Why is the ka-50 shkval having such a difficult time locking airborne targets?

[Reticuli]

Sometimes it takes me like half a dozen attempts, and against a Cobra I seem to be in big trouble when that happens.  Against an A-10, I basically have zero chance.  I will try the larger box size with the vertical line which usually speeds locks for ground targets, but that will often result in a lack of lock at all, like it doesn't even see anything.  I have adjusted the contrast and brightness so that it's very obviously a stark, moving target.  I'm talking the box literally ON TOP OF THE THE ENEMY CRAFT and it will not acquire the target a majority of the time.

Edited May 21, 2021 by Reticuli

[Volk.]

Couple of reasons this could happen:

The Shkval can lose lock or fail to track fast moving targets - that is a thing.

It can only lock targets from about 9.5km - less if there's even a hint of low light (early morning/late afternoon/night) or fog/dust haze.

Contrast from your IT-23 screen doesn't affect it - atm it's doing Shkval locks by approximation rather than literally using visual contrast, so that won't affect it's ability to lock.

A larger box (tracking gate) does help keeping a lock (limited tests I've done) - not sure it locks it easier, but can't confirm. There is an advanced technique involving using the Helmet sight and 'slew locking' it (I got some youtube vids - check out the second one on sniping). This is very useful against fast moving targets, especially if they have a sky backdrop behind them, you're not still reposition/maneuvering (either a good hover or flying dead at them) and they're at the right range so your helmet sight isn't bouncing all over the place. Especially if you can lock that be looking out the cockpit rather than the Shkval - but it can still be tricky, especially if the Shark's flight isn't perfectly stable and isn't guaranteed.

The Shkval does have a harder time locking really fast movers like a jet, as you gotta wait for that narrow 9.5km or less range and then get it while it's still in range and not flying over above you (assuming you're staying low as to not get shot).

 

When we get the Black Shark 3 module with IGLAs then killing jets might be easier as you probably don't have to lock it at short range with the limited-angle Shkval.

[Reticuli]

I'm talking about with my moving the box at the same rate the target is moving, so there is little to no difference in speed comparing the target and the box when it fails to lock.

These are targets well within 9.5km.  A moment later it's shooting at me, so it's definitely close enough that I should be able to lock.

The bigger the box, the harder it is to get it to lock airborne targets for some reason when the box is on the target.  If it was the opposite of that, it'd be fantastic, as it'd reduce the necessity to be quite so precise with box placement and speed... not that any of that at the moment is helping as much as it should.
 

I'd rather not have to cheat using padlocking and the helmet sight.

Oddly enough, I seem to have an easier time locking Russian helos than the Cobra or A-10, like they have some magical invulnerability cloak or something.

Edited December 6, 2020 by Reticuli

[Volk.]

I can't say I've had to lock Cobras recently, in case there's anything weird there, but it works fine withe Gazelles, Apache, HIND, Ka-50s & Mi-26s.

 

The Tracking Gate (aka box) has to be either just beyond the bounderies of the target on your Skhval screen, or smaller. A box that's just big enough to still lock, but not too bit not to lock does appear to retain that lock a little longer on a fast moving target. It does get trickier to gauge what's too big if the target isn't a fat blocky tank, but rather a complex shape with a tail rotor. And yes, pointing at a perpendicular moving fast mover and pressing lock as it passes by definitely isn't sure-fire.

On that 9.5km range - I've had the Shkval not locking at 3km when looking out the cockpit there was ample light, but certain times+atmospherics can get in the way.

 

That thing on the helmet sight isn't cheating - it's not to do with padlocking or displaying dots/^ symbols over the target either. That said, it's not in the manual - kinda discovered it by experimenting. But it makes sense that with the natural movement of the helmet sight that it would allow for a window of time to lock up something the sight is moved across. Hard to explain better in text unfortunately.

[fudabidu]

This is EXACTLY why we've been asking for a Shkval update for years and here we are talking about it again. I think it has even gotten worse since 2.5, judging by how "Deployment" plays (which I played a lot pre-DCS).

Everybody is going to buy the Mi-24 anyways, so who cares, right?

[Fastbreak]

Good evening fudabidu,

 

No, I won't . I have been flying the KA-50 from the begining and have been reading through various pages and videos. I found a lot of inaccuraces meanwhile, so the Shkval behaviour. Most of them are listet in the KA-50 forum. I hope ED that is willing to find solutions to all of them and also have the know-how to adopt modern hardware resources* adequately to finally improve helicopter flying in general and KA-50 in particular.

 

* DCS characteristic of receiving little percent more performance with most expensively state-of the-art hardware in 2020 is a clear indication of the need for a soon, fundamental, thoroughgoing technical concept change in DCS World and its modules - from my point of view.

 

 

Edited December 12, 2020 by Fastbreak
spelling mistake

[Weta43]

The ka-50 shkval is not 'broken' because its operation is inaccurate, or because it doesn't use actual contrast detection, but rather uses lookups depending on time of day, weather and target type to decide whether or not to lock.

That's simply the technology that was available (in that it would run on a home PC) at the time the product was released.

That's what you ( & I ) were happy to get at the time - the most accurate simulation available for home PC at the time .

 

Time moves on and so do technology and expectations.

I don't expect Nokia to update my old 3G 2008 phone to 5G because all new phones run on the 5G network.

 

Perhaps it would make you happier if E.D. simply tied support of products to the base version of DCS they were released against (in the same way phones are tied to the network Hz in use at release), and adopt a model where if you want the product updated to use the features and resources available to new generations of computers, you explicitly pay for that.

 

As it stands, ED keep the old models current with whatever version of the base DCS world they're using & do so for free, so with no extra outlay you get improvements to the terrain, AI, more units, improved scripting & triggers, graphics, lighting, MP environment, etc, etc. There have actually been free upgrades to the 3D model, cockpit and weapons, but because this comes for free the attitude seems to be - I want MORE ! I want features I never paid for & the inclusion of systems that were explicitly excluded at the time of purchase - & I want them for free !

 

If you got BS1 / BS2 at release - you've had damn good value for money. BS-1 came out in 2008 & for a small upgrade fee you got to roll it into DCS world. BS-2 came out in 2011.

 

What other 2011 software are you still using ?

Edited December 13, 2020 by Weta43

[Fastbreak]

Good evening Weta43,

I do not think the KA-50 is broken, either. It is just that I exclusively fly this module, so I have learned what does not perfectly work. And yes, I have alot of fun flying it. Everthing shiny now? No.

 

I neither deem me a nitpicker with regard to issues, development times or module prices, nor I discredit the ED team with regard to their know-how.  Rather I am of the opinion that it is quite a challenge to keep pace with progress in different hardware development that is not ED's intrinsic expertise.

 

On the other hand, sometimes I am really annoyed with inaccuracies -like Shkval that is on the blink or ground that is shining through the floor (...)- altough they are all documented for quite a while. Is it a reason for whinning all along? No. Is it tolerable, if I very occasionally talk about it / give ED a tiny shove ? I think, yes.

 

And now I turn to my Russion "grab bag". 

 

Best regards

Fastbreak

[Sh4rk]

The Ka50 used to lock things from 12 km away, either on the ground or in the air. Not by contranst or anything, just magically like that.

 

Then at some point in 2.5, they changed the way designators work (how they trace to their targets).

Something like, they used to work by using an invisible 3D object, that originated on your aircraft and touched the target. Like an invisible "wand". Its max length in the Ka50 was 15 km, the limit for the Shkval's laser ranging. Locking was capped at 12 km. 

 

In 2.5, they limited the length of said wand to 8 km. It broke both the Ka50's Shkval and (iirc) the Harrier's laser designation, possibly others at the time.

Other modules (may) have been fixed since then, but the Ka50 was not. 

 

Also, the locking range was capped at 6 km at the slightest hint of it not being in daylight (such as, after 6 PM local map time). Locking range will instantly be reduced to 6 km at 'night', even though 'night' starts well before it's dark while the sun is still high up in the sky, depending on latitude.

 

I think you still can get the Shkval to lock beyond 6 km if you use flare rockets (the S-8 OMs) first, unless that is also broken.

 

Other functionality that, iirc, has changed (broken) since 1.5, is that the tracking gate used to work a lot better - it'd "shrink-wrap" and TA over the target automatically as long as you were in range, had a clear sight, and the proper target type selected in the K-401.  

[Hobel]

On 12/6/2020 at 9:52 PM, Reticuli said:

Sometimes it takes me like half a dozen attempts, and against a Cobra I seem to be in big trouble when that happens.  Against and A-10, I basically have zero chance.  I will try the larger box size with the vertical line which usually speeds locks for ground targets, but that will often result in a lack of lock at all, like it doesn't even see anything.  I have adjusted the contrast and brightness so that it's very obviously a stark, moving target.  I'm talking the box literally ON TOP OF THE THE ENEMY CRAFT and it will not acquire the target a majority of the time.

Are you trying to lock with a click?

I can always lock Air targets very well in the range of ~ 8km I let it be lock "automatically", first click lock briefly and then slewen over the target

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irsDxwfJf1c

Edited December 19, 2020 by Hobel

[Reticuli]

22 hours ago, Hobel said:

Are you trying to lock with a click?

I can always lock Air targets very well in the range of ~ 8km I let it be lock "automatically", first click lock briefly and then slewen over the target

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irsDxwfJf1c

 

I don't know what click-lock is.  You mean with a normal mouse and the HMS?  No, I usually don't use my big mouse to acquire targets.  Is that common that people do that in DCS with the shark?  BTW, your video is 'private'.

Edited December 20, 2020 by Reticuli

[Hobel]

Click = button push for lock

 

The video is now open.

[Volk.]

@Hobel, yeah that's helmet slew locking. Where with HMS holding uncage you click lock and for the next 3 seconds it attempts to lock something your sight moves over slowly.

Just two things to note - I see you flick on the "Weap Arm" switch between the red jettison switches. This is unnecessary - all it does is make if you were to jettison the Vikhrs that they're armed/hot/will explode. It doesn't affect normal launching at a target.

I'm assuming the small blue ranging it shows on that dot is from one of those label things from the general menu - but you can comfortably wait until the target is within 9.5km before you start attempting to get a lock - that Shkval has about that range before it starts getting crimped by low light/fog/dust haze.

Otherwise totally agree with that technique, including firing off to Vikhrs.

 

@Reticuli just note it is of course harder if the target isn't traveling dead straight at you or if there isn't just clear sky behind them. Also if a jet is actually looking for you, the odds are strong at that altitude that any of their missiles will be more accurate and hit first before your Vikhr - that's just the food chain. Your advantage is being low and hope they circle often, which also makes it tricky to nose-up enough to catch them. If they're unawares, then the playground is yours of course.

[Reticuli]

I don't understand.  You're saying at the time you manually move the shkval reticle somehow and lock a target, you are NOT clicking or releasing any button at all as it's over the object and it's an automatic lock?  I must hold uncage to get the shkval to slave to the HMS.  I must also hold lock and release both at exactly the right moment to lock onto any target using the HMS.  The only time I ever get any automatic lock is during the goofy, unpredictable automatic horizontal-only shkval scan thing when you just so happen to have the reticle near something, ground stabilize, nudge the shkval in that direction briefly, and then tap uncage and it may move over and lock onto an object.  Half the time I haven't hit lock at the right time previously and there's no shkval symbology telling me whether or not it's ready to actually lock during the auto scan thing.  And then much of the rest of the time often the rest of the circumstances aren't exactly right -- wrong scan rate, not zoomed in, wrong lock box size, etc, etc.  If the shkval is not ground stabilizing, the automatic scan thing won't even do anything at all until I've completely reset the shkval with backspace.

Edited December 24, 2020 by Reticuli

[Volk.]

@Reticuli it's similar, but far better than what you're describing with the Shkval scan mode. That scan mode is clunky, has probably the lowest change of locking and just isn't that useful. But what you experience with that scan mode is that if you click Lock, and it moves over a target in the next 3 seconds, it might stick to it and lock. Your tracking gate (the dashed box middle of the Shkval screen) needs to be just large enough to get the borders of the target or smaller.

What I'm recommending, is that you keep your helmet sight near the target. So to guide the helmet you're holding uncage the whole time, which I think you know. I'm saying you keep holding Uncage Shkval the whole time, and move your headtracking/VR onto the target, THEN you tap lock while still holding Uncage. If your helmet sight moves that Shkval across the target during the next 3 seconds (again with the right size tracking gate), then it you'll see it lock. The green circle on the HUD usually following you helmet sight stops moving and tracks the target, as does the Shkval tracking gate. Once you know it's locked you can release uncage, or press lock again and try to move the sight over the target again. If your laser is on when you press lock, you'll naturally get the laser timer which happens to be 3 seconds on the HUD.

Keep in mind even this technique isn't perfect, and their are times off angles, fast moving things and background clutter breaks or prevents the lock. That totally makes sense for the Shkval and non-radar tech of that era. Locking onto a Hornet, or any jet, that isn't just traveling straight at you from relatively the same altitude will be difficult, especially if they're still small on your view out the canopy/Shkval, traveling perpendicular at speed and you don't have those labels on like Hobel has in that video.

If the target is too far away or too close, or your headtracking/VR is shaky, then this is quite hard to do - you'll have to play around with your setup to see what ranges/distances you need to be looking out the cockpit (possibly the easiest), and when to look at the Shkval zoomed or wide field of view when doing this.

 

That's about as well as I can explain it in words. I've put a video out in October which has exactly this technique in it, both vs. tanks and helos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5Q8bVwtZx0&feature=youtu.be

Maybe check that out if this explanation doesn't work.

[3WA]

Thanks dude!  Good video.

 

On 12/24/2020 at 2:43 PM, Volk. said:

@Reticuli

That's about as well as I can explain it in words. I've put a video out in October which has exactly this technique in it, both vs. tanks and helos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5Q8bVwtZx0&feature=youtu.be

 

Maybe check that out if this explanation doesn't work.

Edited January 13, 2021 by 3WA