don’t have to deal with overheating brakes or wheels blowing their fuse plugs as you taxi clear of the runway.

 

Aerobraking is “free”.

 

if DCS modelled brake temps and blown tyres from overheating brakes then aerobraking would be a no brainer.  

Well that is contrary to the F-16 IP's statement in this post, he specifically says its more effective than the brakes.
https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/255097-how-do-you-land-the-viper-without-running-out-of-runway/?do=findComment&comment=4530256

 

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In the real thing, if you don't use aerobraking, you will kill your brakes and end in the grass. It was called light weight fighter for a reason, that is especially true with the wheel brakes.
- Don't use the rudder to counter crosswinds. The viper lands with the stick, be gentle with the rudder. Just put her down gently, wings level and "crab". (read: https://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9288 ) If you are a pro, you can use the rudder to straighten the nose right before touchdown but... You should have some training when doing so.

- Flare a little, touch down gently. If you miss that area where all the rubber sticks on the tarmac by quite some amount, go around.

- Pop speedbrakes (I have these open as soon as I lower the gear), throttle to idle- from this point on (main wheels on the ground), you might use the rudder to keep direction.

- Pull the nose up to an AOA of about 13° (green indicator, watch the gun cross)

- When speed reaches about 90-100kts, gently put the nose wheel to the ground (I go with 90kts most of the time)

- When the nose wheel is on the ground, gently apply brake pressure und pull the stick back for maximum aerodynamic braking. Do not apply full brake pressure to avoid skidding (which will probably throw you off course a little) if you don't have to.

- Down to ~40-50kts, apply NWS with the uncage button.

Be gentle as if it was your girlfriend.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Minimum run landing technique is to apply maximum practical brakes in the two-point attitude after touchdown. Due to the torque this applies the nose comes down rather quickly. Aerobraking down to ~100 kt is the normal landing technique. Minimum run technique is different and the airplane does not spend as much time in the two point attitude.

 

Consult your brake energy chart but typically an end-of-mission weight airplane can use minimum run landing technique without exceeding the green zone.

 

The speed brakes should not be extended past 43° until the airplane is in the three point attitude.

 

The airplane has anti-skid which when operating normally should be utilized with maximum pilot input down to some low speed where it no longer works (25 kt or less).

 

It is not recommended to engage NWS faster than normal taxi speed unless needed to maintain on the runway.

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  • 1 month later...

Similar subject and a question, from current dcs viper freshman perspective... Is f-16 in real life such a soft and sleazy in steering while doing a final glide around 150kts? I find it hard to keep it going straight line, it goes more like a boat, sinking or very slowly waving left-or-right. Even with ultra-short trim touches, it gains strong momentum out of the slightest tap of the trim. Is my setting wrong or is it how should be in f-16? I did hundreds of landings in dcs a-10 and f-18 and both of them seemed more rigid on the glidescope, all the way to the end. F-16 is soft as a big, slow balloon full of water. Isn't its small airframe guided by fly-by-wire enough to make landing iron-dead-on to the very end, even with low speeds?

I am using Saitek x52 with some minor tweaks on curves (but not on the trim).

 

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On 1/11/2021 at 8:27 AM, Pikey said:

Interestingly I was in the aerobrake camp until it was shown that what happens in the sim is that the sim prefers to get on three wheels as soon as possible to make the overall stopping distance as short as possible. I think the quoted distance all told was about .65 NM for 3 wheels and .75NM for aerobraking until nose down. The tests weren't amazingly detailed, but its still some data.
Hearing that aerobraking is more effective in stopping distance IRL means that the sim has some work in this regard.
I think the same is true of the Mirage 2000C module, this is probably an "edge of envelope" example where FM's tend to deviate from published data.
The great thing is, you can know this and still (attempt to) do it the right way without any major logic flaws or feeling of shame, but be prepared to defend your choice of doing it the less effective way in the sim. 🙂


Aerobraking isn't more effective IRL, in fact the brakes are the most effective way to stop. The problem is IRL the breakes build up a lot of heat, plus the brakes of the F16 are small so aerobraking is the solution.

I usually don't have problems to stop the jet on the runway, except when there's crosswind I tend to lock the wheels since the plane goes to a side and its easier to lock, the breaking efficiency is lower.

Of course landing on really short runways its difficult (if not impossible) with some weight.

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