How the hell do you guys land this thing?

[Stearmandriver]

... with a couple differences, the main one being the way the relationship between approach speed and AoA changes with load factor.  If you were making a 30 - 35 degree AoB turn to a short final (say you got just a bit wrapped up) in a KC10 you might be more interested in AoA ;).  Does the -10 not have a HUD with an AoA indicator?  I've really come to like it in the 737.  I've always wondered why we didn't use AoA more in civilian aviation, it's such an easy thing to measure and display. 

[HoneyViper]

Good news everyone. Thanks to all your advice I can now do a VFR landing on land every time no sweat, and land on a carrier probably one every three times.

 

I think the biggest hurdle I have now is the final turn, all the instructions say 30 degree bank angle, but when I do that I tend to overshoot. The good carrier landings that I have done tended to have been when I've done a 45 degree bank angle. I'm pretty sure I'm the right distance from the carrier - on the DDI my left wing tip just touches the course line, so I can't work out what's making me overshoot so much.

 

In any case, really appreciate the tips here. Like I said in my previous response, turn out trimming isn't so confusing after all.

[ruddy122]

When I last flew the 10 in 2008 we had no HUD

A good rule of thumb is 4-5 deg nose up on the ADI and power is your weight and take 10% add that to your flight idle N1 and that was your N1 power setting

If you trim for that you only care of the Right and Left on the ILS

[lmp]

Congrats! I'm glad you're seeing progress. Keep at it!

 

The best way to tell your distance to the BRC is to read it off your HSI - it's in the bottom right corner of the screen, over the CSEL text (page 101 of the quick start manual). I found different values in different sources, I aim for about 1.2C. No guessing needed, just make sure you put the HSI on the RIGHT DDI, not the left one - advisories on the left one will cover this information.

 

If you're at the right speed and pulling the right amount of Gs in your first turn and you end up too close to the carrier anyway, maybe you're too far to the right on your upwind leg? I tend to fly at 0.2C and it works for me.

[Stearmandriver]

Everything Imp just said.  If you're the right distance abeam, and on speed, a 27 - 30 degree angle of bank will be what it takes. 

 

Oh, assuming no cross wind.  Remember in normal conditions the boat will steer into the wind for recovery, so wind direction should be roughly a direct headwind on final (maybe 1 or 2 knots crosswind due to the angled deck).  If you have, say, a strong left crosswind on final, blowing over the ship's port side, you'll get blown into the boat during your final turn, necessitating a tighter bank.

[HoneyViper]

Hey Stearmandriver, tried it a few more times and yeah 30 degree bank angle works. Thanks. Dunno what I was doing all the other times where I stuffed it up, I think the bank angle was probably all over the place, but when I keep it right on 30 degrees from the break it lines up perfectly. Thanks again!

[Razor18]

HoneyViper,

 

from your constant overshooting I pretty much suspect you might think you are in a 30 degree bank, but you are in fact maybe only banking 15 degree? The bank scale in both direction starts with a small line at 5 degree, then the next line is 15 degree, and only the next "step" is the 30 degree mark.

 

Also, what is your lateral distance from the carrier, when start turning in? Don't mix up "lateral distance from the course line" with TACAN distance. You will only see lateral distance if you put the HSI on the RIGHT DDI, because on the left DDI, the default blank message line masks the number you are looking for. Lateral distance (right bottom of the HSI) should be around 1.2 NM, heading should be reciprocal BRC, and you should start turning appr. when the TACAN needle is around 5 degrees "after" your 9 o'clock position on the HSI.

Edited December 10, 2020 by Razor18

[=Mac=]

If you use Tacan for your distance from the carrier, it will (should) stay at 1.2 (or 1.3 that I use) throughout your turn until you're in the groove. I'm not sure what the right DDI is giving you when it measures lateral distance. I mean, if it's not LOS (meaning it is calculating your stand off course distance as you slide down the reciprocal BRC) then it should be different from the Tacan measure and, as you get in the groove, it would measure zero (as opposed to the distance from the round down). Can you explain what I'm confused on? 

[xoxen]

deleted

Edited December 11, 2020 by xoxen
I have overseen a lot of threads....

[Razor18]

Lateral distance helps you put yourself in the proper lateral distance from the carrier early on after the break, on downwind. Or even miles out in front, if you (for practice sake) make a very late break resulting in a very long downwind. Looking at TACAN, you can't say your present lateral offset  distance, only LOS or "absolut" distance in any moment. If you use lateral distance from HSI, you can be miles out, but already on proper reciprocal BRC AND already set the proper "future" distance for when you get to the abeam position. So at the end of your break, you can't use TACAN distance to know where you are reg. perpendicular distance from BRC. It is kind of an "offset localizer for downwind".

 

The other (less precise) method is to have the HSI on 10 NM scale, in this case your aircraft symbol left wingtip should about touch the BRC course line flying along downwind. TACAN distance is usually 0.1 more, than the HSI lateral distance at abeam position.

 

Hope this helps

[ruddy122]

Big thing is look outside to judge how much bank you need on the transition to final

IRL if you go above 30 your risk for stalling is huge in the Hornet the 2nd Long line is 30


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[CBStu]

On 12/10/2020 at 5:01 PM, Razor18 said:

HoneyViper,

The bank scale in both direction starts with a small line at 5 degree, then the next line is 15 degree, and only the next "step" is the 30 degree mark.

 

Also, what is your lateral distance from the carrier, when start turning in? Don't mix up "lateral distance from the course line" with TACAN distance. You will only see lateral distance if you put the HSI on the RIGHT DDI, because on the left DDI, the default blank message line masks the number you are looking for. Lateral distance (right bottom of the HSI) should be around 1.2 NM, heading should be reciprocal BRC, and you should start turning appr. when the TACAN needle is around 5 degrees "after" your 9 o'clock position on the HSI.

 

This is how I do it w/ HSI on the left screen. As I am coming down the downwind leg I keep watching that distance decrease. When at the 90 to the ship I hope it is 1.2. If it is >1.2, I will bank closer to the 15deg line at maybe 20. If it is <1.2, I will be closer to the 30deg.  Of course my bank angle isn't rock solid, but I try to get it to 'average' out to the above. When using Banklers mission I will turn like Razor says so I don't get a 'too long on downwind' score deduction. If not using Banklers I will wait just a little longer. BTW waiting just a little longer before making the first break turn also makes things a little easier. 1.3nm beyond the ship beats 1.0nm. 

[ruddy122]

Another trick from Chuck’s Guide, Forums, and the Supercarrier Manual that works is listen to BRC and subtract 10 on your course select that is the runway direction

Also put ALT it’s a switch but every little bit helps

At landing Weight shoot for 140 or Orange Donut


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[Razor18]

23 minutes ago, CBStu said:

This is how I do it w/ HSI on the left screen. As I am coming down the downwind leg I keep watching that distance decrease. When at the 90 to the ship I hope it is 1.2.

 

And if your HSI is on the right DDI, you don't have to only hope until the abeam position. You can see it all the way, beginning as early as finishing break, so you can set it along downwind by the time reaching the rounddown. That's the point in it.

Edited December 13, 2020 by Razor18

[Amarok_73]

"Stop trying to land it and LAND IT!" to paraphrase Morpheus.
Only two things You need to follow, and both are on Your HUD - FPM and E-bracket. Keep the FPM on the runway's threshold, and keep the speed so the FPM is within the E-bracket.

That's it.

 

Edited December 13, 2020 by Pipok

[Razor18]

I think FPM is called rather VV in the Hornet. Might be wrong tough...

[ruddy122]

Technically Pipok’s correct

FPM=Flight Path Marker

In DCS Hornet is called VV velocity vector it’s the same thing tells the pilot where your plane is heading too


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[Stearmandriver]

On 12/12/2020 at 5:52 AM, ruddy122 said:

IRL if you go above 30 your risk for stalling is huge in the Hornet the 2nd Long line is 30

 

Why would the risk for stalling be huge in more than a 30 degree bank?  In PA mode the FCS just maintains a given AoA, right?  So if you're trimmed for correct AoA it should maintain that.  Critical AoA does not change with load factor or anything else, that's what makes AoA such a great parameter to use compared to air speed. 

 

Or are you saying the FCS is incapable of maintaining AoA in steeper banks? Honest question; I'd never heard that before. 

 

... None of which is to say that you should need a steeper bank in the pattern. 

 

"Flight path marker", "flight path vector", and "velocity vector" are 3 synonymous terms I've heard in real life.  There are probably more, depending on airframe and what the avionics manufacturer wants to call that circle ;).

Edited December 13, 2020 by Stearmandriver

[ruddy122]

My friend died cause he turned too steeply in a T-37

In heavy airplanes like the KC-10 if your on speed and you go to 45 or 60 you will stall

If you go above 30 in the traffic pattern you become your own test pilot


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[Stearmandriver]

56 minutes ago, ruddy122 said:

My friend died cause he turned too steeply in a T-37

In heavy airplanes like the KC-10 if your on speed and you go to 45 or 60 you will stall

If you go above 30 in the traffic pattern you become your own test pilot


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Looks like a little misunderstanding between speed and angle of attack.  Yes, if you're flying an airspeed and you roll into a steep bank, your angle of attack necessary to maintain that airspeed will increase with load factor - and load factor increases with angle of bank. 

 

Thus, a wing will stall at a higher indicated airspeed as load factor increases (for instance, in a steeper angle of bank).

 

Remember, an airplane can be stalled at any airspeed, in any attitude, at any load factor (except zero g).  The one constant is angle of attack.  A wing stalls at its critical AoA, and that value never changes (except if you reconfigure the shape of the airfoil with flaps or slats).

 

This is why directly flying AoA instead of speed is so useful - speed and load factor become irrelevant.  As long as you're flying a correct AoA, you cannot stall the aircraft. 

 

You'll notice even in DCS that if you make a 45 degree bank to final while maintaining correct AoA, your indicated airspeed will increase quite a bit.  You can see that if you maintained a fixed airspeed instead of AoA through that turn, your AoA would increase dangerously close to a stall.  This is why I said above that I never understood why we didn't use AoA more in civilian aviation, though we're finally starting to.  Even in general aviation, there are a number of low cost AoA indexers now available.  A friend and I teach an upset recovery syllabus in a super Decathlon and I've suggested to the owner that he put an AoA indexer in the plane so students can see the relationship between all this.  I think it would really benefit people. 

[*Aquila*]

13 hours ago, Pipok said:

"Stop trying to land it and LAND IT!" to paraphrase Morpheus.
Only two things You need to follow, and both are on Your HUD - FPM and E-bracket. Keep the FPM on the runway's threshold, and keep the speed so the FPM is within the E-bracket.

That's it.

 

 

This. Once your FPM is on the runway's treshold, there are only 3 important things:

1) AoA

2) AoA

3) AoA

In this order.

 

[Razor18]

What can you watch on AoA after you trimmed the plane out to the E-bracket in a first place? While adjusting the FPM with the throttle for climb or descent, AoA doesn't change in the Hornet at all. That's the point of it... Or?...

[ruddy122]

Trim is your friend

You are trimming for an Airspeed or AOA in the Hornet

If you trim right you have to be careful of your throttle inputs because your e bracket and FPM will be together and respond together without touching the stick

Small but positive

Large inputs will destabilize you


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[*Aquila*]

The first thing you need to do is learn how to fly the plane at +/- 1000 ft AGL, 0 ft/min vertical speed, landing configuration (gear and flaps down), with the AoA indexer showing the orange O. Once you know how to do that, you just need to use the throttle: more thrust to climb, less thrust to descend, no variation to AoA.

 

The throttle makes you go up or down, the trim and stick drive the AoA.

[ruddy122]

I used to tell my students two things

1) You control the plane not the other way around

2) Small but positive inputs

Happy Landings


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