How do you land the viper without running out of runway

[bbrz]

On 12/25/2020 at 8:29 AM, KalAbaddon said:

I do not have any pics of a speed brake strike (could of sworn I did),  but I got some of a stabilator strike on landing!
 

Might have happened during a landing like this one....

Aviator Anil Chopra auf Twitter: "They were lucky to survive of that tail strike in rainy day and wet RWY #F16 https://t.co/dp44jfVWcE @fighterpics" / Twitter

[KalAbaddon]

iirc it was on a clean weather day,  just a bad landing.  Happened at Shaw AFB ~2008 give or take a couple years.

[ruddy122]

The C-17 has the flaps blown by the jet engines

You need more thrust to give you more air for the flaps

If you reduce thrust the air for the flaps is not there and your plane flies like a paperweight

The T-1 and KC-10 doesn’t have that problem cause you don’t need jet thrust to make the Flaps more effective you can reduce thrust without affecting the wing

You shoot for a speed from the checklist which is 1.3Vs

I used to use 1.3Vs+5

The KC-10 min runway is 7000 FT


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[ruddy122]

Spangdahlem Vipers used to take out approach lights

The reason why is Spangs runway is on the top of a hill so you can go below the airfield if there is bad weather

Guys have done it in good weather

Spang is a challenging airport


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[bbrz]

44 minutes ago, ruddy122 said:

The C-17 has the flaps blown by the jet engines
If you reduce thrust the air for the flaps is not there and your plane flies like a paperweight

The T-1 and KC-10 doesn’t have that problem cause you don’t need jet thrust to make the Flaps more effective you can reduce thrust without affecting the wing
 

The reason why the C-17 uses increased thrust is due to the fact that their pilots apparently don't flare and thrust increase is the only way to reduce the ROD.

You could theoretically land e.g. a 767 that way as well. In fact there are pilots who use a thrust increase during the flare with 'conventional' jets.

 

I'd still like to know why you are stating that the T-1 and KC-10 are landing in a stalled condition. 

Edited December 27, 2020 by bbrz

[ruddy122]

You flare throttles idle and around 8 deg nose up

That’s how I used to fly the 10

Aero brake don’t do it use your wing TRs instead

Number 2 is tough to get at Outstations

According to Semper Viper the Viper wants to keep flying around 105 knots

That’s why Viper Drivers wants to fly it down to keep it on the ground

Way back when the First F-16 was gonna do a high speed taxi test but the thing got off the ground

Luckily a Test Pilot was at the controls and did a quick pattern and Full Stop


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Basically to land the 10

Spoilers are armed

They let go once the Mains touch if not you’ll never land on the first 3000 ft of runway

You do landing attitude demos with the Spoilers Disarmed

So if you touch you don’t accidentally activate the spoilers


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[ruddy122]

I’m finally landing the Viper

FoghornF16 technique of landing the viper works for me

Also use the Wheel Brake as a Tap or an Axis also works

Keep in mind under wet conditions you need more runway why RCR23 vs RCR10 you have less grip when the runway is wet

Even the best pilots can get hurt

A Thunderbirds pilot was hurt in Dayton when a freak wind blew the plane off the runway while landing the viper


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[ruddy122]

Hold On to your hats the USAF taught flyers like me Control & Performance

AFI 11-217 goes into great detail but the ADI is extremely important


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[Slug72]

On 12/27/2020 at 9:53 PM, ruddy122 said:

Way back when the First F-16 was gonna do a high speed taxi test but the thing got off the ground

Luckily a Test Pilot was at the controls and did a quick pattern and Full Stop

 

"I just powered it up, let go of the controls, and let it fly away."  

 

The Viper always wants to fly. Get the AOA/flare/idle wrong and she'll happily balloon along the runway under ground effect until Hell freezes over. We've all been there. 

 

[DoctorVixen]

The trick is to get proficient at aerobraking because thats the best brakes there are for the f16. basically keep pulling up the nose and maintain 13 degrees during the first fase of the landing, as you slow down you need to increase the pull, when its no longer possible to keep the nosewheel up start using the brakes (fase2), i keep pulling on the stick to maximize drag on surfaces.

The lighter you are the easier it is to land.

 

flying at 105 knots is way too low, the plane becomes too unresponsive. come in with speedbrakes out at about 160-180 knots, cut the throttle when you are close to the runway, and focus keep that cross at 13 degrees, and using ailerons to stay on the runway.

Also, i think learning to land at 105 knots is dangerous, I would stick to landing the viper the same way it lands in real life, once you feel it it will work out. She lands very elegant, but it's tricky. 

Edited December 29, 2020 by DoctorVixen

[ruddy122]

The plane still flies at 105

I use Foghorns gouge as a cross check
140 + 4 For Each 1000 lbs of fuel

For Example if your fuel weight is 5000 the lowest you should get is 160
140 + 20 (4*5) = 160


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[Deano87]

3 hours ago, ruddy122 said:

I use Foghorns gouge as a cross check
140 + 4 For Each 1000 lbs of fuel

For Example if your fuel weight is 5000 the lowest you should get is 160
140 + 20 (4*5) = 160

 

Or just fly AoA and it sorts it all out for you with no math required.

[bbrz]

Ruddy122 mentioned that he's using the formula just to crosscheck, which is a good idea and should be common practise IMO.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 30, 2020 by bbrz

[Deano87]

6 hours ago, bbrz said:

Ruddy122 mentioned that he's using the formula just to crosscheck, which is a good idea and should be common practise IMO.

Yeah, good point.

Edited December 30, 2020 by Deano87

[ruddy122]

I could land the viper safely at Batumi with 1000 ft to 500 ft to spare

Now if my wingman doesn’t shoot me down

Reminds me of Dos Gringos Two’s Blind and the Wingman Song


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[bbrz]

Without knowing the weight/approach speed, this doesn't mean a lot...

Edited January 1, 2021 by bbrz

[ruddy122]

The key is 5-6000 lbs of fuel

Approach around 170 or less

Aim for threshold and land within first 500 ft of Runway and 80% brakes

You can land in any 8000 ft field


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[ruddy122]

Even though I like both the Viper and the Hornet I like the Viper even more

Less to Memorize than the Hornet in Air to Air and more challenging to land right now

Landing on the boat is hard enough but landing in an FSU (Former Soviet Union) airfield is challenging enough in the Viper

Once the Viper has JDAMS and JSOW it’ll be a force to reckon not only is it deadly now but more deadly in the future


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[ruddy122]

The key for me is fuel

If your fuel is less than 4000 lbs you can land safely in Kobuleti and Batumi no problem

Senaki I haven’t figured out yet but I’m thinking 3000 or less to land in a7500 ft strip

You have to Aerobrake and Don’t lock the Wheel Brakes

The viper you have to concentrate until it stopped don’t be complacent or the plane will bite you


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[FoghornF16]

On 12/26/2020 at 11:41 PM, bbrz said:

I'm curious where these misleading statements come from that you land a KC-10, T-1A (or any other jet) in a stalled condtion.

 

When using a normal approach speed and sink rate you can land the C-17 like every jet without the need to increase thrust.

 

Why would a F-16 student pilot wait for the wing to stall since he knows that the stall AoA is well above any touchdown AoA?

 

I've noticed this on other forums that the term 'stalled' is being used a lot, mainly (or even exclusively) by US pilots, when it's about landing/touchdown without referring to an actual aerodynamic stall.

 

 

 

 

"Why would an F-16 student pilot wait for the wing to stall since he knows that the stall AoA is well above any touchdown AoA?"

Well, because the F-16 student just got done flying 300-hours worth of training in the T-38, which (when done correctly) does stall at touchdown, believe me.  And while the student will know... academically, at zero altitude and zero knots... that the AoA Limit is well above the landing AoA, when they are crossing the threshold for the first time in the F-16 that's not what they remember.  "Hands-of-the-Habit-Pattern" take over, because everything else they've done today in their first Viper sortie flies exactly like the T-38.  So they try to land it like a T-38.

They've had academics on it.  The IP prior to the sortie has briefed it until he's blue in the face.  But they still do it, because human nature dictates they can't help but do anything else.  It provides the IPs an endless source of humor, and to the students' credit by the second attempt they have it wired tight.

After all... it is called "training".  If they could do it right on the first attempt, we'd call it "proficiency"

 

Edited January 5, 2021 by FoghornF16

[bbrz]

Thanx for taking time for the detailed explanation. Makes perfect sense 

Edited January 6, 2021 by bbrz

[Deano87]

Foghorn,

Does the real aircraft hold an aerobrake attitude by itself once you've got it to where you want it? Currently in the sim we need to keep increasing pitch input to hold the correct aerobraking AoA, But I've heard from various places that the real jet kinda stays where you put it in that ragard, any input on the matter?

[Donglr]

The Grim Reapers tried to answer the question if aerobraking helps. Answer is no, going directly to wheel brakes makes for a shorter landing. This is in the DCS universe obviously and real world aero braking technique is for reducing wheel brake wear, but if you struggle to get the bird stopped maybe this is something to consider.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqI8uvbBKss&list=PL3kOAM2N1YJcXK052YLROS5fo4m4lkrpG&index=5

[FoghornF16]

6 hours ago, Deano87 said:

Foghorn,

Does the real aircraft hold an aerobrake attitude by itself once you've got it to where you want it? Currently in the sim we need to keep increasing pitch input to hold the correct aerobraking AoA, But I've heard from various places that the real jet kinda stays where you put it in that ragard, any input on the matter?

Deano87,
Nope, you have to hold the nose up in that attitude with increasing back-stick pressure as the airspeed rolls off.  The nose will naturally drop as you slow around 100 KCAS (with you holding full aft stick like you are trying to rip the stick outta the dash) as the stabilators lose authority and depending on landing weight... a really light jet (air-to-air config and almost outta gas) I've seen the nose stay up until 88-ish, 87-ish KCAS.

 

3 hours ago, Donglr said:

The Grim Reapers tried to answer the question if aerobraking helps. Answer is no, going directly to wheel brakes makes for a shorter landing. This is in the DCS universe obviously and real world aero braking technique is for reducing wheel brake wear, but if you struggle to get the bird stopped maybe this is something to consider.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqI8uvbBKss&list=PL3kOAM2N1YJcXK052YLROS5fo4m4lkrpG&index=5

Donglr,
Again, I can't attest to the accuracy of DCS's simulation of the universe.  Real-world, aerobraking is NOT to save the wheelbrakes.  Per T.O. 1F-16CM-1, Aerobraking is more effective (e.g. reduces speed faster) than wheelbraking above 100 KCAS.  Once the nose is down, FULL aft stick (so the stabs are in full deflection to act like giant speedbrakes) and full speedbrake (hold the switch against the springed 'open' position to override to the 60-deg open position) and MODERATE wheelbraking until below 70 KCAS, where the P-pages in the -1 say you can honk on the brakes as hard as you want without fear of heating them up excessively.

If DCS doesn't sim that correctly, then obviously do that instead... land and jump on the binders immediately.

[Deano87]

1 minute ago, FoghornF16 said:

If DCS doesn't sim that correctly, then obviously do that instead... land and jump on the binders immediately.

Nahh... aerobraking is more fun  specially in a crosswind.

 

Thanks for you input about holding the right AoA.