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Do ED teams plays WW2 ?


McPetterson

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2 hours ago, JG13Wulf said:

I made shoot and kill with only 1 or 2 20mm impact with the Spitfire.

I hope that a bloody joke !

 

Look how many shoot before the k4 get shot down: 

 

Are the german plane made of Adamentium like wolverine ? x)

 

Anyway, we all agree we need G6 and TempestV to better match the planeset we have !


Edited by peeter
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19 minutes ago, peeter said:

I hope that a bloody joke !

 

Look how many shoot before the k4 get shot down: 

 

Are the german plane made of Adamentium like wolverine ? x)

 

Anyway, we all agree we need G6 and TempestV to better match the planeset we have !

Is it an AI ?
Because, I think AI have still quite a lot of trouble with damage model.
Still work in progress I think.

 

1) you are so close you miss lot of shoot.

2) you are so close you won't shoot at convergence. You make hits in a lot of area of the plane. At convergence, you would make max damage in a point.

3) the plane seems quite out of combat after 15 seconds in the video. You clearly see that the pilot is not able to pull up anymore (see how he move at around 15s). At 25 seconds it's completly ruined.

 

What I see here :
The 109 internal seems to be completely destroyed.
The engine maybe took one or 2 20 mm hits. I don't think the fuel tank took once.


Please let's make a try with me 🙂

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Yea it was IA !

 

Maybe i was close but we can see all the hit he took. Last time a german hit me with 20mm, it cut my wing in a few shot (way less than in this video).

 

So here is my question:

- Is the german and british 20mm equivalent ? 

- Is it the Bf109 k4 more resistant than the Spitfire ?

- why do i shoot so badely 😂 ?


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1 minute ago, peeter said:

Yea it was IA !

 

Maybe i was close but we can see all the hit he took. Last time a german hit me with 20mm, it cut my wing in a few shot (way less than in this video).

 

So here is my question:

- Is the german and british 20mm equivalent ? 

- Is it the Bf109 k4 more resistant than the Spitfire ?

To me both 20 mm seems quite similar. But the main difference is how they are set on the plane.
On the Spitfire you have 2 canon that are far from plane center. Those two canon seems to have a smaller ROF than German one and are quite efficient only close to convergence point but less efficient when you go further away from it.

German work the same way. But on D9, you have 2 canon that are really close to the fuselage (you can almost say they are centered. This make they are almost always at convergence point. Even you you get a bit away from it, they will both shoot with so little angle that the 2 round will hit close to each other. This is why german canon seems more effcient.
The A8 is different too with 4 canon. But when testing with only shooting 2x 20 mm from A8 or from Spitfire (close to convergence point for each other), I didn't notice lot of difference. 
I even thought the Birtish 20 mm seems to have more explosives. They seems to make more damage in system (but hard to compare as no shoot is equal to another).

I asked before for it, but I really think you would have better results if you could set your convergence to a choosen value.
Here the post. Last time I heard about, it was something put in the requested feature list.


I don't know if the 109 is a lot more resistant than the Spitfire. Both have strong and weak point. But the 7,7 mm are quite inefficient gun (I don't mean they don't do enough damage in DCS, I mean this was an inefficient caliber). Try shooting with 12,7mm on a 109 with a bit more distance, you will see it can burst into flame in a matter of a second. The 12,7mm make terrible damage to all the plane.


A good thing could be to ask for Spit Mk IXe wich have 2 20mm and 2 12,7mm. But this would not change lot of things if you can't shoot at correct distance.
Historically, in all air force, lot of plane who used 7,7mm (or similar) in early war variants upgraded for better caliber later (Bf 109, Fw 190, P40, Ki 43, A6M5, Spitfire, Hurricane ...)

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20 hours ago, McPetterson said:

I think you miss my point. I would like a perfect balance between realism and fun.

 Since DCS purports to be a realistic simulator, you don't have a point if you're demanding some kind of balancing.

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6 hours ago, peeter said:

Yea it was IA !

 

Maybe i was close but we can see all the hit he took. Last time a german hit me with 20mm, it cut my wing in a few shot (way less than in this video).

 

So here is my question:

- Is the german and british 20mm equivalent ? 

- Is it the Bf109 k4 more resistant than the Spitfire ?

- why do i shoot so badely 😂 ?

 

Why not set up a mission in the editor where you attack Spit drone with a Spit, 109 drone with 109, a 190 drone with 190. That would help answering questions about convergence, relative cannon performance etc.

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7 minutes ago, Art-J said:

 

Why not set up a mission in the editor where you attack Spit drone with a Spit, 109 drone with 109, a 190 drone with 190. That would help answering questions about convergence, relative cannon performance etc.

That exactly what we do online. But instead of a drone we ask to a pilot to be in the plane to tell us what he see from is point of view (internal damage system, and plane behavior modification). We first did this with spitfire and shoot with each gun we have in DCS on the different plane (except I16).

We tried to shoot wing at 3 different points.
Then the fuselage. 

And we look how the target react to hits.
That's how we arrived to the idea that Spitfire canon are not so different from MG 151/20 in game.
(Seems there are slight difference, but they are both efficient).

Actually, we only do the spit completely. We started 109. But there is a bug with it. When you rip off a mobile part (aileron, elevator or rudder), it become totally unflyable. So as aileron come off quite easily, we stopped test to wait for next update (as this bug was reported and seems to be internally corrected).

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the only one who is banned on our server is a Coyote and this is for not respecting the rules. We don't have anything to prove, we share our feelings with the ED staff, we paid for the modules and it's up to them to work on them. We have decided not to behave like Betatesteur anymore but like responsible consumers. You are free to do their job if it amuses you and flaunts your equals.

 

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5 hours ago, msalama said:

 Since DCS purports to be a realistic simulator, you don't have a point if you're demanding some kind of balancing.

 

It doesn't mean they can't add new planes to be more balanced, they can keep realism and also keep a fun way to play the game..  I'm talking about this kind of balance for instance

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9 hours ago, Fmax13 said:

the only one who is banned on our server is a Coyote and this is for not respecting the rules. We don't have anything to prove, we share our feelings with the ED staff, we paid for the modules and it's up to them to work on them. We have decided not to behave like Betatesteur anymore but like responsible consumers. You are free to do their job if it amuses you and flaunts your equals.

 


I come here like a lot of pilot because DCS promise to make the most detailled simulation of Warbirds.
I paid a lot like all the member and all the member of the little team of tester we build. That's the reason why we make test.


We try to make as detailled feedback report as possible to help. And we don't take pleasure to do so. We take our free time because we believe in DCS. We find some bugs, we made mistake. But we always had interesting discussion from my point of view.


If you would do the same. Detailling your experience with documentation, I would be glad to look at it. But instead you keep to complain and not showing argument. Only @peeter show a video of his experience. I answered to it. And it seems other people think the same as me (see the answer on discord).

What you ask for is at the opposite to what I look for. I hope and believe most people here look for the same as me : Realism and historical accuracy.
 

9 hours ago, McPetterson said:

 

It doesn't mean they can't add new planes to be more balanced, they can keep realism and also keep a fun way to play the game..  I'm talking about this kind of balance for instance

 

Can you tell exactly what you ask for :
- New plane balanced to be against the one we have ?
- New plane correctly modelised from 1944 / 45 that you should learn to use to fight the one we have ?

If you ask for the second I'm 100% with you.
But what I read since the begining make me think you hope for the first one.
If I'm wrong, I'm sorry.

But notice just this :
P51, P47, Fw 190D and Bf 109K4 are from the same era.
Fw 190A8 and Spitfire are from same era.

 

the main problem for most historical purist like me is that only the last two are correct for Normandy.

But if you think new plane will make the things easier, you are wrong. If you learn correctly how to use each of these, you will see that you can down any of these with any plane.

Balance will not come with more plane. Balance will come by rethinking the way you use each plane.


Edited by JG13Wulf
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7 hours ago, JG13Wulf said:

- New plane balanced to be against the one we have ?
- New plane correctly modelised from 1944 / 45 that you should learn to use to fight the one we have ?

 

 

For the second one you mean that the plane we already have is not correctly modelised ? 

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1 hour ago, McPetterson said:

 

For the second one you mean that the plane we already have is not correctly modelised ? 

No, I mean new plane to be correctly made. Meaning plane that are not balanced/tweaked against one particular opponent but that will need to be learn (as the one we have now) to take advantage against other.
This is actually what I disagree with your team leader. He try to say he look for historical modification. But what he ask for is Tweaking so plane would be equivalent. So it would be more adapted to his dogfight server gameplay.

One other game did this at first. Creating a plane and his opponent to have balanced game. Making assumption and tweak to flight model so "everyone is happy". But those who looked to use correct strategy and to learn their plane complain about this.
This seems to change little by little there. But years ago, that's why I come to DCS and I didn't stayed there.

So 100% with this particular request if you look too for historical accuracy in DCS.
This is the hope of every one that like WW2 here.

EDIT : But don't think I mean everything is perfect now.
There are bugs. But bugs should be corrected by looking as much as possible to historical data.

Not by looking to dogfight server gameplay.


Edited by JG13Wulf
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10 hours ago, JG13Wulf said:

 

Balance will not come with more plane. Balance will come by rethinking the way you use each plane.

 

Not strictly true. I generally fly the Spitfire, coming across aircraft such as the Dora and K4 is frustrating. 

 

If we had the G6/G14 and the K4 and Dora's were dropped from the server the plane set would be accurate and 'balance' would be restored. 

 

Same would be true in adding the Spitfire Mk.XIV or Tempest.

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19 minutes ago, Krupi said:

 

Not strictly true. I generally fly the Spitfire, coming across aircraft such as the Dora and K4 is frustrating. 

 

If we had the G6/G14 and the K4 and Dora's were dropped from the server the plane set would be accurate and 'balance' would be restored. 

 

Same would be true in adding the Spitfire Mk.XIV or Tempest.

 

Yes, That's what I called Historical accuracy. 😁
Balance for me is the fact to tweak the game so each side will have "similar results".


A Tempest or a Spit MK XIV would help a bit because they have better performances than MK IXc. But they would not be the miracle solution for those who don't try to use these plane in their flight domain.

As I said, I'm 100% for those plane to arrive (like everyone).
But I'm against the balanced gameplay so "Allies would catch invincible German".
Allies can kill german plane. It's not easy (as it's not easy to fight with A8). But it's possible with hard work.

So as I said, 100% for more historical planeset with correct plane simulation ! 👍
Should have been a bit more precise in my sentence. 😁


Edited by JG13Wulf
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2 hours ago, McPetterson said:

If we want historical accuracy, I have certain doubt that aerial suprematy would have been made with only MK IX, fortunalty English had  better planes than this spit at the end of the war

Aerial supremacy wasn't done only because allies got better plane. The main reason was their number.
More recent plane will help if they correspond your way to fight. Not be magic.

You will be able to have results if you fight with it in the correct way.

The Spit MK IXc is far more better than MK XIV or Tempest in turn.

If you play the MK XIV like a Spit MK IXc because "it's a Spit", you only going to say it's the worst plane ever made ^^

 

Having these new plane is a trade off between speed and agility.
The 109 G6 is the same principle.

We are going to loose speed but gain more agility. 
If German player will play G6 like K4 they will be dead.

That's why I think new plane won't balance much the game if you don't take time to understand how to fight with them.
They will help, They will be better for historical accuracy. They will be nice opponent for German. But they will add nothing if you not learn them.

=> Rethink the way to fight and it will balance the game.
Fly in your domain and fly in squadron.

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2 hours ago, JG13Wulf said:

=> Rethink the way to fight and it will balance the game.

 

Then, tell me how to fly the spit.

I fly the spit on DCS for almost 3 years, please tell me ... 

 

Should I run away when I see I K-4 ? I can't he's much faster than me. 
Should I turn it ? I can't, some really good pilots know how to outurn the Spit.

 

So tell me how do it, despite the fact that 1 bullet in my spit will destroy it. 

 

Please Wulf, come more often in Spit in our server when it's full. You'll see by yourself how much is frutrating.
Honestly I'm pretty sure you have a good knoweldge on WW2 airplanes, but here we are talking about DCS multiplayer.


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47 minutes ago, McPetterson said:

 

Then, tell me how to fly the spit.

I fly the spit on DCS for almost 3 years, please tell me ... 

 

Should I run away when I see I K-4 ? I can't he's much faster than me. 
Should I turn it ? I can't, some really good pilots know how to outurn the Spit.

 

So tell me how do it, despite the fact that 1 bullet in my spit will destroy it. 

 

Please Wulf, come more often in Spit in our server when it's full. You'll see by yourself how much is frutrating.
Honestly I'm pretty sure you have a good knoweldge on WW2 airplanes, but here we are talking about DCS multiplayer.

Ask your team leader to unban me and come fly with me. It's will be my pleasure to fly with you ^^
The best way to make something is to work in pair.


Edited by JG13Wulf
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On 12/4/2020 at 5:51 AM, golani79 said:

 

Not so sure .. I own all WW2 birds and I´d still buy an Emil, Friedrich, Gustav ...

I´ve also heard from multiple other people that they would also be interested in older variants of the 109 or planes in general.


Absolutely positively. I’d buy anything in the 1940-1943 time frame. The forum amplifies outliers who enjoy gameplay and have less interest in the historical sim side, I think.

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For those who argue that we should not have Spit LFIX fighting 109 K4s here are some statistics:

 

Spitfire LFIX

The production for Spits LFIX began in Feb 1943. The last order (400 units) was in July 1944.

The first LFIXs entered service in March 1943.

During this time a total of 3971 LFIXs were produced.

 

Spitfire XIV

The production began in Aug 1943.

The first XIV were delivered in Dec 1943.

There were a total of 500 units produced.

 

BF 109 K4

The production started in Aug 1944.

The first units entered service in Oct 1944.

1593 units were produced.

By January 1944 1/4 of all 109s were K4s.

 

So...

1. Mk XIVs were produced simultaneously with LFIXs. In fact, production of LFIXs continued even after the XIV were introduced and there was significantly more of them.

2. K4 was not some obscure prototype variant that rarely seen action.

3. Historically speaking, confrontations between LFIXs and K4 were much more likely that between Mk XIVs and K4s.

 

 

Sources:

http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/contracts.html

http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/contract_Air1877.html

http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/contract_981687.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermarine_Spitfire_(late_Merlin-powered_variants)#Mk_IX_(type_361)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermarine_Spitfire_(Griffon-powered_variants)#Mk_XIV_(type_379)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Bf_109_variants#K-4

 


Edited by PL_Harpoon
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  • 2 weeks later...
On 12/3/2020 at 1:22 PM, FS21-Kramber said:

Good evening gentlemen, while reading your post I was a bit shocked and I think that before writing anything you should review your arguments because DCS is not an arcade game... When you've given real proof of what you say for example (technical documentation, videos showing 30mm impacts or other), it will be more interesting. 

Moreover, Allied and Axis planes are very good at the moment, a little advice, it's not by changing the 109 version, for example a G6 which will certainly have less engine power that it will change something, yes historically it will be more correct but it will only show another problem ;). 

 

Have a look by yourself ! http://kurfurst.org/index.html

 

Moreover, you complain about the manipulation of the K4... then the G6 will be your worst nightmare.... 

You have to use each plane in its flight domain to come out victorious and work as a group! 
 

I don't think the issue is that the 109 guns are necessarily over modelled, but that the HS 20mm in the spit are perhaps a bit unde rmodelled.  See this: http://spitfiresite.com/2010/04/cannon-or-machine-gun-the-second-world-war-aircraft-gun-controversy.html and here: http://users.skynet.be/Emmanuel.Gustin/fgun/fgun-pe.html

I'm not too interested in getting into debates on which plane was better in real life, and I have not flown the 109 in DCS. The Spitfire tho', is a much more unpleasant airplane to fly than chaps who have actually flown them described to me.   A friend of mine who was a member of the Ray Ban aerobatics team went to England last year, stepped into a Spitfire and flew his entire routine without a hitch and no surprises. He said it was an enormously rewarding airplane to fly. The spit had a reputation for being a dream airplane- delightful to fly. I would agree that the DCS is airplane is a dream aircraft... the problem is, you wake up screaming.  Getting your joystick configured properly is a huge issue, and even when it is, the airplane flies like a unicycle balancing on the head of a pin. Once you get onto it, I think it's capable, but wow, it's an ill tempered beast in DCS.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I’m not sure what people are complaining about with damage between allied and axis planes. Rear aspect shots on the tail of a plane are not gonna do much damage compared to shots right behind the prop. I can take a p-51 out and nail a plane right behind the prop with a second long burst of 50 caliber and the plane will go up in flames or start smoking and the engine stop. I can also take the 51 out and shoot any plane from a rear aspect and waste several seconds of my ammo because I  not hitting anything critical and some planes had more rearward armor than others to prevent rear shots from disabling the aircraft. I can take a 109 out and hit right behind the prop and it drops the plane with one burst (like the mustang) and I can also take a rearward shot and it takes longer ( like the mustang).   
 

The spitfire destroys other planes just fine. It is a plane the punches above its weight class. The spitfire is not nearly as armored as a jug, Anton, Dora etc so it gets shot down quicker when it is hit. Learn to fly the planes strengths and you are good. The spitfire can out turn damn near every plane. You get someone behind you you need to go evasive and use superior turn rate to shake them or you get smoked. 
 

keep up the good work ED. The ww2 planes are coming along nicely. Sure I’d like to see more planes for different times during the war but the selection we have is awesome with great modeling. 
 

spitfire quick kill: 

 

 

mustang quick kill:


109 quick kill:


I have other videos as well that show how quick it is to take out a plane if you hit it right and plenty of examples in those same videos of it taking forever to kill a plane because I can’t hit area. Bigger bullets do more damage. Less armored planes receive more damage. 


Edited by GR00VYJERRY
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