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DCS AI....... why so bad?


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I am not one for complaining generally, but having only just started using the AI within the sim, I am amazed at how useless they are after nearly 10 Years of development etc.......

 

I played the other sim for many years up until approx 8 years ago, and it’s no comparison. I just wonder what the reason is and why it has not been addressed either by the community or ED along the way....... is it hideously complex or tied to the base engine in some way that makes it really difficult to tweak? You see all the cool scripts etc that the community come up with such as air boss and moose and it just makes you wonder.......

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System specs: Scan 3XS Ryzen 5900X, 64GB Corsair veng DDR4 3600, EVGA GTX 3090 Win 10. Vive pro2 , 50 inch 4K Phillips monitor. Tir5                                                                            F/A-18C: Virpil T50CM-2 base with RS F-18 grip, Cubesim TM MFD's, Winwing F-18 throttle, DogFightBoss UFC, Winwing panels & MK14 ACES seat :cool: 

Viper: Real simulator FSSB R3 with F-16 SGRH grip, Cougar throttle & TUSBA, plus Vipergear ICP. MFG crosswind rudders. 

Helo ( Apache) set up: Virpil collective with Alpha grip, Rainman Cyclic with Warthog base and TM F18 grip, MFG crosswind rudders, Playseat on 3DoF motion platform. 

VR Settings: 90% (90 & 100 ), MSAA x2, shadows off, water med, terrain low, draw distance med, no aniso. DCS PD =1.    15ms GPU frame time & super smooth....looks great too.

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It's too complex.

 

AI in flight sim used to be simple. Just simple script to complete assigned task unless destroyed. AI in DCS is influenced by many factors. Light levels, moon light, clouds, wind, threats, LOS, collision, overcast.... per AI you add in the mission. Not just your wingman but also enemy and ground units. And it's not like racing sim where all AI use same logic. Every type of units have their own AI in DCS. Adds up to a lot of computation.

 

Why ED does this? Maybe they're preparing for dynamic campaigns IDK. But mainstream computers today are not ready for this much computation.

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Growling Sidewinder asked that question in a interview with the CEO of DCS too.

 

 

+1 Thas's what I was referring to...

Brrrrrrrrrrrt

I'd rather call in a Strike Eagle...

I7 6700K, MSI Z270 Gaming Pro Carbon, 32GB G.Skill Ripjaw V 3200, Inno3D GTX 1080, Samsung 970 Evo, Thrustmaster 1.6000M, TrackIr 5

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In my opinion, based on that video, I think they're going wrong direction. They're talking about more algorithms and unpredictability.

Yes he talked about getting rid of stupid decisions but they didn't purposely add those stupid decisions into AI did they? It's conflict of different algorithms that leads to stupid decisions.

 

So in order to remove those stupid decisions, they will add MORE algorithms to "prevent" AI from making stupid decisions. Instead of removing the algorithm that caused the stupid decisions.

 

Many people thinks there has been big advancement in AI thanks to Google deep learning AI and AlphaGo marketing. AlphaGo is basically a Monte Carlo Tree search algorithm. Trial and error. AlphaGo will crash if the board size is changed. It is impressive display of computing power but the programming itself is age old.

 

Talk to Alexa or Google or Siri. It's all programmed response.

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It's too complex.

 

AI in flight sim used to be simple. Just simple script to complete assigned task unless destroyed. AI in DCS is influenced by many factors. Light levels, moon light, clouds, wind, threats, LOS, collision, overcast.... per AI you add in the mission. Not just your wingman but also enemy and ground units. And it's not like racing sim where all AI use same logic. Every type of units have their own AI in DCS. Adds up to a lot of computation.

 

Why ED does this? Maybe they're preparing for dynamic campaigns IDK. But mainstream computers today are not ready for this much computation.

 

20+ year-old flight sims have better AI than DCS in that regard, with the same variables influencing them.

Z390 Aorus Elite | i5-9600k @5.0Ghz | RTX3060 12GB | 32GB DDR4 | Windows 10 | Quest 2 | Warthog HOTAS | Sahaj 20cm Extension

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Thanks, that’s interesting... what about less complex behaviour though, such as following basic simple instructions......why for example, if a command is available in the drop down, to “go to tanker” and the tanker is there in front and ready, would they not do that? Or not reply “unable”? And why when I have an enemy fighter locked up when I say “engage my target” do they not respond? These are just 2 recent experiences in basic training missions....... my experience so far is that I can barely get them to do anything and often they simply do not respond.....

System specs: Scan 3XS Ryzen 5900X, 64GB Corsair veng DDR4 3600, EVGA GTX 3090 Win 10. Vive pro2 , 50 inch 4K Phillips monitor. Tir5                                                                            F/A-18C: Virpil T50CM-2 base with RS F-18 grip, Cubesim TM MFD's, Winwing F-18 throttle, DogFightBoss UFC, Winwing panels & MK14 ACES seat :cool: 

Viper: Real simulator FSSB R3 with F-16 SGRH grip, Cougar throttle & TUSBA, plus Vipergear ICP. MFG crosswind rudders. 

Helo ( Apache) set up: Virpil collective with Alpha grip, Rainman Cyclic with Warthog base and TM F18 grip, MFG crosswind rudders, Playseat on 3DoF motion platform. 

VR Settings: 90% (90 & 100 ), MSAA x2, shadows off, water med, terrain low, draw distance med, no aniso. DCS PD =1.    15ms GPU frame time & super smooth....looks great too.

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Thanks, that’s interesting... what about less complex behaviour though, such as following basic simple instructions......why for example, if a command is available in the drop down, to “go to tanker” and the tanker is there in front and ready, would they not do that? Or not reply “unable”? And why when I have an enemy fighter locked up when I say “engage my target” do they not respond? These are just 2 recent experiences in basic training missions....... my experience so far is that I can barely get them to do anything and often they simply do not respond.....

 

It's not the complexity of the "task" that matters. Complexity of the "algorithms" conflict each other to break even the simple tasks.

 

Reporting, hardly does anything. People were complaining about broken AI behavior that existed for years in Ka-50. They act like they never heard of it. Then asks for track. I provide track and doesn't even get acknowledged.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/forum/englis...ai#post6463885

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I can see that it goes back a long way....but in my recent simple example above, I cant imagine what conflicting algorithm made them ignore my instruction to go to tanker...? it was a simple mission to practice refueling from the right hose...

System specs: Scan 3XS Ryzen 5900X, 64GB Corsair veng DDR4 3600, EVGA GTX 3090 Win 10. Vive pro2 , 50 inch 4K Phillips monitor. Tir5                                                                            F/A-18C: Virpil T50CM-2 base with RS F-18 grip, Cubesim TM MFD's, Winwing F-18 throttle, DogFightBoss UFC, Winwing panels & MK14 ACES seat :cool: 

Viper: Real simulator FSSB R3 with F-16 SGRH grip, Cougar throttle & TUSBA, plus Vipergear ICP. MFG crosswind rudders. 

Helo ( Apache) set up: Virpil collective with Alpha grip, Rainman Cyclic with Warthog base and TM F18 grip, MFG crosswind rudders, Playseat on 3DoF motion platform. 

VR Settings: 90% (90 & 100 ), MSAA x2, shadows off, water med, terrain low, draw distance med, no aniso. DCS PD =1.    15ms GPU frame time & super smooth....looks great too.

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I'm willing to test and reproduce this issue. Could you please provide a track or at least a mission showing the issue?

 

thanks....I tried again today and he tanked ok...... Maverick practice.miz

 

I posted the mission though. thank you....not sure if this a dcs issue or me not knowing how to best set up the AI and use them......

System specs: Scan 3XS Ryzen 5900X, 64GB Corsair veng DDR4 3600, EVGA GTX 3090 Win 10. Vive pro2 , 50 inch 4K Phillips monitor. Tir5                                                                            F/A-18C: Virpil T50CM-2 base with RS F-18 grip, Cubesim TM MFD's, Winwing F-18 throttle, DogFightBoss UFC, Winwing panels & MK14 ACES seat :cool: 

Viper: Real simulator FSSB R3 with F-16 SGRH grip, Cougar throttle & TUSBA, plus Vipergear ICP. MFG crosswind rudders. 

Helo ( Apache) set up: Virpil collective with Alpha grip, Rainman Cyclic with Warthog base and TM F18 grip, MFG crosswind rudders, Playseat on 3DoF motion platform. 

VR Settings: 90% (90 & 100 ), MSAA x2, shadows off, water med, terrain low, draw distance med, no aniso. DCS PD =1.    15ms GPU frame time & super smooth....looks great too.

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......why for example, if a command is available in the drop down, to “go to tanker” and the tanker is there in front and ready, would they not do that? Or not reply “unable”?

Since I don't own the Hornet, I've tested this with the Tomcat.

At first, my wingman would not respond at all. That was because our flight frequency was set to 124 AM in the ME, when my default frequency was 251 AM.

 

To make it simpler, I edited the mission so our flight frequency was 251: both the Tomcat's default preset and the tanker's frequency.

I was then able to ask the wigman to "go to tanker", he acknowleged and delivered (track attached).

 

radios.thumb.png.9b61877f65ad8ccaa2480a72e873a0c9.png

 

I've looked at the Hornet flights in your mission: their flight frequency is already their default frequency (305 AM): this means you can talk with your wingman without changing anything. But since the tanker is on 251 AM, you can't talk with the same radio to both your wingman and the tanker. The most elegant solution is to have radio 1 first preset to 251 AM (tanker) and radio 2 first preset to 305 (flight).

Or you can choose the easy way and set your tanker to 305 AM. Either way, it should work.

 

If you don't want to mess with all these radio complications, you can enable "Easy comms" in the DCS option panel, or enforce it in the mission options.

TomcatAIwingman_refueling.trk


Edited by Flappie

A track or it didn't happen.

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