How the hell do you guys land this thing?

[HoneyViper]

I think I've tried 100 times to do a VFR landing now, and almost every time I bounce around like a yo-yo and inevitably crash. I've watched videos like

one dozens of times too to try and understand it, but my plane just never seems to stay at the speed or altitude or AoA it's supposed to be at. These are all the things that go wrong:

• At the left turn on the upwind leg when I try to pull 1% of speed, I can't even keep my velocity vector at the horizon line, I either gain or lose altitude rapidly. I guess I don't really know how to use the stick properly.
  
• After the left turn and when I've got my flaps and landing gear down, I can't keep the plane stable, I inevitably sink or lift, even if I come out of the turn at 130-150kts. Videos say "use the trim" but I have no idea what this really means. How long do I hold the "trim" switch up or down for? How can you keep track of how much you have trimmed? Sometimes I even find that my plane banks left or right because I've accidentally trimmed that way. And how do you get the trim back to neutral?
  
• My velocity vector and E brackets never really meet up; they're always flying past each other. Again, "use the trim" or "control altitude with thrust" means nothing to me - I do all that, but not knowing when or how much to use them means I'm just inputting random actions.
  
• Maintaining the 30 degree bank is a laugh - I find myself suddenly sinking or suddenly rising. Then when I have some semblance of control turns out I have turned too acutely and the runway is off to the right, or I've turned to obtusely and bye-bye runway.
  
• If by some miracle I've lined myself up to the runway, I still have to contend with the fact that the E bracket and velocity vector aren't aligned. Trying to align them shoots me up or draws me own. And again, "trimming" is of no help because I have no idea what trimming is actually doing.
  

Bit of a rant, but I'm losing patience with this. Seriously how do you guys actually come to understand "trimming" and balancing the aircraft correctly in the air and turning while maintaining altitude and controlling your speed? It's all just so random for me.

[Ahmed]

Looks like you mainly need to understand the FCS logic and practice trimming the DCS Hornet.

 

For the 1% pull on the break, if you don't want to climb or descend, you will need the appropriate bank angle, get a feel for it. When you lower gear and flaps, especially if light and already level, there is still some balloming in the DCS Hornet that you will have to deal with. Then the important thing is trimming on speed, so that's what you should practice until you understand. It'll be really simple when you get it. As for maintaining 30º of bank..... there is still some FM issue with having negative lateral static stability with flaps full (/half?), it tends to overshoot, so you need to bring the bank angle into your scan and continuously correct for that. Once you roll on final you should be already trimmed on speed, if you are trying to do that in the last seconds of the approach it will likely be messy as you say, so just practice trimming on a level flight and once you get the idea apply that to your landing pattern.

 

Lex had a very good video on that but I can't find it anymore, maybe somebody else will post it.

[lmp]

I think the main thing you're doing wrong is trying to learn the whole procedure all at once. This way your errors compound - you mess up your first turn and then when it's time to get on speed, you're correcting for whatever errors you've made in the previous step. Then, before you're properly trimmed, at the right altitude and on top of things, you already have to start your next turn and so on. Instead of focusing what you should be doing now, you're fixing what you've already messed up and running out of time before you have to do the next step of the procedure.

 

I'd do this instead:

 

First, instead of going for the tactical landings (CASE I/II/IIIs, overhead breaks etc.), practice a classic rectangular traffic pattern and make it a biiig pattern at first. That'll let you learn to get on speed and get a feel for the low speed performance of the jet. You'll find the Hornet is actually quite easy and forgiving to land (easier than the Viper for sure!) :).

 

Then break up your CASE I into individual steps and practice them separately until they feel right and you're happy with them. This way you won't always be behind what the aircraft is doing and correcting errors from the previous steps. So do your first turn, focusing on the entry and exit parameters only. Then, once that is comfortable, practice getting on speed quickly without losing altitude. Then put the two together...

[schmiefel]

Maybe this recent tutorial video shows quite well how it's done to get and keep the F/A-18C on speed after gears and flaps are down - its German only but maybe one could use automatic translated subtitles to get an idea what he's talking about:

Edited November 26, 2020 by schmiefel

[kengou]

 

imo the key thing missing is understanding trim. When you go gear down, take your hands off the stick and trim pitch up until the e-bracket matches the flight path marker. Next, use throttle alone, not the flight stick, to change your pitch and try to maintain level flight. Practice flying around like this before landing, just maintaining level flight, gradual descent and climbs, level turns, etc.

[Habu_69]

Follow Imp's advice and practice long final approaches to learn pitch/trim/thrust control. You have already discovered that the VV and staple relationship is very sensitive to speed. I find that holding the pitch-up trim hat for about 3 seconds after gear down gets the AOA staple close to the correct attitude. Then make small throttle and trim adjustments and try to "catch" the VV on correct AOA by anticipating its rising and falling in the HUD. At about 3 degree glide slope place the VV on the runway threshold and ride the jet to touchdown. Flaring the jet at touchdown is strictly optional and not practiced by Navy pilots. At the risk of sounding smug, the F-18 is really quite easy to land and once you master the throttle you can do it in your sleep. How does one get to Carnegie Hall?

[CBStu]

I suggest your forget pattern landings for now. Just do straight in landings. Find one that starts you 10-15 miles out at 3-4000ft. Cut the throttle to idle. Let speed drop to just under 250 and drop the gear. Let speed further drop to about 180-190 and go to full flaps. Start trimming up to get the VV in the E bracket and watch speed carefully. At about 145 start bringing on some throttle. Your speed will be about 135 when fully set for approach w/ gear and full flaps. You will almost never stop making throttle adjustments all the way to the ground. But they must be fine because speed below about 130 and you drop like a stone. Speed above 140 and you stop descending. Once you have a stable descent put the VV on the tire marks on the runway and hold that until you touch down. Throttle will adjust where the VV is in relation to the tire marks height wise. Left or right stick will adjust your left to right alignment w/ the runway. A very unofficial but maybe helpful note: If you are not lined up w/ the runway yet, you can still use the throttle to control your descent. Look at how far the tire marks are from the top of your screen and put your VV at that same distance. A note on equipment. You need a throttle that allows fine adjustments. I flew another game for a year or so w/ just the throttle that was built in to the base of the stick. Then I started w/ DCS and the FA-18 because I wanted to learn carrier landings. AT that point the throttle was just too crude. I ended up buying a TM Warthog throttle which was quite expensive but it was also a game changer. BTW, once you find a mission that puts you where you want to be to start your approach, when you hit the runway, use 'shift + R' to reset and start over. This take a LOT of practice. Maybe a 100 approaches to get comfortable.

[Glide]

I don't touch the trim on landing at all with the F/A-18 (or the Viper for that matter) unless I'm damaged. I use a combination of throttle and angle of attack to "catch the hook" or "fly the ball". Practice slow flight in landing configuration like this by flying around the map. It's the same approach on dry land.

[AKULA_OPTIMUS]

I don't touch the trim on landing at all with the F/A-18 (or the Viper for that matter) unless I'm damaged. I use a combination of throttle and angle of attack to "catch the hook" or "fly the ball". Practice slow flight in landing configuration like this by flying around the map. It's the same approach on dry land.

 

+1 Forget about the trim, you don´t need it at all in the F-18 besides take off, it will only complicate things. Also forget patterns for now, just straight approaches until you get it right. I will even say forget about the AOA indicator, just concetrate on the velocity vector, and try to maintain it at the beginning of the runway while you make your approach. When you are able to land without crashing, lets move to the other things:thumbup:

 

Also, check you axis curves in the controls menu, it will make the joystick inputs a lot more smooth. Good luck :p

[ruddy122]

Practice practice practice

 

My thing is don’t chase AOA it makes it worse

 

Shoot for 140 if you can

 

 

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[ruddy122]

From my flying experience the less stick and throttle inputs the more stable you’ll be

 

You fly the plane not the other way around

 

 

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[ruddy122]

Whatever you do in the Hornet don’t Flare

 

It will feel uncomfortable but the Hornet does not believe in flaring

 

Less than 5 deg nose down will prevent the gear peeking through the top of the wings

 

Good Luck!!!

 

 

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[Razor18]

Does the OP expect answers about how the Hornet CAN be landed "alternatively", or rather how a Hornet should be landed?

[mcnabb100]

Does the OP expect answers about how the Hornet CAN be landed "alternatively", or rather how a Hornet should be landed?

 

While the suggestions above may not be technically correct, they would be good practice to gain flight time and familiarity with the FCS and how the plane reacts to inputs at low speed.

[Habu_69]

Does the OP expect answers about how the Hornet CAN be landed "alternatively", or rather how a Hornet should be landed?

 

+1. I assume OP will eventually want to fly CVN ops, in which case trim/throttle control to maintain proper AOA will be essential.

[Razor18]

That's what I'm assuming, which if so, makes me scratch my head reading replies starting with something like "Forget trimm altogether...". I dunno...

[rob10]

[*]My velocity vector and E brackets never really meet up; they're always flying past each other. Again, "use the trim" or "control altitude with thrust" means nothing to me - I do all that, but not knowing when or how much to use them means I'm just inputting random actions.

...

[*]If by some miracle I've lined myself up to the runway, I still have to contend with the fact that the E bracket and velocity vector aren't aligned. Trying to align them shoots me up or draws me own. And again, "trimming" is of no help because I have no idea what trimming is actually doing.

 

As others have suggested, practice one thing at a time, preferably starting with getting it trimmed to proper AOA. There is no correct "amount" of trim, you adjust it to whatever you need to get the VV in the E bracket. Don't worry about what it is, just keep adding/subtracting until the plane is stable where you want it in the HUD. Aim to be around 140 kts (doesn't need to be exact, higher if you're heavy, lower if your light). Adjust your trim with the stick neutral -- you may need to give a bit of up or down on the stick to avoid crashing while you're learning, but make sure you only try to align VV and E bracket while it's neutral or you'll just keep chasing it. If the VV is below the E bracket, pull back with trim, if it's above the E bracket push the nose down with trim. Once you get on proper AOA (once you get the hang of it you'll use it while trimming) use the throttle to control your altitude. You want aim for NOT using the stick at all to increase/decrease altitude (with pitch), the stick should only be used to control turning (roll). If you increase throttle you'll increase or hold your altitude. If you're trimmed properly your VV will stay in the E bracket while you make small throttle changes. If you decrease throttle you'll start losing altitude. Once you're properly trimmed with correct AOA you'll maintain around 130-140 kts usually (depending on weight) in straight flight and throttle won't affect it that much, it'll just increase or decrease your altitude. If you're not trimmed properly you'll just end up fighting too many things when you start to add a turn and maintain level flight (which also will require increasing throttle to maintain altitude).

Short version is: get trimmed to your correct AOA WITH A NEUTRAL THE STICK (i.e. not pushing or pulling)!!! (once you get this, all the rest become easier). Then use throttle to control your altitude (increase climbs, decrease drops altitude) -- SMALL ADJUSTMENTS ONLY!!

And FWIW, I obviously disagree with those who say don't worry about trim. Trim makes everything else soooo much easier to deal with, so why not learn to do it properly from the start rather than have to unlearn old habits and relearn new.

One last thing (maybe should have been at the start): WHAT TRIM DOES - it moves and holds the flight surfaces at some point off of "neutral" so that when your stick is neutral you will still have up/down/left or right input even when the stick is centred. When you trim up (back) on the trim, it's as if you are constantly pulling the nose up even when your stick is centred. With left trim, it's like you have a bit left roll input on your stick even when it's centred.

[HoneyViper]

Thanks for all your responses. Yes, my intention is to land it properly using the trim function etc.

 

I think for the next little while I'll just do some higher altitude flying to get a better feel for trimming, banking, turning and getting the VV onto the E bracket. Then practice some straight in landings.

[Habu_69]

Well, that is of course how RL pilots learn these skills. Much more forgiving to master trim control at 5000 FT before trying it during landing.

[Stearmandriver]

A basic tenet of real-world airmanship in ANYTHING is to fly a trimmed-up aircraft at all times. In reality, you should never be "forgetting the trim"; failure to trim correctly would be an automatic unsat on any checkride you'd ever take, civilian or military. The reason is that a mis-trimmed state makes the plane much harder to control. Obviously we can do anything we want in a game, but dunno why you'd want to make your job harder... ;)

[HoneyViper]

Well I played around with trim and the VV, it was actually quite easy. It seems all I need to do is trim the VV onto the E bracket and it kind of just stays there. I had thought that you were supposed to be trimming the thing the whole time. Apparently not.

 

Getting better with the turns too, although still not very stable. The hardest turn is the final "30 degree" turn to come to the runway at 300ft AGL. But I find that a little power before the turn keeps me from sinking during the turn, and reducing power just before straightening out prevents ballooning.

[rob10]

Well I played around with trim and the VV, it was actually quite easy. It seems all I need to do is trim the VV onto the E bracket and it kind of just stays there. I had thought that you were supposed to be trimming the thing the whole time. Apparently not.

 

Yep, that's the purpose and beauty of trim :). Makes for one less thing to keep in place while flying (esp landing and AAR). Keep at it, eventually it'll all fall in place and you'll do it without thinking. :thumbup:

[Arbil]

There's some serious misinformation that will lead to negative training in some of these comments. Some people saying forget about trim and that navy pilots never flair. Both are incorrect. If you're having that much trouble landing you need to practice getting the jet dirty/configured for landing, which includes trimming the e-bracket with the velocity vector, which in the hornet should be easy because the fcs. Trim the vv to the center of the e-bracket and you really don't need to adjust it at all after that. Only as you fly around and burn fuel/lose weight will slight adjustments be needed. Get the jet like this then just practice keeping it level at the same altitude with nothing but the throttle. Do that for hours. And navy pilots absolutely will flair for land based landings if they are over weight, same weight restrictions as carrier landings, 33k and above you flair. On the boat they will dump fuel to get under they weight, so in a sense never flairing on the boat is correct, but on land, flairs sometimes do happen. This is in the natops.

[RightYouAreKen]

This youtube video was what made it all click for me.  It really explained trim, AOA, and how to manage attitude during turns really clearly for me.

 

https://youtu.be/Xso1mMo_1Mg

 

He also has several other awesome carrier ops videos that for some reason are unlisted, but are linked in this article.  https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/21790/f-a-18-pilot-gives-incredibly-detailed-instructions-on-how-to-actually-land-on-a-carrier

Edited December 2, 2020 by RightYouAreKen

[ruddy122]

Heavy former USAF guys like me used speed from our checklist to fly at 1.3Vs

We know how heavy the KC10 is and from that using our handheld checklist we fly that speed that was published

Hornet drivers use AOA

Same concepts just looked at differently

Not a foreign thing we are talking about the same thing just different things to look for


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