A/G options?

[Bedouin]

Hi,

Since it still too early to know if we get the ALARM, Brimstone and Storm Shadow. I was wondering if we don't get these weapons, what are the possibilities for A/G attacks with the Typhoon, will it then only be JDAM and dumb bombs or is there then alternatives?

 

Thanks.

[Spectre11]

Check the facts and myths thread's opening post to get a clue what weapon options you might expect, dependent on the capability standard. Take into account that the module with start of with a purely AA capable variant only. 

[QuiGon]

2 hours ago, Bedouin said:

Hi,

Since it still too early to know if we get the ALARM, Brimstone and Storm Shadow. I was wondering if we don't get these weapons, what are the possibilities for A/G attacks with the Typhoon, will it then only be JDAM and dumb bombs or is there then alternatives?

 

Thanks.

You forgot LGBs. They will probably be the first A/G weapons the Typhoon gets, but initial focus is on A/A anyways.

Edited December 4, 2020 by QuiGon

[TLTeo]

I'm not sure whether the Typhoon carries (or is cleared to carry) any unguided a2g (minus the gun obviously) ordnance at all actually.

Edited December 4, 2020 by TLTeo

[QuiGon]

14 minutes ago, TLTeo said:

I'm not sure whether the Typhoon carries (or is cleared to carry) any unguided a2g (minus the gun obviously) ordnance at all actually.

Good point! I didn't even think about unguided munitions, but you're right: To the best of my knowledge there are no unguided bombs in use on the Typhoon!

Edited December 4, 2020 by QuiGon

[Wizard_03]

The big question for me is LITENING III.....Probably not but we can hope.

[Mandellorian]

If they follow the real life process, expect A2A first, then a VERY basic A2G package of LIII and paveway. Typhoon didn`t really start having significant A2G capability until the end of 2018, probably wouldn`t have even then if the British hadn`t wanted to retire the Tornado and needed Typhoon to have brimstone and storm shadow capability to avoid the capability gap.

[Avimimus]

I still kindof think that it'd be nice to have an option for unguided weapons (based on the alternate history scenario where the Cold War doesn't end and the Typhoon enters large scale production around 2000)... I'd love to have a few CRV-7 like in the good old Eurofighter 2000 sim...  Some will disagree though.

 

It does seem plausible though - in a world where a Soviet Su-27 and a Ef-2000 enter combat, that some Ef-2000 might be equipped so they could use unguided weapons in an emergency... are there any late 1990s documents to support this?

[Spectre11]

I think it has been mentioned somewhere in the early 2000s that CRV-7 and BL-755 integration was omitted. There have been some images of DA7 with dual racks holding two BL-755. There were a couple of images of the prototypes with a lot of weapon configurations. But in RL most of them never made it onto the jet.

[Avimimus]

On 12/24/2020 at 4:02 AM, Spectre11 said:

I think it has been mentioned somewhere in the early 2000s that CRV-7 and BL-755 integration was omitted. There have been some images of DA7 with dual racks holding two BL-755. There were a couple of images of the prototypes with a lot of weapon configurations. But in RL most of them never made it onto the jet.

 

Apparently  The ability to use iron bombs, or even the gun, isn't cleared on a lot of production models (yet anyway).

 

Hence my "What if the Soviet Union still existed in 1999?" question... "Is it fair to say that CRV-7 and BL-755 integration would've taken place as a stopgap?"

[Spectre11]

It would have been more likely yes. In contrast to popular believe the Typhoon was from the onset conceived as a multirole platform. This is evident by the number of store stations, the specification of several A/S radar modes, FLIR modes, but also by tje scope of the DASS and other features which are more unusual for a typical fighter. Integration of unguided munitions was originally planned, as was the integration of the Maverick, HARM and ALARM. in the post Cold War era requirements changed. A/S has become of greater importance, but the mission priorities changed as well. LGBs and dual-mode bombs became important for CAS/COIN ops. 

[Specter]

In the very early days of getting the A/G clearance on the Tr1 Blk 5 Typhoons (circa 2008) we did drop 1000lb KFF bombs but operationally, in this day of limiting collateral damage, there was no appetite for dropping 1000lb of unguided bombs despite our trials proving an accuracy much better than the Tornado dropping the same bomb (a CEP of about 85 feet).  Should we ever decide carpet bombing is a valid tactic in real life again then the Typhoon is cleared to drop freefall but there is just no reason to.

[Spectre11]

Yes the KFF was a notable exception. The Mk80 series is planned to be integrated on the Kuwaiti jets. Initially the Mk82/83 , later on the Mk84. Other than these it's not particularly likely that unguided munitions will be integrated though.

 

Btw nice image.

Edited December 28, 2020 by Spectre11

[Specter]

1 hour ago, Spectre11 said:

 

Btw nice image.

 

 

They are already integrated, just not used on Tr1.  Tr2 onwards probably didn't bother.  Not sure how many Tr1 aircraft are still in service as I left the Typhoon 6 years ago and as each day goes by my knowledge gets more out of date.

 

Image not one of mine, found on the internet, but yes, nice image.

[TLTeo]

That's interesting. I kind of assumed that anyone who can afford to fly a Typhoon woudn't bother with using unguided weapons.

Edited December 28, 2020 by TLTeo

[Spectre11]

5 hours ago, Specter said:

 

They are already integrated, just not used on Tr1.  Tr2 onwards probably didn't bother.  Not sure how many Tr1 aircraft are still in service as I left the Typhoon 6 years ago and as each day goes by my knowledge gets more out of date.

 Yes very much like the PW II itself. There should be around 30 single seaters still in service. The twins have been reitred, the remainder will soldier on for a decade or so for QRA and aggressor training.

[Avimimus]

On 12/28/2020 at 6:30 AM, Specter said:

In the very early days of getting the A/G clearance on the Tr1 Blk 5 Typhoons (circa 2008) we did drop 1000lb KFF bombs but operationally, in this day of limiting collateral damage, there was no appetite for dropping 1000lb of unguided bombs despite our trials proving an accuracy much better than the Tornado dropping the same bomb (a CEP of about 85 feet).  Should we ever decide carpet bombing is a valid tactic in real life again then the Typhoon is cleared to drop freefall but there is just no reason to.

 

The bombing of Kosovo and the invasion of Afghanistan unguided bombs were dropped in much greater numbers than guided bombs (with the exception of some countries, in Kosovo I believe the vast majority of bombs dropped by Canada were guided). Since then guided bombs have been more important than unguided weapons (and more important than missiles).

 

So I'd suspect that unguided weapons would have been pretty standard up until the 1999-2001 period. Stocks of guided weapons would be limited and a capability to use unguided weapons would be quite desirable for conserving guided munitions. So, it seems quite plausible that a Eurofighter entering service around 2000 would view unguided weapons as fairly central to the arsenal? I suppose what I'm saying is that a lot changed from 2000 to 2008

 

[Avimimus]

On 12/28/2020 at 8:47 AM, TLTeo said:

That's interesting. I kind of assumed that anyone who can afford to fly a Typhoon woudn't bother with using unguided weapons.

 

Well... Europe was originally supposed to have 765 of them in service by ~2005-2010... producing enough guided munitions for all of them to use on all targets would add to the price.

 

There is also the fact that we're currently spending 20-200 times the price of the target on each guided weapon... which works when you aren't dropping that many bombs, but fighting a serious war you'd want to find cheaper ways to destroy trucks... of course, in a series war with the Warsaw Pact that was envisioned the NATO air-forces probably would cease to functionally exist in Europe within the first five to ten days anyway.

[Avimimus]

With regard to guided munitions (Mainly laser-guided bombs and AGM-65 Mavericks):

"If key allies—notably Britain, France, and Germany—were committed to the operation, allied inventories might be adequate against attacks of up to six divisions. Against nine to twelve division assaults, however—or under circumstances in which the better-armed allies do not play major roles—the European arsenal is likely to prove inadequate. (In 1990, Iraq attacked Kuwait with 11 divisions.)"

 

From Page 88:

https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/monograph_reports/MR1245/MR1245.ch4.pdf

 

I believe the original report was published in 2000 (although it has been republished a few times).

 

Note: In 1987 the Warsaw Pact was estimated to have 69 divisions in the European theatres (with another 10 divisions covering the northern sector with Finland).

Edited December 31, 2020 by Avimimus

[Tomsk]

On 12/28/2020 at 11:39 AM, Spectre11 said:

Yes the KFF was a notable exception. The Mk80 series is planned to be integrated on the Kuwaiti jets. Initially the Mk82/83 , later on the Mk84. Other than these it's not particularly likely that unguided munitions will be integrated though.

Would be great to eventually get a Typhoon in DCS that can use some unguided bombs. LGBs are not always the ideal tool for every job.

[Deano87]

3 hours ago, Tomsk said:

Would be great to eventually get a Typhoon in DCS that can use some unguided bombs. LGBs are not always the ideal tool for every job.

Or.. the most fun, imho.

[Bananabrai]

As with many things:

 

It can be done. Manufacturere developed or even tested it.

But the operator chooses the weapons.

 

If I remember correctly, you can drop at least LGB as unguided bombs in "CCIP".

Would be a waste of money though.