CM-802AKG dir/coo modes not working

[sylkhan]

In "Direct mode" i tried tpod, AG radar, waypoint as spi and no luck,

Coordinate mode don't work too,

or am i doing something wrong :)

[razo+r]

You need to load the DL pod.

[sylkhan]

You need to load the DL pod.

 

No, not need in Direct or coordinate mode, only in "MITL" mode to have video and control over the 802AKG

[razo+r]

You do need it. Post 6 and 7

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/forum/english/licensed-third-party-projects/deka-ironwork-simulations/jf-17-thunder/259801-802-akg-help

[sylkhan]

No, only in "MITL" mode, but even with the DL pod that does'nt work, will do some more test

[razo+r]

MITL mode is on when the seeker turns on. In those two modes, seeker turns on 20km from the point. Maybe the problem is that you are launching the weapon too close (10NM)

 

But you definitly need the pod in any mode.

[razo+r]

I just tried it.

 

Missile won't fly there without pod. If you have the pod, it works (Missile flies towards SPI without taking control).

 

Now I suggest you to load the pod and try it. After all, you will get control of the missile 20km from the target and then you have to guide it yourself.

[sylkhan]

With DL pod that works, if you take control of the missile, but in dir/coo mode the 802 need to go directly to the target without control.

It is the difference between dir/coo and MITL mode, where you control the missile.

At least it is what i understand from the manual.

[razo+r]

The missile will even fly towards the SPI in dir/coo even without you taking control of it. You just need to have the pod equipped.

 

I literally tried it. Without pod, the missiles does what you see. With pod (Without taking control of the missile, as in launching it much further away than 20km from the point), the missile flies towards the point.

 

Also, to remove confusion. There's only DIR, COO and MAN mode.

 

In both DIR and COO, the missile will power the seeker 20km from the target. Before it turns on the seeker, it's in the cruise stage, where it will fly towards the SPI/RP/PP. After that, the missile is in the "MITL" stage. That is the point when you have to control the missile, regardless of DIR, COO or MAN.

[sylkhan]

Also, to remove confusion. There's only DIR, COO and MAN mode.

 

"Man mode" speaks for itsel, "manual + man in the loop" suggest a human participation to guide the missile.to the target

" Direct mode" or "Coordinates mode" the missile go to target by itself

 

 

[razo+r]

MAN is indeed you telling the missile to which RP the missile should fly to. You can change the route in flight and the route itself does not have to be direct. As per manual, seeker will turn on 2km before last RP. After that, you have to guide it (or use autolock of the missile)

 

DIR is Direct to SPI. The missile will fly directly towards the SPI. BUT the seeker will turn on 20km before the SPI. After that, you have to guide it (or use autolock of the missile)

 

COO is coordinates. It will fly to the PP (Pre Planned). The missile will fly itself towards the PP, BUT the seeker will also turn on 20km before the PP. After that, you have to guide it (or use autolock of the missile)

 

Edit:

 

After the seeker powered on, the missile will enter MITL mode. And when it entered MITL mode, you need the DL pod. That's written in the manual (Could use some re-phrasing, but it is in the manual, that you need the DL pod)

[sylkhan]

Ok, just and example,

In direct mode you can use tpod to select the target to create SPI and then launched the 802.

In your theory, that means that after launching the 802, it's in MITL mode and we need to swith to DL to control the missile ?

That's not logic, the missile need to go directly to the SPI (target)

[razo+r]

No, read the manual or my posts again.

 

The missile will go into MITL 20km from SPI. So if you launch from further than 20km, it will still be in cruise stage. You only have to control it when it turns the seeker on. That is the point when you have to switch to the pod page and control it.

 

If it is not logic, either go and tell Dekka that their implementation is wrong, or if they say it's corrct, go to the weapon manufacturer.

 

After all, it's a MITL controlled weapon, not a Maverick or similar type.

[Blinky.ben]

MITL IS NOT a mode, The CM-802AKG is ALWAYS MITL at the final stage no matter what mode you choose. The modes are nothing more then choosing how the missile gets to a point or how the missile receives the co-ordinate to fly towards. But no matter what, it is ALWAYS MITL at the final stage. So no data link pod then no guidance at final stage, period. The missile does not have a radar or any self terminal guidance it has to have human input or you happen to get lucky and the missile just happens to fly into the target.

 

also the rear of the missile has a 120degree FOV so at the final stage you have to be within that arc or you won’t get a datalink connection with the datalink pod for the final MITL stage either.

[sylkhan]

You are right, it works, this way, but the chuck manual is confusing because it refers to MITL only for the Man mode or my english is too crap.

I have learned something today :)

[sylkhan]

Hmmm well, I re-read the Chuck’s guide.

 

2.7.3 – CM-802AKG TV-GUIDED MISSILE(DIR, Direct)

- 9.Select Final Attack Mode(POPUP or SKIM). We will choose POPUP.
2.7.4 –CM-802AKG TV-GUIDED MISSILE(COO, Coordinates)

- 9.Select Final Attack Mode(POPUP or SKIM). We will choose POPUP.
2.7.5 –CM-802AKG TV-GUIDED MISSILE(MANUAL + MAN-IN-THE-LOOP)

- 9.Final Attack is irrelevant for this mode since Man-In-The-Loop requires manual control.

 

What do you understand ?

 

From the DEKA quick guide

 

C-802AKG is different, at specific mod, you can control the weapon from launch to hit.
C-802AKG has three launch modes : DIR, COO and MAN.
In DIR mode, missile fly to SPI directly.
In COO mode missile will attack PPpoint.
For MAN mode, missile will fly through RPpoints.
In DIR and COO mode,seeker will power on 20km before the designated target point.
In MAN mode, seeker will power on about 2 km before the last waypoint and enter MITL mode.

 

What do you understand ?

 

Like i already said the Chuck's guide and Deka guide refer to MITL only for MAN mode, and only MITL require DL pod.

 

It makes sens since the CM-802AKG has inertial guidance with GPS inputs, and Infrared Homing seeker + TV seeker with datalink.

 

If in DCS it works only in MITL mode for some reasons, it's sad, but it's a game after all

 

Same for the 802AK, in real life it can attack maritime and ground fixed targets but in the game, it seems to be able
to attack only sea targets.

 

Game and real life, different story , or perhaps they are WIP.

[Blinky.ben]

I do see what you are saying, however if you look in chucks guide under the COO mode and DIR mode it states in the second last step the the seeker will power on 20km before the SPI. 
 

I read it as in those modes the seeker will transmit the TV signal but you shouldn’t have to adjust the missile as it should hit the SPI (I haven’t actually tested if that does happen I usually end up adjusting it myself). But in theory you shouldn’t need the tv feed then I guess.
 

also the datalink pod isn’t just for the seeker display you can also change which wpt to fly too while the missile is inflight in route mode for example. A theory is maybe the pod and the missile continue to talk to each other for constant updates. Maybe that’s why it won’t work without the pod also. I’m just guessing here tho I don’t actually know if this is the case.

[sylkhan]

9 hours ago, Blinky.ben said:

I do see what you are saying, however if you look in chucks guide under the COO mode and DIR mode it states in the second last step the the seeker will power on 20km before the SPI.

 

 

and ??

The 802AK power its seeker(radar) 25 km before SPI, I don't see the point with DL pod

 

9 hours ago, Blinky.ben said:

I read it as in those modes the seeker will transmit the TV signal but you shouldn’t have to adjust the missile as it should hit the SPI (I haven’t actually tested if that does happen I usually end up adjusting it myself). But in theory you shouldn’t need the tv feed then I guess.

 

doesn't work

 

9 hours ago, Blinky.ben said:

also the datalink pod isn’t just for the seeker display you can also change which wpt to fly too while the missile is inflight in route mode for example.

 

There is NO "route mode", you mean "Direct mode" and I don't think you can change the SPI(WPT) while the missile is in flight, it is determine before launch.

 

9 hours ago, Blinky.ben said:

A theory is maybe the pod and the missile continue to talk to each other for constant updates. Maybe that’s why it won’t work without the pod also. I’m just guessing here tho I don’t actually know if this is the case.

 

After some research, my guess is :

Since the AKG is dual seeker then, in (Dir, Coo) it act like the AK and activated it's IR seeker for terminal guidance (no need of the DL pod, same as AK), in "Man mode" it activate the TV seeker for MITL(DL pod is need for guidance).

 

Only Deka, can give us the correct answer

 

 

Edited December 1, 2020 by sylkhan

[razo+r]

MAN mode uses Route Points, which the missile will follow. And you can tell the missile which RP it should fly towards inflight.

 

As for your other questions, here are the answers you seek (and they all say the same. You need DL pod since it's a MITL controlled weapons (also stated in the manual))

 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2020 by razor1606688430

[sylkhan]

2 hours ago, razor1606688430 said:

MAN mode uses Route Points, which the missile will follow. And you can tell the missile which RP it should fly towards inflight.

 

 

Yes and what ?

 

I hope you understand that the problem is not "Man mode", we all know that DL pod+MITL  is required in this mode.

 

The question is :

 

"is MITL" mandatoty for "Direct mode and "Coordinate mode",

 

The manual clearly say "NO", I give you the manual parts, you need to read them carefully, and if it's not clear for you, i can do nothing more.

 

The remaining question is :

 

"Since MITL is not mandatory for Dir & Coo mode, do we need the DL pod for these modes?"

Edited December 1, 2020 by sylkhan

[razo+r]

First part was directed at you saying: 

Quote

There is NO "route mode", you mean "Direct mode" and I don't think you can change the SPI(WPT) while the missile is in flight, it is determine before launch.

 

The Manual says yes, and not no.

 

A few quotes from the manual:

 

Quote

C-802AKG is another kind of animal. As a derivative of C-802AK, with over 150km of low-profile range and man in the loop (MITL) control

 

Quote

To use MITL mode, JF-17 needs to carry data link pod.

 

But as stated before, it could use some re-phrasing.

 

It is mandatory. How many more times do I have to tell you?

 

Or did you even read the linked threads stating the same?

 

 

 

Edit:

 

If you are not convinced, why don't you try it out?

 

Here's how to try it:

 

1) Make a mission with you in the JF-17 with only 802AKG. Now go fly, make something that is preferably 40NM away from you SPI and launch the weapons. 

 

What do you see?

 

2) Same mission, but now load the DL pod. Fly, make something that is further than 40NM SPI and launch the weapons.

 

What is happening now?

 

When you've done the test, you can answer the question, if it is mandatory to carry the DL pod or not.

Edited December 1, 2020 by razor1606688430

[sylkhan]

1 hour ago, razor1606688430 said:

First part was directed at you saying: 

"There is NO "route mode", you mean "Direct mode" and I don't think you can change the SPI(WPT) while the missile is in flight, it is determine before launch."

 

Ah, then your answer was irrelevant, since my sentence was about "direct mode" not "Man mode", and about (SPI)WPT not RP points.

 

1 hour ago, razor1606688430 said:

The Manual says yes, and not no.

 

"2.7.3 – CM-802AKG TV-GUIDED MISSILE(DIR, Direct)

- 9.Select Final Attack Mode(POPUP or SKIM). We will choose POPUP.
2.7.4 –CM-802AKG TV-GUIDED MISSILE(COO, Coordinates)

- 9.Select Final Attack Mode(POPUP or SKIM). We will choose POPUP.
2.7.5 –CM-802AKG TV-GUIDED MISSILE(MANUAL + MAN-IN-THE-LOOP)

- 9.Final Attack is irrelevant for this mode since Man-In-The-Loop requires manual control."

 

MITL required only in "Man mode" like i state already many times, not in Direct or coordinate mode

 

1 hour ago, razor1606688430 said:

A few quotes from the manual:

 

Quote

C-802AKG is another kind of animal. As a derivative of C-802AK, with over 150km of low-profile range and man in the loop (MITL) control

 

Quote

To use MITL mode, JF-17 needs to carry data link pod.

 

 

 

Yes and what ?? nothing new here.

From my previous post

"I hope you understand that the problem is not "Man mode", we all know that DL pod + MITL  is required in this mode."

 

1 hour ago, razor1606688430 said:

It is mandatory. How many more times do I have to tell you?

 

As many times as you want, since it isn't clearly state in the manual.

 

Only DEKA can give the answer to this.

 

1 hour ago, razor1606688430 said:

Or did you even read the linked threads stating the same?

 

Don't need others to do my own conclusion.

Edited December 1, 2020 by sylkhan

[razo+r]

Not only did you quote a non-official manual, but you also seem to just read what you want to read.

 

But regardless, it even says it in Chucks Guide. Quote from Chucks guide:

 

Quote

...and require the missile to be manually remote -controlled by the pilot once it is close enough to the target . The CM -802AKG missile requires a datalink pod to be installed to ensure communication between the pilot and the missile .

 

So there are now 2 Manuals saying that the DL pod is required to use the weapon.

 

If you are still not convinced, try it out yourself. I've written above how you can test it.

Edited December 1, 2020 by razor1606688430

[sylkhan]

2 hours ago, razo+r said:

Not only did you quote a non-official manual, but you also seem to just read what you want to read.

 

FYI there is no offical manual, just a quick guide

And in this quick guide, it is nowhere stipulate that MITL is required in DIR/COO mode.

 

and i already mentioned it :

 

From the DEKA quick guide

 

C-802AKG is different, at specific mod, you can control the weapon from launch to hit.
C-802AKG has three launch modes : DIR, COO and MAN.
In DIR mode, missile fly to SPI directly.
In COO mode missile will attack PPpoint.
For MAN mode, missile will fly through RPpoints.
In DIR and COO mode,seeker will power on 20km before the designated target point.
In MAN mode, seeker will power on about 2 km before the last waypoint and enter MITL mode.

 

It is said in this guide that in DIR/COO mode the missile go directly to the target and no mention of MITL

Not clear( enough for you ?

 

2 hours ago, razo+r said:

But regardless, it even says it in Chucks Guide. Quote from Chucks guide:

Quote

...and require the missile to be manually remote -controlled by the pilot once it is close enough to the target . The CM -802AKG missile requires a datalink pod to be installed to ensure communication between the pilot and the missile .

 

(where) page please ?

Is it for dir/coo modes ?

Edit :

OK I see it, that just confirm that AKG has MITL capacity and need DL pod to manually controlled the missile, nothing new, it's like "Man mode" works, but it is not directly relate to DIR/COO mode.

 

If you don't have better evidence that MITL is mandatoty in DIR/COO modes, please stop wasting my time.

Edited December 1, 2020 by sylkhan

[razo+r]

That info is as related to DIR/COO as it is to MAN. It is required for the missile. Written in both manuals as of now. Appart from these two sources stating the DL pod is required, the only additional evidence I can give you is to read the thread linked below (some people of dekka have answered there too...)

 

Just because the pod is not mentioned in the DIR/COO mode, it doesn't mean it is not required. Or maybe twist the question: Why is it not required? Do you have any sources stating that it is NOT required for this MITL-controlled weapon? (not mentioning it does not equal not required)

 

Also, you are wasting your time. You could do the test that you told me to try. If you had done it yourself, you'd see it. I did your test and I have reported the results to you. But it seems you didn't do more test as you told you would do. After all, you said you don't want others to do your conclusion, so why not try it yourself like I've already told you several times?

 

Or you could have read this thread, which involves people with more knowledge than me. After all, it is the same topic as yours and has the solution in it. Try it, especially page 2. I will guarantee you, you won't be disappointed and find your answer: 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2020 by razo+r