correct as-is P51- insufficient shot damage

[NineLine]

Part of the issue as well is that exploding fuel or ammo is not modelled yet, this was a big deal, well ammo (in the case of the 190A) was as far as removing wings. But in general, if you hit it, the 190 will go down. 

[cromhunt]

I hope this video could be significant.In fact you could shot down a FW190A,but you have to use more amunitions.
With a good accurate firing you will be able to cut a wing.

The weird thing is the Fw190A continue a while on one wing?

Sorry "Nineline" all my tracks have been erased,it remains to me only a video.

 

[Silent Film]

I have noticed that when AI goes for landing, he can become invincible. I have just had such a case, didn't want to wait to upload to You Tube just for that purpose, but I followed a damaged Dora who was going for landing. Some 30 seconds before landing, I have put tons of ammo into him from a close range with my Mustang, but he just continued landing normally. I know that I can't destroy AI while he is on the ground, and I suppose it was done on purpose, can't understand why though. Is it possible that "landing invincible AI mode" could be turned on much before the actual landing? I think that might be the case. Damaged AI goes for landing, I hit him multiple times, but he is in some invincible landing mode, maybe even minutes before the actual landing, and so my hits are ineffective?

[iFoxRomeo]

On 5/6/2021 at 6:47 PM, Silent Film said:

I have seen a real Mustang pilot interview in which he said that those six .50 machine guns would cut Bf 109s wing like a saw, and I definitely can't see that in DCS.

It doesn't work that way. I have read pilot reports, that F-86 emptied their 1200 bullets into a MiG-15, and it still kept flying. But that doesn't make the MiG-15 invincible. A pilot report is a subjective momentary situation report and the complete circumstances are unknown.

 

On 5/6/2021 at 6:56 PM, NineLine said:

tracks Tracks Tracks.... people saying they tried today, and I see no tracks. Tracks Please.

Now that would be way toooo easy.

 

57 minutes ago, Silent Film said:

I have noticed that when AI goes for landing, he can become invincible. I have just had such a case, didn't want to wait to upload to You Tube just for that purpose, but I followed a damaged Dora who was going for landing. Some 30 seconds before landing, I have put tons of ammo into him from a close range with my Mustang, but he just continued landing normally. I know that I can't destroy AI while he is on the ground, and I suppose it was done on purpose, can't understand why though. Is it possible that "landing invincible AI mode" could be turned on much before the actual landing? I think that might be the case. Damaged AI goes for landing, I hit him multiple times, but he is in some invincible landing mode, maybe even minutes before the actual landing, and so my hits are ineffective?

What?? You make stuff up and then wonder about your wrong conclusions? The AI doesn't get invincible during landing unless a mission maker sets these parameters. But that is not a general way how DCS AI is handled.

Seriously, show some tracks or tacview files. Show the tons of ammo you put into the AI. Your video shows the rearward and/or unlimited flying ai bug, which is corrected in current open beta, but still present in stable. And the Dora didn't eat tons of ammo.

 

Fox

Edited May 12, 2021 by iFoxRomeo

[NineLine]

6 hours ago, cromhunt said:

The weird thing is the Fw190A continue a while on one wing?

Yeah if you come across that again, I would need to see a track. Thanks.

[Silent Film]

2 hours ago, iFoxRomeo said:

What?? You make stuff up and then wonder about your wrong conclusions? The AI doesn't get invincible during landing unless a mission maker sets these parameters. But that is not a general way how DCS AI is handled.

Seriously, show some tracks or tacview files. Show the tons of ammo you put into the AI. Your video shows the rearward and/or unlimited flying ai bug, which is corrected in current open beta, but still present in stable. And the Dora didn't eat tons of ammo.

I didn't make stuff up, AI becomes invincible after landing, it is impossible to destroy him while he is on the ground. I suppose that invincible AI mode sometimes somehow triggers before the landing.

 

Ok, just for your pleasure, next time I will waste my time by uploading the track.

[Silent Film]

Alright, I have tested it some more, and I have managed to kill a landed AI for the first time in a year. So, I was probably not hitting the vital parts before, and it seemed to me that the AI was invincible after landing. But I had such impression for a year. Maybe I have become better in aiming now. So everything is fine and works properly.

Edited May 12, 2021 by Silent Film

[iFoxRomeo]

54 minutes ago, Silent Film said:

I didn't make stuff up, AI becomes invincible after landing, it is impossible to destroy him while he is on the ground. I suppose that invincible AI mode sometimes somehow triggers before the landing.

 

Dude, seriously: AI doesn't get invincible by its own. 

 

54 minutes ago, Silent Film said:

Ok, just for your pleasure, next time I will waste my time by uploading the track.

If that's your attitude, then please don't post a track. You are wasting the time of those, who try to help you.

You claim something is wrong, but consider providing a track that shows your problem as a waste of time? I call this trolling

[MAD-MM]

I consider the 50cal damaged fine at least in SP and when you join MP. But after an hour flying non stop on the Server it is going worse and worse. Nothing to do with the 50cal itself more Problem with the netcode. Things happen like actually burning enemys that flying happy around, when you ask the enemy in the Chat they where never on Fire.

How could you make a Track from this when the Track is after 5 Mins out of Sync?

Goe's for all Planes, but it is more noticeable with 50cal because it is still not a Cannon from DMG output.

[NineLine]

 

2 hours ago, MAD-MM said:

I consider the 50cal damaged fine at least in SP and when you join MP. But after an hour flying non stop on the Server it is going worse and worse. Nothing to do with the 50cal itself more Problem with the netcode. Things happen like actually burning enemys that flying happy around, when you ask the enemy in the Chat they where never on Fire.

How could you make a Track from this when the Track is after 5 Mins out of Sync?

Goe's for all Planes, but it is more noticeable with 50cal because it is still not a Cannon from DMG output.

Well, if we have both the attacker and they attackie's track, then we can show the Desync, and make an issue to get it fixed, I believe its known that over time the servers can fall out of sync, that said, the more info we throw at the team the more they have to go on to fix these things.

[Silent Film]

10 hours ago, iFoxRomeo said:

Dude, seriously: AI doesn't get invincible by its own. 

 

If that's your attitude, then please don't post a track. You are wasting the time of those, who try to help you.

You claim something is wrong, but consider providing a track that shows your problem as a waste of time? I call this trolling

 

I call your assuming that I am making things up rude. Nobody comes here to make things up. If I say something, that means I have encountered with it. What was the cause of it, that is the thing to discuss, and not to call people liars.

 

Tracks are irrelevant, because they change, I never record tracks anymore because they are pointless, when I replay them, they differ from the actual flight. To post a video, it is also pointless, because it can be said that I just didn't hit the vital parts of the plane to shoot it down, which is probably true anyways.

 

I have addressed a problem.

 

Quote

 

I had a short dogfight with Dora, and after it was destroyed, it just kept on flying, but backwards, very strange. It is obviously some bug or glitch.

 

Maybe something similar was happening sometimes before, but the program wouldn't tell the aircraft was destroyed, and it just kept flying forwards, no matter how much I kept hitting it.

 

 

The problem was not that the AI was flying backwards, the problem was that the AI aircraft would sometimes kept flying after it should have been destroyed, and no matter how much I hit him, he still continues flying. I don't have the video, because I didn't think at that time that I should be recording videos of bugs/glitches. I am saying what I have encountered with, and if you don't believe me without "proofs", than I don't need to be talking at all.

[iFoxRomeo]

46 minutes ago, Silent Film said:

 

I call your assuming that I am making things up rude.

 

Call it how you want it. I didn't assume. 

 

16 hours ago, Silent Film said:

I have noticed that when AI goes for landing, he can become invincible. ... I know that I can't destroy AI while he is on the ground, and I suppose it was done on purpose, can't understand why though...

Your words! Without anything in your hand you claimed to know. That's making stuff up.

 

46 minutes ago, Silent Film said:

Nobody comes here to make things up. If I say something, that means I have encountered with it. What was the cause of it, that is the thing to discuss, and not to call people liars. 

There is a difference in lying and "making stuff up to get an explanation"

Lying would mean you really know how it works, but claim it works differently.

I didn't say you were lying.

 

46 minutes ago, Silent Film said:

 

Tracks are irrelevant, because they change, I never record tracks anymore because they are pointless, when I replay them, they differ from the actual flight. To post a video, it is also pointless, because it can be said that I just didn't hit the vital parts of the plane to shoot it down, which is probably true anyways.

Negative. A track is required. Regardless of what you think about it.

Read this on How to report a bug. Nineline(one of the two english community managers) describes how to efficiently help the devs.

 

46 minutes ago, Silent Film said:

The problem was not that the AI was flying backwards, the problem was that the AI aircraft would sometimes kept flying after it should have been destroyed, and no matter how much I hit him, he still continues flying. I don't have the video, because I didn't think at that time that I should be recording videos of bugs/glitches. I am saying what I have encountered with, and if you don't believe me without "proofs", than I don't need to be talking at all.

With that attitude, how do you expect to get help if people who want to help, can't reproduce your problem. Proof is not needed, reproduction of the problem is. Fortunately some users provided tracks for this bug, so that the "AI continue flying despite being shotdown" bug is corrected in DCS 2.7 open beta.

 

Fox

[Nealius]

I believe this is an intermittent issue, or some kind of probability issue. Most of my targets go down relatively easily like in NineLine's videos, but every so often I will have one stubborn guy who takes 74 50cal hits (I actually counted in the debrief), is smoking, and still continues to fly and fight.

[grafspee]

Exactly like b-17s. Some survived direct 88 flak hit some not.

[Nealius]

A B-17 is significantly larger and has four engines 

[NineLine]

5 hours ago, Nealius said:

I believe this is an intermittent issue, or some kind of probability issue. Most of my targets go down relatively easily like in NineLine's videos, but every so often I will have one stubborn guy who takes 74 50cal hits (I actually counted in the debrief), is smoking, and still continues to fly and fight.

But there are accounts of this in real life, a fighter making it back to base with tons of holes through out, the pilot was lucky to not have anything too critical hit, I am sure there are cases of a lucky one shot (or couple) doing just the right damage. But thats what makes the New DM work, its not cookie cutter, it has different results dependent on different actions.

[grafspee]

5 hours ago, Nealius said:

A B-17 is significantly larger and has four engines 

88mm flak much bigger then 50 cal

[grafspee]

4 hours ago, NineLine said:

But there are accounts of this in real life, a fighter making it back to base with tons of holes through out, the pilot was lucky to not have anything too critical hit, I am sure there are cases of a lucky one shot (or couple) doing just the right damage. But thats what makes the New DM work, its not cookie cutter, it has different results dependent on different actions.

Agree, I've seen photo of the P-51 tail, almost completely obliterated, but some how, pilot made it back. This is just randomness.  Sometime 1 bullet is enough, sometime 1000 isn't enough.

Edited May 13, 2021 by grafspee

[Mogster]

[DD_Fenrir]

There is no way on God's earth that was flying - that's a ground collision and by the pattern of the damage I'd say someone ran up his a$$. The way the metal is cut looks suspiciously like prop blade cuts

[Nealius]

7 hours ago, NineLine said:

But there are accounts of this in real life, a fighter making it back to base with tons of holes through out, the pilot was lucky to not have anything too critical hit, I am sure there are cases of a lucky one shot (or couple) doing just the right damage. But thats what makes the New DM work, its not cookie cutter, it has different results dependent on different actions.

 

The difference here is that in DCS the AI have no fear or systems-management needs, and thus will sometimes continue to doggedly fight you instead of managing his damaged systems and bugging out like a real human would. Until a more human-like response to the damage is programmed, the realistic survivability is more akin to cheating. Especially when a smoking Anton goes vertical, stalls out, and 360 no-scopes your canopy as his nose falls through the horizon like something out of Star Wars--I thought those Tacview examples were one-offs until it happened to me too just a couple days ago.

 

With only three hits to my Jug, one somewhere near the engine, I've lost oil, lost hyds, and have a damaged cylinder, and can't fight at all. Meanwhile an AI that took orders of magnitude more hits with black or gray smoke pouring out, can still maneuver and fight. Maneuver and fight is the part that's sus. Make it back to base and belly land? Sure. Continue to fight? Doubt it. That part seems imbalanced on the player vs. AI side.

Edited May 13, 2021 by Nealius

[Exorcet]

  

1 hour ago, Nealius said:

 

The difference here is that in DCS the AI have no fear or systems-management needs, and thus will sometimes continue to doggedly fight you instead of managing his damaged systems and bugging out like a real human would. Until a more human-like response to the damage is programmed, the realistic survivability is more akin to cheating.

 

A potential counterpoint to that, the one F-15 that had its wing ripped off by a midair collision landed because the pilot didn't realize the extent of the damage. The same could happen with a plane riddled with gunfire. If it's something occasional it's probably fine, just like the AI running into terrain might be annoying, but if it's a somewhat rare occurrence, it's not that unlike what happens in real life.

[Silent Film]

19 hours ago, iFoxRomeo said:

Fortunately some users provided tracks for this bug, so that the "AI continue flying despite being shotdown" bug is corrected in DCS 2.7 open beta.

 

So, you know for this bug and that it is corrected in beta, but you still say I am making things up, that makes you a troll.

 

From my experience, recorded tracks are usually inaccurate, and I would never accept a recorded track as a proof.

 

Anyways, I have managed to record a video of what I was talking about, and why I thought Mustang .50 cal guns were underpowered, while in reality they wre ok, just the AI was stuck in a way, and continued flying despite being shot down.

 

 

Edited May 14, 2021 by Silent Film

[iFoxRomeo]

3 hours ago, Silent Film said:

 

So, you know for this bug and that it is corrected in beta, but you still say I am making things up, that makes you a troll.

 

From my experience, recorded tracks are usually inaccurate, and I would never accept a recorded track as a proof.

 

Anyways, I have managed to record a video of what I was talking about, and why I thought Mustang .50 cal guns were underpowered, while in reality they wre ok, just the AI was stuck in a way, and continued flying despite being shot down.

 

 

 

And now you're confusing things. My comment on you making stuff up is about the invincible AI during landing/on the ground, because you claimed to know it. Not about the bug that aircraft continue to fly after being shot down. Read again.

 

And also, it doesn't matter what YOU think about tracks. ED needs them for their bug fixing. Is that so hard to comprehend?

 

I'm glad I'm not an official here. That gives me the luxury for now to handle your comments the way your name suggests.

 

 

Fox

 

 

[grafspee]

Maybe out of topic but this P-47 apparently flew through forest