AoA Indexer Light

[Wizard_03]

55 minutes ago, Skysurfer said:

Yes, which is a good thing but "looking into it" doesnt really have a sense of urgency this rather simple fix needs. I dont want to use some shader mode that isn't supported by ED and technically "break" my game (because this is what manipulating shaders tachnically is) in order to see an AOA indexer in one plane better. We'll see where this goes, really hope we'll see it fixed in the next update.

He acknowledged our concerns and they're going to see what they can do. No need to loose our minds.

 

He's not telling YOU to use shader mods he's saying he does. And balancing lighting with EDs is difficult and it's super subjective especially when everyone has their own gamma preferences. 

[Skysurfer]

29 minutes ago, Wizard_03 said:

He acknowledged our concerns and they're going to see what they can do. No need to loose our minds.

 

He's not telling YOU to use shader mods he's saying he does. And balancing lighting with EDs is difficult and it's super subjective especially when everyone has their own gamma preferences. 

 

Except it's a non-issue in all other modules? I'm not losing my mind just tired of waiting for such a vital yet simple fix for several months now....

[QuiGon]

Isn't @Glowing_Amraam also using a rather low gamma setting <=1.8 for his trailers? It just looks so much better than the default of 2.2.

 

[Skysurfer]

9 hours ago, QuiGon said:

Isn't @Glowing_Amraam also using a rather low gamma setting <=1.8 for his trailers? It just looks so much better than the default of 2.2.

 

Probably. 2.2 is ridiculous. It's not the gamma per se but the "bloom" filter ED decided to put over DCS.

[Wildwind]

I will admit, after I played around with my monitor picture settings a bit, and then discovered that nVidia Control Panel had set me back to "limited" dynamic color instead of "full" again (I had forgotten, it does this every time you update your drivers, which is obnoxious), the sky is no longer painfully bright at the horizon (meaning I can actually use 2.2 and still read the HUD), I can see the green and yellow on the indexer passably well.  it's still pretty dim, and far dimmer than the other DCS aircraft with indexers.  That said, the red light on the indexer is still very difficult to see, and I largely recognize that it's on by the absence of the other two (which means I can't distinguish yellow-and-red from just-yellow very well).

 

This also leads me to observe that it does need to be bright enough in game that even people who have crappy monitors can see it.

Edited December 9, 2020 by Wildwind

[Shahriar0]

And I would add that this brightness issue applies not just to "crappy monitors" or the ones with "limited" dynamic range, but to VR headsets as well - which do not have specific setting/control to adjust.

 

My Gamma is 1.6 and that's what suits me and looks "correct" to my eyes. The point of reference for me is not the Gamma but comparison with other planes using the same Gamma setting. As long as I see the AoA Indexer light in every other plane under different light conditions and angels correctly, then naturally, I expect to see the same level of brightness in the F-14 as well. This reminds me of the landing light. It used to be good, and then in 2.5.6 went very dim in the F-14 until we voiced our complaint and it got fixed. Hope the same ending for AoA Indexer 

[IronMike]

21 hours ago, Skysurfer said:

 

So you are using a shader mod to base your personal opinion on, even though the vast majority of the community is having problems with stock DCS? I cant state this enough but this AOA indexer issue in exclusive to the Tomcat currently. The Flanker, F-16 and F-18 indexers are all perfectly readable. All of these issues only started after the lighting rework in both DCS and your Tomcat itself.

I personally do not use any mods at all. I sometimes have to change builds and dcs versions several times a day, believe me, half a day in and every mod becomes pure nuisance. So no, of course I do not base our verdict on any kind of mods regarding lighting, but only vanilla DCS, all settings on max and default gamma. I myself use a 4k 55" QLED from Samsung, as additional info and run DCS in 4k.

I do know most of the mods of course though, especially Mustang's (naturally), and if I would want to enhance the saturation of my colors, it would be through that. That's all that referred to my personal preference as opposed to lowering gamma values.

And as always, we want to fulfill all your wishes guys, but you have so many - which is great, btw - that we just have to think twice and triple, or else we would be saying yes more often than writing code, adding stuff or fixing things. You also have to weigh that 10 folks having an issue here does not equal the majority. In general the forums represent the voices with complaints, requests, etc... The thousands of other users without complaints are most often the real, quiet majority. But: that does not mean that these voices cannot represent large parts of the majority either. So in the end, it needs to be weighed on the merits of the subject, because no one can really say what the "majority" thinks (and in some cases it does not even matter much). That's just to explain why we need to have a bit of a back and forth with you guys first, before we commit to something. Wishlists can pile extremely high extremely quickly, so both sides need to be sure, yes this is something both wanted firmly and necessary. Hope that makes sense, and as mentioned: we'll look into it again.

Edited December 10, 2020 by IronMike

[Wildwind]

1 hour ago, IronMike said:

I personally do not use any mods at all. I sometimes have to change builds and dcs versions several times a day, believe me, half a day in and every mod becomes pure nuisance. So no, of course I do not base our verdict on any kind of mods regarding lighting, but only vanilla DCS, all settings on max and default gamma. I myself use a 4k 55" QLED from Samsung, as additional info and run DCS in 4k.

I do know most of the mods of course though, especially Mustang's (naturally), and if I would want to enhance the saturation of my colors, it would be through that. That's all that referred to my personal preference as opposed to lowering gamma values.

And as always, we want to fulfill all your wishes guys, but you have so many - which is great, btw - that we just have to think twice and triple, or else we would be saying yes more often than writing code, adding stuff or fixing things. You also have to weigh that 10 folks having an issue here does not equal the majority. In general the forums represent the voices with complaints, requests, etc... The thousands of other users without complaints are most often the real, quiet majority. But: that does not mean that these voices cannot represent large parts of the majority either. So in the end, it needs to be weighed on the merits of the subject, because no one can really say what the "majority" thinks (and in some cases it does not even matter much). That's just to explain why we need to have a bit of a back and forth with you guys first, before we commit to something. Wishlists can pile extremely high extremely quickly, so both sides need to be sure, yes this is something both wanted firmly and necessary. Hope that makes sense, and as mentioned: we'll look into it again.

 

We can be pretty demanding, I know.  But for my part at least, it's because your F-14 module is so doggone good that I don't want to fly other planes, even when something on the F-14 doesn't work the way I expect.  So it makes me impatient for fixes.  You should absolutely take it as a compliment.

 

For my part... just a bit brighter on the red would be sufficient for me now, honestly, but ideally I'd like all three of them to be a somewhat brighter (especially the red).  Right now, I have to fix my eyes on the indexer to see if the red is on (and if the sun is behind me, I can't see it at all), which... fixing your eyes on something inside the cockpit is not something I want to be doing in the groove.  For all I know the other aircraft in DCS might be brighter than is realistic, but I don't need it to be that bright.  Just enough that I can recognize it at a quick glance, which I can't now.

 

 

[draconus]

I was sceptical for a while with this issue, mainly because I don't think it's that critical and urgent as guys try to sell it, but do your SMEs confirm current indexer to be just fine? Isn't it suppose to give some light? Currently it looks fainter than painted cockpit labels during a day. Guys are onto something here, at least those who don't choose to deliberately cripple their vision with low gamma. Let's not forget the indexer light wheel not working.

Gamma 2.2, monitor user had spoken.

[IronMike]

10 hours ago, draconus said:

I was sceptical for a while with this issue, mainly because I don't think it's that critical and urgent as guys try to sell it, but do your SMEs confirm current indexer to be just fine? Isn't it suppose to give some light? Currently it looks fainter than painted cockpit labels during a day. Guys are onto something here, at least those who don't choose to deliberately cripple their vision with low gamma. Let's not forget the indexer light wheel not working.

Gamma 2.2, monitor user had spoken.

 

SMEs keep stressing that most lights were just not visible with direct influence from the sunlight. However: SMEs had a hand they could raise, which is one big difference. The other is that the SMEs think that in general the light in the cockpit is a tad too dim/dark. But less so for the lights, more for surfaces, switches, in general kinda. Which is natural, imagine how "visible" stuff is in your own car at say dusk. On the screen, and depending on the monitor and local dimming etc etc, plus just the way DCS slightly underrepresents the shadow-side of lighting, it appears much darker. The Indexer light is ok, as per their feedback, but again, this is also subjective, even from SMEs. If you guys struggle with it, we don't mind looking into it again.

17 hours ago, Wildwind said:

 

We can be pretty demanding, I know.  But for my part at least, it's because your F-14 module is so doggone good that I don't want to fly other planes, even when something on the F-14 doesn't work the way I expect.  So it makes me impatient for fixes.  You should absolutely take it as a compliment.

 

For my part... just a bit brighter on the red would be sufficient for me now, honestly, but ideally I'd like all three of them to be a somewhat brighter (especially the red).  Right now, I have to fix my eyes on the indexer to see if the red is on (and if the sun is behind me, I can't see it at all), which... fixing your eyes on something inside the cockpit is not something I want to be doing in the groove.  For all I know the other aircraft in DCS might be brighter than is realistic, but I don't need it to be that bright.  Just enough that I can recognize it at a quick glance, which I can't now.

 

 

We absolutely do take it as a compliment, always. Nothing is more valuable than a community that invested as you guys are. Sure, it can be a lot sometimes. But imagine the opposite, how sad that would be... We know it all comes from passion, the same passion we all share. We really appreciate that you guys keep poking us. Please continue to do so.

[Shahriar0]

Thank you IronMike for taking this to the SMEs and getting their feedback.

 

Yes, on behalf of myself and one member of the silent majority that you referred to in your earlier post and hinted that they may not be onboard with this issue (and infact was the person who prodded me to get this issue posted and which resulted in opening this can of warm), I would say, please "look into" this - and by that I am hoping the brightness to match other planes under the same gamma, light angle/condition/etc. setting.

 

Thanks again.

Edited December 11, 2020 by Shahriar0

[DukeGamma]

Has this been fixed/addressed? Using Valve Index I cannot see the light at all.

[RustBelt]

They insist it's not broken, So it's bottom of the priority list to get around to. 

[Hinkey]

+1. If this were an air force aircraft this would be annoying, but I wouldn't worry much about it. For a carrier based jet you need to be able to see the AOA indexer.

[Hinkey]

Thanks for the fix Heatblur. Big improvement!