TWS

[...]

Is it possible with the Hornet to make an attack in TWS mode against a contact that has its radar turned off?

Thank you.

[hein22]

Hi,

 

You could attack a dove if it was big enough to be detected, it has nothing to do with it having a radar or not. Enemy's radar has nothing to do with what or how you can do things.

 

I reccommend you watch this YT tutorial before jumping into dcs, so you can learn more about how fighter aircraft work and enjoy more this simulation.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsBWWZpfxhs

 

Hope it helps.

Edited December 5, 2020 by hein22

[...]

First of all, thanks for the interest, but I think that you have not understood my query. Can I silently lock on a contact that is on the data link, but has its radar turned off? The intention is not to use ACM, or LHAQ, or AACQ, but to perform a silent block so as not to put the enemy on the defensive. This is possible?

[hein22]

What do you mean by "its radar turned off"? I told you already that the enemy's radar ("its radar") has nothing to do with any of this.

 

Again, you can lock him in TWS and shoot, he will not know you fired (because of TWS) but he will know you are there (because of RWR detecting the scan part of TWS).

 

Datalink also has nothing to do with radar locking.

 

Cheers.

[Bunny Clark]

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how the sensors on the Hornet work. 

 

The only system on the Hornet that detects another aircraft's radar emissions is the ALR-67 Radar Warning Receiver, which you can view from the EW Page. This sensor can warn you about other aircraft targeting and launching a missile at you, but it cannot be used to target another aircraft for air to air missile attack. 

 

TWS and ACM are both radar modes which involve using your radar to track another aircraft for attack. Neither have anything to do with another aircraft having its radar on or off. A track with your radar is required for attacking any specific target with a radar guided air to air missile like a Sparrow or AMRAAM. 

 

Datalink is a system which shows you aircraft that other aircraft have detected with their radars. While this can allow you to see aircraft that you have not detected with your radar, it still only shows aircraft that have been detected by a radar system. It still has nothing to do with the target aircraft having their radar on or off. 

 

As for making a "silent" attack, at the moment, no that's not really possible. Some people will call TWS mode a "silent" mode, but that's not really correct. An aircraft tracked in TWS will see your radar illuminating it in search mode, as opposed to an aircraft you've locked up in STT which will get a lock warning. In practice this distinction only matters against a target with poor situational awareness anyway, as any enemy that's aware you've committed to attack him is not going to use your current radar mode to judge if you've attacked or not. 

 

Eventually, the Hornet should get the ability to mark a datalink target for tracking, which will allow you to intercept and guide on an aircraft without turning your radar on. I'm unsure if we'll be able to support an AMRAAM launch with datalink only though. 

[oldcrusty]

DL'd Amraams! Yep, that would be nice. For now, I have to resort to good old maddog attacks, from the weeds, radar on 'SIL'.

With AWACS on my side, that's all the guidance I need. Without AWACS or map, another pair of eyes could definitely help. The enemy AWACS will have a hard time picking me up in the weeds  especially over hilly terrain. Now, if the bandits are in the weeds... might be trouble.  

Here, I sneaked up on a division of J11's.  Had to go nose hot for the last 2. They managed to spoof the Amraams

 

 

[Brass2-1]

13 hours ago, Gripes323 said:

DL'd Amraams! Yep, that would be nice. For now, I have to resort to good old maddog attacks, from the weeds, radar on 'SIL'.

With AWACS on my side, that's all the guidance I need. Without AWACS or map, another pair of eyes could definitely help. The enemy AWACS will have a hard time picking me up in the weeds  especially over hilly terrain. Now, if the bandits are in the weeds... might be trouble.  

Here, I sneaked up on a division of J11's.  Had to go nose hot for the last 2. They managed to spoof the Amraams

 

 

You madlad. Nose cold SPAMRAAM sessions sounds like an entertaining Sunday afternoon. 

[oldcrusty]

3 minutes ago, Brass2-1 said:

You madlad. Nose cold SPAMRAAM sessions sounds like an entertaining Sunday afternoon. 

 

Hehe, what do you expect from an old Lockon veteran

 

On a different note...  What the hell happened to the old style of emojis!  Current ones are lame!  (zukerberg's clique?)

[hein22]

Anyway, @La Unión Atazar like me and the other guys pointed out, it will be good for you to check out the tutorial or maybe reading some stuff about how fighter aircraft work so you enjoy the most of DCS.

 

 

[silverdevil]

radar picks up the cross section of an aircraft. when the aircraft cross section includes the turning blades of the engine, the detection is better. ala the cross section is larger. if the air intake is reduced so is the cross section. with that said. if you have your radar on and pointing forwards or to each side, any target that can detect radar will show the signal. an AC with detection capabilities will see you painting them. their radar on will not affect the cross section you are seeing.

[...]

I think they did not understand my question, perhaps I have not expressed it well.

I have no doubts about the basics.

 

contacts that have the radar disabled are not displayed in the DDI, so they cannot be designated. That's what I mean. You cannot designate a contact if it does not appear on the DDI.

 

They are displayed as a data link, but cannot be designated.

Edited December 7, 2020 by La Unión Atazar

[hein22]

7 minutes ago, La Unión Atazar said:

Creo que no entendieron mi pregunta, quizás no la he expresado bien.

No tengo ninguna duda sobre lo básico.

 

los contactos que tienen el radar desactivado no se muestran en el DDI, por lo que no se pueden designar. Eso es lo que quiero decir. No puede designar un contacto si no aparece en el DDI.

 

They are displayed as a data link, but cannot be designated.

 

Dude! This is an english forum, why the spanish? Lol

 

I translated it and I can tell that you are very confused about how systems work in military aircraft. Go ahead and give the tutorials a chance, you'll like them :)

 

Check out the replies above, all cover what you need.

 

Anyway the answer is no, you cannot do what you want.

[Bunny Clark]

 

7 hours ago, hein22 said:

 

Dude! This is an english forum, why the spanish? Lol

 

Probably because English is not his native language, and it hasn't been working out very well for him so far. Why the surprise?  

 

7 hours ago, La Unión Atazar said:

Creo que no entendieron mi pregunta, quizás no la he expresado bien.

No tengo ninguna duda sobre lo básico.

 

los contactos que tienen el radar desactivado no se muestran en el DDI, por lo que no se pueden designar. Eso es lo que quiero decir. No puede designar un contacto si no aparece en el DDI.

 

They are displayed as a data link, but cannot be designated.

 

Alright, I'm going to have to make some guesses here based on Google Translate. If you can see a datalink contact but are not detecting it with your radar, it's usually because your radar scan volume isn't covering the contact. Check your scan elevation at the contact range and ensure the datalink contact is within it. target aspect and scan PRF can also play a role. 

 

Eventually we will be able to designate a datalink only contact, but that feature hasn't been implemented in DCS yet.

Edited December 7, 2020 by Bunny Clark

[wilbur81]

On 12/5/2020 at 9:50 AM, La Unión Atazar said:

Is it possible with the Hornet to make an attack in TWS mode against a contact that has its radar turned off?

Thank you.

Yes.

[...]

On 12/6/2020 at 2:15 AM, Gripes323 said:

DL'd Amraams! Yep, that would be nice. For now, I have to resort to good old maddog attacks, from the weeds, radar on 'SIL'.

With AWACS on my side, that's all the guidance I need. Without AWACS or map, another pair of eyes could definitely help. The enemy AWACS will have a hard time picking me up in the weeds  especially over hilly terrain. Now, if the bandits are in the weeds... might be trouble.  

Here, I sneaked up on a division of J11's.  Had to go nose hot for the last 2. They managed to spoof the Amraams

 

 

This explains it all. Thank you.

[kengou]

Seems that Atazar is asking whether we can attack datalink targets without activating radar. The answer is no, not in DCS and not with our version of AMRAAM modeled. That technology is newer and more classified than we can simulate currently, I guess. To launch an AMRAAM at a target it must be locked with TWS or STT with an activate radar, or launched in Mad dog mode as demonstrated by Gripes (awesome video!)

[Fri13]

2 hours ago, kengou said:

That technology is newer and more classified than we can simulate currently, I guess. 

 

One doesn't need to know how to emulate classified systems to simulate them.

 

Example, you do not need to understand anything about universe to draw a picture of a sun on the paper to illustrate sun effect on it.

But if you want to make a science paper about sun effets to other planets etc, then you need to have a lot of information about physics behind that and lots of math skill to present it.

 

Example, how does it look from pilot perspective to launch a AIM-120D at the datalink contact? Likely nothing else than firing it a own contact.

Pilot doesn't need to know how the missile works, what is inside the shell of the missile etc. That is what engineers building and designing those missiles needs to know.

 

For DCS purposes one doesn't need to know how the missile exactly works to implement its functionality to be able shot at only datalink target. There are just some information required to know like, does the launched missile listen all datalink informations of the tracked target (as in the Link-16 network each target is assigned unique ID that is used by all systems handling that target) or is it just listening the launching platform, or just one platform at the time? Does it matter as all participants in the Link-16 network are anyways sharing same data about the target?

 

The real problem is, if the weapon is classified for not-public then you likely do not be able add it to the game by any means to even simulate it, no need to even go deeper for emulation level or any other level of details. 

  As if something is classified as secret, then it is secret and it can't be presented, told, visualized etc by any means that is not approved.

Like alone telling someone that "We have a missile that can be launched at targets that is only received by launching platform by over datalink without own radar" can be breach of the security. 

 It is possible to tell such information, but you can not example tell the frequencies or the technicalities how it really works so it couldn't be countered. 

But these are things that wouldn't be any means modeled in the DCS, so it is not even required.