within expected cep [CORRECT AS-IS] CCIP Bugged?

[Al-Azraq]

42 minutes ago, NineLine said:

Smaller you say?

Evil cows raiding NTTR... anyways you can see they are not perfect, nor should they be but I feel all three hits were well within expected distance from the target, especially one that was super hard to see.

 

 

 

Thanks again! But note that I'm more of a rare meat guy haha

 

Now, in all seriousness, obviously it is fine on your end. I have been watching my video and yours in order to see if there's any weapon setup difference and I can't spot one. Also, my approach looks stable and still my bombs are completely off. It is not just me as I said before, I posted this on Reddit and here and there's a lot of people noticing the same.

 

I observe in your videos that you have the X-Ray damage layout, maybe you are not in the same build as we are?

 

Best regards,

Edited December 17, 2020 by Al-Azraq

[NineLine]

No, same build I have the debug screens activated on release versions as well for checking user issues.

[Al-Azraq]

5 minutes ago, NineLine said:

No, same build I have the debug screens activated on release versions as well for checking user issues.

 

Hmmm I'm releasing about 10.000 ft. ASL and you are releasing around 8.000 ft. Maybe it has something to do... I don't know, I'll test it later today or tomorrow.

 

But in a closer look I release my second bomb at 8.000 ft. ASL and still overshoot, maybe I should try with more gentle dive.

 

Thanks for helping Nineline.

Edited December 17, 2020 by Al-Azraq

[NineLine]

Just remember to not try and shoot for perfection dead on hits every time, its not laser guided, putting the thing on the thing and pushing the button isn't always perfect

[Stearmandriver]

NineLine, thanks for checking this out.  I agree that I've not been able to duplicate this recently either, but I wanted to ask about changing the tag of the thread to Correct as Is.  I know we've discussed a few different issues on this thread, but my original one was about the "crooked" or offset CCIP line that sometimes happens. 

 

If you reference my post here on page one of this thread, you can see a picture.  The plane is in about a 35 degree dive, almost wings level but slightly banked left, so if anything the CCIP line should be slightly tilted left.  And yet, it's tilted significantly right.  The bombs were pickled on the power plant and missed FAR left.

 

This isn't correct behavior, is it? Can you think of anything on my end that could have caused it?  (Warm start on carrier, AINS alignment displayed, switch in IFA).  I honestly can't see how it could be an INS alignment problem without the attitude instrumentation being wrong as well, but maybe I'm missing something. 

 

Thanks...

 

[Santi871]

It's a bug related to aligning on a moving carrier, I've already reported it a little while ago. I'm not sure how to fix it exactly if you it happens other than maybe trying a full realignments once in flight.

Edited December 17, 2020 by Santi871

[Joni]

1 hour ago, Santi871 said:

It's a bug related to aligning on a moving carrier, I've already reported it a little while ago. I'm not sure how to fix it exactly if you it happens other than maybe trying a full realignments once in flight.

 

 

Do we have to wait until next year to see this fixed?

[Stearmandriver]

Here's an interesting thing that may or may not be related: today I was watching Mover's video of the HUD footage of the viper pilot evading 6 SAMs in Desert Storm (at 13:26 if interested), and I saw exactly what we're seeing: his CCIP line extended down to the right at a good angle in wings level flight.  The only thing I could think of that would cause this (minus significantly uncoordinated flight which we can probably rule out) is wind, but that should be accounted for by shifting the VV... unless the HUD is caged.  His HUD looks like it might be caged (based on the VV being in the center, I do not know the viper systems at all), and looking at the screenshot I caught of it on page one of this thread, my HUD looks like it might be caged too, for the same reason.  There's no ghost VV though, but this was a Liberation mission and they're rarely if ever zero wind, so unless I happened to be lucky enough to have a straight headwind or tailwind, you wouldn't expect my VV to be dead in the center of my HUD where it is.

 

So: can the viper cage the HUD in air-to-ground mode?

 

The hornet shouldn't be able to, and I just tried a quick test but couldn't make it happen... but I wonder if this bug is somehow related to a combination of actions and mode switches that allows the HUD to cage in air-to-ground mode?

[oldcrusty]

2 hours ago, Stearmandriver said:

Here's an interesting thing that may or may not be related: today I was watching Mover's video of the HUD footage of the viper pilot evading 6 SAMs in Desert Storm (at 13:26 if interested), and I saw exactly what we're seeing: his CCIP line extended down to the right at a good angle in wings level flight.  The only thing I could think of that would cause this (minus significantly uncoordinated flight which we can probably rule out) is wind, but that should be accounted for by shifting the VV... unless the HUD is caged.  His HUD looks like it might be caged (based on the VV being in the center, I do not know the viper systems at all), and looking at the screenshot I caught of it on page one of this thread, my HUD looks like it might be caged too, for the same reason.  There's no ghost VV though, but this was a Liberation mission and they're rarely if ever zero wind, so unless I happened to be lucky enough to have a straight headwind or tailwind, you wouldn't expect my VV to be dead in the center of my HUD where it is.

 

So: can the viper cage the HUD in air-to-ground mode?

 

The hornet shouldn't be able to, and I just tried a quick test but couldn't make it happen... but I wonder if this bug is somehow related to a combination of actions and mode switches that allows the HUD to cage in air-to-ground mode?

 

In some of the Viper blocks BFL leans downwind, FPM is on the upwind side.  I don't see why the Hornet would do this. I haven't seen this in the self made missions. I don't fly any ED pre-made missions. Why? I have no idea

[Frederf]

On 12/18/2020 at 8:44 PM, Stearmandriver said:

So: can the viper cage the HUD in air-to-ground mode?

It can force the FPM centered (but at the same FPA) using the drift cut-out switch. That would have the effect of a weirdly slanted PBIL.

[Stearmandriver]

On 12/20/2020 at 3:17 PM, Frederf said:

It can force the FPM centered (but at the same FPA) using the drift cut-out switch. That would have the effect of a weirdly slanted PBIL.

Thanks.  That seems to be what's shown in the HUD cam footage from the viper, and is exactly the same thing I've occasionally seen in the Hornet.  As far as I know, it should be impossible to cage the HUD in A/G mode, but that seems to be what's been happening... and it makes a lot more sense than an IRS mis-alignment that affects the bomb fall line but no other attitude or position data! 

[Al-Azraq]

 

So I have been testing more, I even tested setting the mission date on 1985 to force GPS off but with the same results. Tried also the default dumb bombing mission in Caucasus with the very same result, 4 drops and none hit.

 

Now, jump into the A-10C and you can consistently destroy small units with Mk. 82s. Also please note that it was my first time doing CCIP bombing with the A-10C (I know, I have to practice more) but even in that case, I am hitting the targets without issues:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fX_FDQ80R8&feature=youtu.be

 

If this is intentioned and there's a nerf on CCIP accuracy coming for all planes and the F-18C is the testbed, then I understand. But if not, there's something wrong for sure.

A10C CCIP.trk Hornet CCIP bug Caucasus.trk

[Joni]

5 hours ago, Al-Azraq said:

 

So I have been testing more, I even tested setting the mission date on 1985 to force GPS off but with the same results. Tried also the default dumb bombing mission in Caucasus with the very same result, 4 drops and none hit.

 

Now, jump into the A-10C and you can consistently destroy small units with Mk. 82s. Also please note that it was my first time doing CCIP bombing with the A-10C (I know, I have to practice more) but even in that case, I am hitting the targets without issues:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fX_FDQ80R8&feature=youtu.be

 

If this is intentioned and there's a nerf on CCIP accuracy coming for all planes and the F-18C is the testbed, then I understand. But if not, there's something wrong for sure.

A10C CCIP.trk 1.85 MB · 1 download Hornet CCIP bug Caucasus.trk 2.67 MB · 1 download

 

@NineLine there should not be such a difference between the a10c and the hornet. Even less if one of them has AGR.

[Al-Azraq]

1 hour ago, Joni said:

 

@NineLine there should not be such a difference between the a10c and the hornet. Even less if one of them has AGR.

 

Yeah, and especially taking into account that I have dozens of hours in the F-18C and in the A-10C this was my first CCIP bombing run. And I mean, my VERY first.

[Svend_Dellepude]

On 12/16/2020 at 8:19 PM, Al-Azraq said:

Hey guys!

 

As promised, I attach the track file showing the bug using the Nevada map and the official included mission. Both bombs miss even though the release conditions were good. This bug can be reproduced 100% of the time.

 

Also this is the video evidence:

 

 

Hornet CCIP bug.trk 1.61 MB · 8 downloads

 

The issue here relates to a high G turn which will skew the fall line in the opposite direction of the turn. @NineLine didn't do that in his test therefor he doesn't get this issue. Look a 1:16 in the above vid, where you will notice the fall line snap back to center.

[Joni]

5 minutes ago, Svend_Dellepude said:

 

The issue here relates to a high G turn which will skew the fall line in the opposite direction of the turn. @NineLine didn't do that in his test therefor he doesn't get this issue. Look a 1:16 in the above vid, where you will notice the fall line snap back to center.

 

No, that a different issue. This thread got really mixed up.

 

One issue is the INS totally bugged right now.

 

Another issue is the CCIP behavior that has changed from build to build. It is clear that the CCIP no longer works like the a10c and no longer works like the hornet used to work two months ago.

 

Bug or not? I don't know, but I do know it has changed. When you fly a lot a single module you notice differences very easy.

Edited December 22, 2020 by Joni

[Svend_Dellepude]

We are talking about the fall line skewed off to the side, right?

 

Anyway...

 

Here are some tracks. Choosing POS/GPS on the HSI seems to solve the problem.

 

POS/INS only will degrade CCIP over time and never recover.

POS/AINS will degrade CCIP instantly after a maneuver but will recover after a short period of time.

POS/GPS will not degrade CCIP when maneuvering.

 

EDIT EDIT: I did drop some bombs in GPS only and they landed where expected. So did INS until enough time had passed. but AINS was instantly broken with first maneuver. 

 

CCIP 1982 NO GPS.trk CCIP AINS.trk CCIP GPS.trk

Edited December 22, 2020 by Svend_Dellepude

[Stearmandriver]

Interesting... now we're getting somewhere!  I'll try those conditions out tomorrow, but thanks for the research. 

[Al-Azraq]

19 hours ago, Svend_Dellepude said:

We are talking about the fall line skewed off to the side, right?

 

Anyway...

 

Here are some tracks. Choosing POS/GPS on the HSI seems to solve the problem.

 

POS/INS only will degrade CCIP over time and never recover.

POS/AINS will degrade CCIP instantly after a maneuver but will recover after a short period of time.

POS/GPS will not degrade CCIP when maneuvering.

 

EDIT EDIT: I did drop some bombs in GPS only and they landed where expected. So did INS until enough time had passed. but AINS was instantly broken with first maneuver. 

 

CCIP 1982 NO GPS.trk 445.13 kB · 0 downloads CCIP AINS.trk 932.76 kB · 0 downloads CCIP GPS.trk 602.21 kB · 0 downloads

 

Interesting! I will try to test later.

[Joni]

20 hours ago, Svend_Dellepude said:

We are talking about the fall line skewed off to the side, right?

 

Anyway...

 

Here are some tracks. Choosing POS/GPS on the HSI seems to solve the problem.

 

POS/INS only will degrade CCIP over time and never recover.

POS/AINS will degrade CCIP instantly after a maneuver but will recover after a short period of time.

POS/GPS will not degrade CCIP when maneuvering.

 

EDIT EDIT: I did drop some bombs in GPS only and they landed where expected. So did INS until enough time had passed. but AINS was instantly broken with first maneuver. 

 

CCIP 1982 NO GPS.trk 445.13 kB · 0 downloads CCIP AINS.trk 932.76 kB · 0 downloads CCIP GPS.trk 602.21 kB · 0 downloads

 

 

You're mixing up position with orientation. The INS provides both, and the GPS keeps the position part updated because of drift. 

 

The POS osb is for position and will not affect INS weapon solutions.

 

Anyway, the whole GPS+INS is bugged and won't work as IRL.

 

Let's wait until ED fixes it, they must know it is working totally wrong.

[Svend_Dellepude]

3 minutes ago, Joni said:

 

You're mixing up position with orientation. The INS provides both, and the GPS keeps the position part updated because of drift. 

 

The POS osb is for position and will not affect INS weapon solutions.

 

Anyway, the whole GPS+INS is bugged and won't work as IRL.

 

Let's wait until ED fixes it, they must know it is working totally wrong.

 

Try for yourself. If you watched my tracks you will see that it does. Maybe that's the problem.

Edited December 23, 2020 by Svend_Dellepude

[Joni]

1 minute ago, Svend_Dellepude said:

 

Try for yourself. If you watched my tracks you will see that it does. Maybe that's the problem.

 

 

What? When did I say it didn't happen?? 

 

I was trying to explain how things work in the first place and then refer to the bugs.

 

I don't need to see anything, I know how it should work and I know how it works today.

[Svend_Dellepude]

You just told me I was mixing up things. I wasn't. I only provided an interim solution to the problem that this thread is about and provided some tracks to show the problem.

Edited December 23, 2020 by Svend_Dellepude

[Shuenix]

It did it for me yesterday, it was very severe. It was F18, online on Georgia.

[oldcrusty]

4 hours ago, Shuenix said:

It did it for me yesterday, it was very severe. It was F18, online on Georgia.

Has anyone seen this in SP and if yes, were these ED missions/campaigns?