Your yaw damper sucks, actually your ka-50 yaw in general

[Reticuli]

Not sure what it's even doing in your poorly-named and poorly-functioning flight director mode.  Turning the yaw channel off, the yaw still seems highly limited for some reason with applied pedal (bad), even though it's obviously not being tweaked back in the opposite direction which it shouldn't be (good).  Turning the yaw channel off, you should get an increase in available yaw in addition to the fact that it won't stop easily when you take your foot off the pedal, rather it will just kind of keep going for a while.  Your yaw in general in the ka-50 just seems to be borked.  Sometimes it just wants to whip around for no reason.  Poor authority even with the channel off.  Poor damping in FD mode with it on.  Unpredictable.  It'd be nice to have a proper yaw damper in non-'FD mode', too, or a yaw that works like helo yaw at least when the AP/SAS yaw axis is disabled, but right now I basically have to put up with having either the wimpy available wanky, unpredictable yaw with the channel on in FD mode, or I have FD mode off and put the turn to target on and just turn with that sort of super damping but that deprives me of the use of my expensive pedals.

Edited December 6, 2020 by Reticuli

[Volk.]

Maybe it's a bug, which can't say I've had flying a couple hours today - but some of the things affecting yaw/heading:

The Shark is pretty streamlined and turns into the wind. So strong wind in a hover will turn it into the the oncoming wind sometimes if that 20% control authority the Autopilot channels isn't enough to keep your facing. Similarly, as you approach 100kph it'll automatically move out of a sideslip or rearward flight and turn into the direction you're facing. From there, the faster you go, the less effective rudder pedals will be given that speed. To have effective rudder control at those speeds, you'd need to nose-up to lose speed, put in a bit of bank and you can rudder over quickly. A flat-turn without bank is most effective at very slow speeds.

You can rudder over a bit faster with higher collective - low collective you'll struggle turning.

If the Heading hold channel is off, you can rudder over really quickly, provided you're not going too fast or lowered your collective too far.

If the channel is on, it's only got 20% authority of your controls - so if you released trim while you've got more than 20% pedal in one direction or the other (check your controls indicator), it won't be able to hold that course. It's also trying to balance the heading you last commanded vs the bank you last trimmed, so a strong bank will have the Shark orbiting rather than keeping a heading.

FD does dampen your movements, but it won't return you to that yaw. That said FD also makes it less stable or precise one you've trimmed and the released the stick.

 

All Auto-turn does is set your trimmed/commanded heading to wherever the target is. So if the Heading hold's 20% rudder authority isn't enough to turn you there, like when wind or a slight bank in the opposite direction, then it might not turn at all. Also it's just not that accurate - it'll get you point in the direction, but not exactly on target for rockets. Do note Vikhr reticule hops left-right of your centre-point depending on the launcher.

 

For your problem that it keeps turning, it could be your pedals don't recenter immediately, strong wind as mentioned before, autopilot is returning you to your last trimmed heading (which it's supposed to), trimmed bank is stronger than heading hold, you left Auto-Turn or Route mode on. As with any helo there is also an element of momentum and 'hanging off the rotors' so to speak.

 

Lastly there are also moments like with extreme braking nose-up (you'd also have high RPM) where I think the lower rotor catches more air and it has a strong bank/yaw to the right.

 

Hope that helps.

[Reticuli]

Speaking of bugs and 20% authority, I think there actually is one somewhere, because sometimes it's as if you've reached a kind of a threshold after which it completely releases all damping authority and gives up fighting against a yaw moment, swinging around wildly.  It's as if the damping is now not factored in any longer at all, which is just plain wrong even if what it's fighting against is too big.

I don't see any increase in available yaw amplitude authority with the yaw channel off at all.  Zilch.  Hitting the pedal with it off doesn't make yaw faster.  Not like a yaw damper.  Obviously with it the yaw channel off it indeed should not be stopping as quickly, which DCS is already exhibiting.  So with no yaw channel activated, you get no advantage of additional authority like you should (that's bad) but it is slightly more predictable I find (that's good) if you don't mind the additional workload.

The yaw damper ability to slow a turn rate when you release the pedal is pretty pathetic in this weirdly-named FD mode.  It's basically useless, though it does do slightly something compared to if it's off I think.  A yaw damper ought to work more closely to what the turn towards target mode does when you've got FD off.  For that matter, if you can just have the auto turn to target off and either hit the trimmer button to set a new heading or toggle the yaw channel, and you'll see the proper yaw damper authority that the FD mode authority would need to be useful, which it isn't right now.  If you have those AFCS/SAS channel switches on the right centered, you can see the little yaw diamond on your HUD show you the caret info on heading damping setting for non-FD mode.  No reason FD mode can't work like this without needing some manual setting of a heading.

I presume 'flight director' is a mistranslation from the original Russian, anyway.

"FD does dampen your movements, but it won't return you to that yaw"

I don't know what you mean by "that yaw".  I'm talking about holding an attitude and damping your current heading rate with a reasonable amount of damping authority, which the non-FD modes already exhibit with their odd manual settings requirements and the squirly FD mode clearly does not currently allow.

Edit:  I think I know what you mean by "that yaw" now.  As in the specific target point on auto turn to target?  I meant using the auto turn as a kind of cheated yaw damping, not that I want the FD mode yaw damper to ever have a specific point it keeps returning to.  Then I sometimes just turn using my little ministick that is slewing the shkval   I think the whole specific point that it keeps returning to thing should be strictly for the autopilot navigation modes (what is usually called Flight Director in aviation circles) and auto turn to target mode, and not actually even be necessary for either the FD or non-FD modes with or without those carets.

Edited December 6, 2020 by Reticuli

[Volk.]

Mistyped - instead of "that yaw", it's meant to say "that heading". ie. the heading you set with your last trim, engagement of auto-turn/hover mode/route mode (there's some complex interactions there) or re-engaging the heading hold switch. It'll try and return you there if FD is off.

With FD on it's won't try and return/correct any of your channels, so yes, that one moves/wobbles around kinda like the Huey would.

 

FD is more a thing if you don't want to fuss about holding/tapping the trim button. Personally I'd only use it if I were doing a LOT of maneuvering, say snaking around canyons at speed or acrobatics stuff. It's not the breath of life and only way to fly like some claim.

 

By dampen I mean that if you were to switch all your autopilot channels off, your helo becomes VERY agile, to the point that you intersect your rotors really quickly. Again at high speed and/or low collective you'll have much less maneuverability. If you pull up-right with a little right pedal at 130kph you can die instantly with those channels off. With them on they dampen your crazy maneuvers so you might have a better shot at not getting a rotor intersection or uncoordinated flight. If your channels are on, then it dampens the movement, and after you release trim & the stick, tries to stabilise you back on the heading/bank/pitch (combination of the 3 with 20% authority). If you were to Hold down trim while maneuvering with channels on it has the dampening of crazy movements, but won't try to stability/return to heading etc. until you release trim. FD works like you're holding trim all the time.

 

The FD phrase does seem like an odd translation. Although maybe it's a literal translation to a context that's understood differently in Russian. IDK.

[Volk.]

If you're flying with your controls indicator on (Right Control Enter), maybe just check that your pedal inputs are indeed going full left/right and returning to centre when you centre them. It might be you have a conflict in the controls (and the indicator 'jumps'), there's a deadzone or curve setup or the pedals might not be working fully. Maybe also check if you've ticked rudder trimmer in the special settings - if you've trimmed a large amount of right rudder, then pressing right rudder won't give you more yaw.

[Reticuli]

The whole point of damping is to hold attitudes and reduce rotation rates.  That's what it is by definition.  If you have all the SAS/AFCS channels off and you've induced a rotational moment, there's nothing preventing that rotation from stopping except the air (eventually) or you putting in a counter input.  It should feel raw, very challenging, and currently is in DCS BS2, except for the yaw which still feels oddly both over-damped in available amplitude with the yaw channel off and also with insufficient counter-action with yaw channel on in FD mode.  Yaw dampers, in particular, reduce the maximum channel amplitude through limiting.  So if you turn a yaw damper off, you should have full yaw authority at your command, which might do bad things, but you can use it if you want.  That's how the shark does those crazy spins at speed in airshows.  You can do those safely if you do them in the right direction and are careful.  Granted, you're not going to do those at 150 knots, but right now even at slow speed, turning can be like trying to maneuver a winnebago sometimes.  In FD mode, the yaw channel isn't really doing much right now, and that's in addition to there seeming to be muted available yaw authority to begin with even with the channel off.  Again, in FD mode, with the yaw channel on, the damping is barely doing any counter-actions to slow yaw rates when my foot is off the pedal, and when I turn the channel off if FD mode is on or off I see no noticeable increase in yaw authority available at all that I can tell.

I always use the controls indicator thing.

Edited December 6, 2020 by Reticuli

[Volk.]

The rotational movement is from (a) the tail rudder turning, likely more useful in fast forward flight, but primarily from (b) the upper and lower rotor changing pitch and thus generating different amounts of torque. When this differential stops, that yaw rate would slow down. But it still has a lot of momentum and possibly airspeed to overcome to start turning - it is an attack helicopter with appropriate weight.

I've run a few tests about 2 months back, and at ~74kph ground speed and found on almost no different in speed doing purely max rudder turns whether you were holding trim, not holding trim or with FD with the channels on. No AP channels it went 25% faster at that starting forward speed (and then it wouldn't matter if FD were on or off). Those were just consistent-controls tests, not perfect flat turns which would require multiple controlled inputs. I don't recall anything in the last month or two patching the Sharks flight model, so those results should still hold. I have also looked at some flight show tests, and when the spin around in 6 seconds (can't remember exact timing), they were going slower and more importantly doing a simultaneous pitch up or down movement, not a flat turn as it were.

 

Those crazy spins in shows - usually not with full payload, nor cannon rounds, possible reduced fuel. Unless it's the flat turns with purely rudder and a little counter-bank to avoid tilt, those sharp turns always were at slower speeds combined with a coordinated sharp nose pitching which really gets you moving quickly in the sim too. For the spinning climbs, of course once it's got yaw momentum, keeping that rudder in makes yaw go faster up to a point. Wags did some of those too in the old Eagle Dynamic YT vids - slowing to 70kph with a nose-up, then full rudder and bank.

I can't comment on what FD does in terms of slowing a rudder input you've left - can't say I've ever tested that specifically.

[Volk.]

If you are still having problems with it after you've checked your pedal inputs aren't conflicting and registering 100%, and it's not a speed or low-collective issue, maybe post a video/trackfile? I might not fully be getting your context.

[Taz1004]

10 hours ago, Reticuli said:

Not sure what it's even doing in your poorly-named and poorly-functioning flight director mode.  Turning the yaw channel off, the yaw still seems highly limited for some reason with applied pedal (bad), even though it's obviously not being tweaked back in the opposite direction which it shouldn't be (good).  Turning the yaw channel off, you should get an increase in available yaw in addition to the fact that it won't stop easily when you take your foot off the pedal, rather it will just kind of keep going for a while.  Your yaw in general in the ka-50 just seems to be borked.  Sometimes it just wants to whip around for no reason.  Poor authority even with the channel off.  Poor damping in FD mode with it on.  Unpredictable.  It'd be nice to have a proper yaw damper in non-'FD mode', too, or a yaw that works like helo yaw at least when the AP/SAS yaw axis is disabled, but right now I basically have to put up with having either the wimpy available wanky, unpredictable yaw with the channel on in FD mode, or I have FD mode off and put the turn to target on and just turn with that sort of super damping but that deprives me of the use of my expensive pedals.

 

I personally don't have this problem.  I can rotate to exactly where I want to at the speed I want.  With Yaw channel on or off.  Only problem I have with yaw is with some wind.  Around 6m/s or stronger wind.  With wind, I have to lean into the wind and rotating with the tilt messes up the hover.

[Weta43]

No problems with the yaw with my crosswinds - maybe post a track ?

[Reticuli]

The three of you appear to be using the aircraft trimmer in non-FD mode to do yaw trimming, right?  I'm not bothering with that.  Tappity tappity every time I yaw to another heading.  I already stated the yaw trimmer has a reasonable amount of counter-action damping authority just as the auto turn mode exhibits, though that obviously doesn't address the fact that turning the yaw SAS/AFCS channel off isn't gaining additional raw pedal authority amplitude, which it ought to... but I digress.  If I'm not in FD mode, then auto turn is on or I have the yaw channel off.  I used to be mostly just in squirrely 'wannabe attitude hold' FD mode with its barely yaw damper, but the new auto trimmer option that appears to be buried somewhere is doing some interesting things, so I've been just combining that with the non-FD mode.  Maybe I should just get used to tappity tappity every time I change headings a little.  I prefer more organic controls, though, rather than so deliberate.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Reticuli

[Volk.]

Most Shark pilots I know of, if they're not stuck on using FD all the time, fly by holding in the Trim button, then maneuvering, then settling on a new position and once airflow across the airframe and momentum has ceased any wobble (moreso with uncoordinated flight), release trim and release the stick. The 'tappity' thing they do IRL with trim doesn't really work with the Shark in DCS.

Unless you were intentionally flying in on a target, or being lazy (which is fine), Auto-turn (if you're referring to the button on the left at the targeting panel) should not be on. I do fly that way on occasion (being lazy) in a non-combat environment, but I wouldn't recommend it if one's learning the Shark's flight.

 

So for normal flight, most people fly with FD off, holding trim while maneuvering, with Heading Hold, Bank Hold and Pitch Hold autopilot channels on. Your choice on which trim-release method and rudder trim options your set in the special settings menu. This is generally the more 'organic' flying, unless you prefer the total control but unstable flight of turning off all autopilot channels...

If you do turn on FD, it behaves exactly as it would if you held down trim while maneuvering. That said once you want to release the stick (or at least stop applying pressure), then FD doesn't really hold your parameters while having it off generally does (within authority limits, balance between the channels like trimming for an orbit vs level heading and wind disruptions).

Heading Hold off, and by extension all Autopilot channels off absolutely should increase your turning rate, unless you've got double keybinds, curves or deadzones messing with it, hardware issues (again for these check your controls indicator to see that your pedal is actually applying 100% left or right in a stable way), you're not going too fast and you're not flying with lower (and by that I even mean 50%) collective.

 

You also mention auto-turn being on but yaw channel off - that should do almost nothing as Auto-Turn sets a new heading hold, which if you turned off heading hold it has nothing to act on. Unless you've trimmed in a bank it's maintaining, wind is pushing you or maybe you also have route mode engaged which is steering you somewhere or leveling out bank.

 

Most of us don't appear to experience your issues, so likely either your build of DCS got corrupted, there's an issue in your setup/controls or you may need to check out some videos on the specific trim-flying one needs to to in the Shark to get anywhere without it flying crazy.

Yeah I think a trackfile or video with your controls indicator would be beneficial.

[Reticuli]

I've had BS from the beginning, I just sometimes use auto turn to target when in non-FD mode to make up for the lack of a proper-authority yaw damper and the fact you have to keep hitting the stupid trimmer if you do want such a yaw damper in non-FD mode with auto turn off.  ED's addition of the yaw trimmer is actually a late one to DCS BS, and IMO it's kinda a lame mitigation for their damper issues.  I don't understand why the auto turn to target authority is properly-high, the nav AP mode yaw authorities are properly-high, the newly-added non-FD mode yaw trimmer authority is properly-high, but they insist that the FD mode yaw damper counter-action be so darn weak.  And again, that's not getting into the fundamental fact that if you turn any yaw damper SAS/AFCS channel off, you should get more raw yaw pedal authority due to bypassing the limiting, which we're not.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Reticuli

[Weta43]

"Most Shark pilots I know of, if they're not stuck on using FD all the time, fly by holding in the Trim button, then maneuvering, "

Yes, that's me too. FD is a rarity.

[Taz1004]

5 minutes ago, Weta43 said:

"Most Shark pilots I know of, if they're not stuck on using FD all the time, fly by holding in the Trim button, then maneuvering, "

Yes, that's me too. FD is a rarity.

 

I use FD all the time.  Rarely use holding trim.

 

Looks like Wags use FD too based on this video.

 

[dfpoor]

On 12/6/2020 at 4:34 PM, Reticuli said:

Speaking of bugs and 20% authority, I think there actually is one somewhere, because sometimes it's as if you've reached a kind of a threshold after which it completely releases all damping authority and gives up fighting against a yaw moment, swinging around wildly.  It's as if the damping is now not factored in any longer at all, which is just plain wrong even if what it's fighting against is too big.

I believe this is Retreating Blade Stall.  There are only 2 types of stall, right?  Vortex Ring State and RBS.  I never get VRS because I never descend more than 2m/s.  Wiki says the KA50 can get RBS because its engines are powerful enough to create sufficient vortices.  And RBS can be caused by sudden changes in airpeed and direction.  

Sometimes when targets get too close I fly away at high speed.  Then I do a sharp 180 turn and reacquire targets while simultaneously bleeding lots of airspeed.  When I try to hover both manual and auto the aircraft spins like a top counter-clockwise.  Not a violent spin but steady.  This can be controlled and managed with rudder pedals, but unfortunately my rudder is on my stick.  Thus I have to manage rudder with one hand and target weapons with the other free hand which is almost impossible.

I will do more high speed 180 turns and see if it produces counter-clockwise spin in hover.

[Volk.]

There's also advanced blade compressibility stall, and I think a few other rarer ones - not sure if all that's in DCS, or if a coax really 'feels' it.

For that sharp turn - I'm assuming you're doing some pitch-up movement (like a cobra maneuver) to brake and then turn - that definitely gives a sharp right yaw. I suspect it's from the air suddenly rushing through the lower rotor that then generates more torque than the upper rotor.

In a hover without the AP channels there is a slow right yaw, yes. So in the flight model there's also clearly a slight right yaw always, but that's still in the AP channels 20% authority to fix for you.

I've just come onto pedals from using a paddle-thingy on the throttle myself for rudder. It is tricky, but ultimately the auto-turn won't always align one well enough for a good shot, especially in wind, so practicing the rudder pedals while targeting is probably the best way.

[Reticuli]

16 hours ago, dfpoor said:

I believe this is Retreating Blade Stall. 

I mean yawing at lower speeds, not at very high speed where you understandably have reduced effective yaw. RBS is at the limits of your helo speed.

There are a lot more types of stall than just RBS and VRS.  There's settling with power where you decelerate too quickly into your own underside that you just run out of power, too low a rotor RPM 'over-pitching' of the main rotor by advancing the collective too quickly (old Longbow 2 used to do this pretty well), too high a rotor RPM too quickly, coning effects on lite helos if you turn too hard, and on and on.  I'm probably forgetting some.
 

 

9 hours ago, Volk. said:

There's also advanced blade compressibility stall, and I think a few other rarer ones - not sure if all that's in DCS, or if a coax really 'feels' it.

For that sharp turn - I'm assuming you're doing some pitch-up movement (like a cobra maneuver) to brake and then turn - that definitely gives a sharp right yaw. I suspect it's from the air suddenly rushing through the lower rotor that then generates more torque than the upper rotor.

 

That might be contributing to some of it, which would be pretty neat actually as far as nuance and complexity goes, but much of this stuff I'm talking about is occuring practically in a manual hover type situation and is just bizarre.  This is a series of run on sentences, so bear with me. It's as if there's some tiny yaw damper authority that's been fighting against some yaw moment poorly that I am also assisting with using some pedal, then as if that tiny damper authority just switches off because what it's fighting against has reached some threshold or something.  Like an odd bit of programing...  say if you have 8 degs/sec of total rotational moments adding up in one direction and the weak damper is capable of (let's arbitrarily say) a max of 5 degs/sec, I'm adding the last 3 degs/sec with the pedal intuitively, then a gradual little gust of wind comes along or something and I get a sense it at first slightly affects things that I can easily compensate for and then all of a sudden it's as if that 5 deg/sec max of damper says "oh, you're now at more than 10 degrees of second rotational moments in that direction so I'm just going to switch off now" and I suddenly lose the SAS/AFCS assistance of that 5 deg/sec damper, so I have to really stomp on the pedal hard.  It happens so fast that often the helo just whips around and jerks, like something has just turned off, reset, or a glitch in the yaw modeling has occurred.  Usually I'll check the channel lights to the right and the yaw is still on, though.  Maybe the yaw channel was actually briefly flashing and then came back on?  If we could have some lights at the top of the no-cockpit HUD view for the channels and FD mode, that would be sweet and useful.  If this were X-Plane, I'd just turn the channel off to get more authority and just do the yaw completely manually, but there's not a whole lot of benefit to that in this canned representation here.  Maybe I should just do that from now on and see if it at least becomes more predictable, if perhaps the yaw channel is temporarily going offline and flashing briefly when exceeding some goofy mystery threshold limit?

Again, that strange thing where it sometimes wants to yank around is in addition to the lack of added amplitude authority to the yaw when you turn the yaw SAS/AFCS channel off and is also separate from the FD-mode yaw damper being just generally weak.  So I have three complaints about the DCS BS yaw.

Edited December 10, 2020 by Reticuli

[Volk.]

Hmmm... I'm not aware that it ever flashes off unless you (a) have damage or (b) put on Hover mode when you were low/doppler not warmed up yet. So I don't think there's an indication in the cockpit for what you're describing.

What you're describing may well exist. I've run a number of tests on banking/rudder with the various modes, FD, Hold-Trim, not touching trim and just moving stick/pedals and the AP channels off. The first 3 appeared identical in timing - but that's with large 180 to 360 turns. Just from trying out during flying, I must say in terms of response time, it seemed like when I wanted to maneuver, if I wasn't holding trim, then it did move - it didn't feel like I was 'fighting' the autopilot. That said, once I'd settle in on the new course, and reduced my control inputs to tiny amounts waiting for inertia/airflow to settle, then one could feel the AP channels trying to kick in again as it were and point me back at the former heading.

I do recall reading somewhere that there are mechanisms whereby either your cyclic/pedals are in control, or the AP channels are (in terms of correction maybe), so maybe there's a small threshold where for really subtle motions the AP channels are still in full effect, and sensing that the heading is now off from your small rudder input they attempt to correct it, whereas with the larger motion they immediately recognise the pilot input and stop interfering...

I think you know, but the speed of yaw does increase gradually as it picks up momentum. It's also a bit slower initially if you have a bank in the opposite direction and faster on the onset if you've got bank in the same direction - and a small difference in banking angle can have effect.

If you're finding on larger movements that the AP is interfering, or that switching off AP channels doesn't yaw you faster from a hover then something is wrong with your setup - maybe just go into axis tuning for the rudder and see if your inputs go smoothly along the line (assuming you're using a linear line and not a curve / deadzone). The presence of the AP channels should also be fairly subtle - not a drastic 'threshold'.

ps. on that gust of wind - I don't think your issue is with that, BUT, if you did trim out a hover facing a certain way, then ruddering over while there's wind will have an effect - you've been trimmed into bank/pitch that fights the wind, but that no longer applies to the new facing, which then also weathervanes the Shark's facing.

I think somewhere in another thread or wishlist someone requested that the AP channels or such, either their activation, influence or setting would be indicated on that controls indicator (right-control enter).

pps. if you want to yaw over in a hover, it's sometimes easier to disengage heading hold, rudder over to the new facing/target, then press heading hold back on which automatically trims in that new heading - it can be more accurate than Heading Hold, doesn't leave you overshooting and doesn't cause any pitching moment like purely ruddering over and tapping trim would (since that also records the new bank etc induced by the yaw motion which isn't all on  flat plane). You could also tap Hover mode off-on, but that has a slight jolt.

[Raptor9]

I think there is some fundamental misunderstanding on what "damping" means in regards to flight control inputs.  Control "damping" does not reduce the authority of the yaw input, either by differential coaxial torque or the tail rudder, but dampens any instability in the flight controls.  A lot of modern day aircraft, both fixed- and rotary-wing, are designed to be quite maneuverable, but with a flight computer to assist in maintaining stability.  Turning off these stabilization functions doesn't increase flight control authority, it just makes them less stable and susceptible to un-desired oscillations, whether that be from control inputs or external aerodynamic factors, or both.

 

The Ka-50 is unique in that when the autopilot channels are engaged, stabilization/damping functions are enabled in addition to autopilot hold modes.  Other aircraft require pilot input to enable autopilot hold functions, whereas the Ka-50 requires pilot input to disable hold functions, in this case turning on the Flight Director.  However, the Flight Director blocks the autopilot attitude/heading hold functionality, but retains the control damping functions for aircraft stability.  Regardless of FD being on or off, turning off the Pitch, Bank, Yaw channels altogether will not increase control authority in those axes, it just makes the aircraft less stable.

 

The primary reason control damping is such an important factor for an attack aircraft is to provide a stable firing platform for it's weapon systems.  I believe the english translation of the Black Shark manual also contributes to this misunderstanding, in that it refers to the attitude hold functions of the autopilot channels as "stabilization".  But a more accurate description of the two functions of those channels would be 1) control damping to make the aircraft a stable firing platform, and 2) attitude hold to maintain pitch/bank/heading values based on aircraft attitude when the trimmer/force trim was released.

Edited January 12, 2021 by Raptor9

[Reticuli]

On 1/12/2021 at 12:06 AM, Raptor9 said:

Control "damping" does not reduce the authority of the yaw input

Yaw dampers FREQUENTLY limit the available yaw authority.  DCS's is clearly not, but that was my point: the raw available yaw is even too weak such that disabling the channel doesn't increase it, which otherwise could have been a way to mitigate at least the issue of weak total available yaw by just giving up the pathetic yaw damper.  So the raw yaw is too weak and the yaw damping outside of the non-FD heading hold is too weak.

 

 

On 1/12/2021 at 12:06 AM, Raptor9 said:

attitude hold

This is too weak in Flight Director, especially in the yaw axis.

Edited January 21, 2021 by Reticuli

[Raptor9]

Damping does not limit authority, it limits instability. Again, I think there is a misunderstanding of the relationship between the flight controls, the autopilot channels and their functions, and the flight director.  But since this debate probably isn't going to go anywhere beyond me stating one thing and someone else stating another, I'll respectfully leave it at that.  Believe me or don't believe me.

[shake307]

I agree with Raptor.  Yaw is not limited when using any mode of flight control.  I frequently use FD Mode as it feels more familiar to the other helos.  I am constantly going full left or right pedal during maneuvers and have never noticed a limitation.  When trimming for hover, i turn off FD Mode and trim for hover.  I also use the controls indicator.  The Shark has a very unusual flight control system and flight model.  Coax rotors have less yaw authority than conventional tail rotor types.  Coax does not have a big fan at the back to push the tail around.  Coax birds literally use differential torque from the two rotor heads to control yaw.  The Shark inherently lacks yaw authority simply because of its design.  You can actually see the rotors doing weird stuff on takeoff and landing.  Coax rotors in a perfect world would make it so the helo stays straight in heading during takeoff and landing.  This is not the case, as the Shark requires some pedal input to keep the nose straight.  That is because the lower rotor is getting "dirty" air from the top.  Therefore, the lower rotor has less yaw authority as the top rotor requiring pedal input to compensate for the increase in torque.  

 

One last thing I will say regarding flight controls...  Make damn sure you know what systems you have engaged or disengaged.  The Shark will do some wacky things if you think you have it setup one way, but in fact have it setup for something else.  (Flying a route in hover mode)  Hope this helps

[p1t1o]

I dunno, the best I have for rudder control is a thumbwheel, and I've got the hang of pointing it pretty much where I want once I learnt the trim function, can even do "the funnel".

So either the damper is buggy and Im an exceptional pilot, or the damper is ok and Im about average.

If by chance you are comparing it to other simmed helicopters, its worth knowing that the Blackshark is a very heavy helicopter - 9.8t gross vs 4.1t for the Huey, for example.

[M1Combat]

Start holding trim when you maneuver Reticuli, then let the airframe "settle" in the new attitude, release trim and release the controls (at least the controls required...  based on whether you have rudder trim on).  From a few statements you've made it sounds like you aren't doing that.  Also...  When NOT doing that...  and when the channels are ON...  It absolutely WILL fight you, up to a 20% control authority, to maintain the last trimmed attitude.  I don't recall whether or not it "releases" when you overcome that 20%, or if, now that it has absorbed your 20% control input, that it will then just gradually add input.  It's been a while since I've flown the shark but I have hundreds of hours in it.  At least.

 

When heading hold is NOT on...  It won't fight you at all...  but the shark's rudder just doesn't have a lot of authority.  It's pretty weak.  The shark is a great sniper with cannon or vikhr...  But it's also quite maneuverable like an attack PLANE (think warthog/harrier etc) with movement.  Super deadly when used that way.  Vikhr to get rid of the primary AA threats...  Then get in there and go to town in an all out aerobatic WTF mode banzai :).  Most people don't do it that way :)...  but it's more fun so I do :).  Sometimes a BMP gets enough rounds on me though :).  Inverted cannon fire while slaving to the HMS is effing brilliant :).

 

Also...  Always disable altitude hold.  Always.  It will kill you.

 

 

 

Also... regarding the statement above about the real pilots tapping trim...  I don't think that's the case.  I know...  Hear me out :)...

 

I think that the sound we're hearing has opposite polarity compared to what we assume.  I think they're "untapping" so to speak :).  I think they're actually holding it in...  but then doing a release-press instead of a press-release :).  Just MHO of course...  we'll likely never actually know.