Turn rate has tanked with new update

[uhntissbaby111]

 

In 99% of cases it is exactly that. Also due to the lack of such attention to detail or "realism" on all other modules in DCS. You can pull and roll your heart out in the F15 or Mig-29 without anything ever breaking.

 

I agree. As DCS has grown, more and more players have shown up looking for a war thunder type experience. I see more and more posts on Reddit asking what’s the most “competitive” plane for multiplayer. All they care about it racking up kills in PvP. Which is fine, ultimately it’s good to have a larger player base. The issue is if the developers start caving to their demands. If realism starts taking a backseat to “balance” and “gameplay.” Luckily I haven’t seen much of that happening. The ability for the F-16 to carry triple Mavs starts to walk that line though. And I see people complaining about long INS alignment times because it precludes them from getting back “in the action.” Or having to boresight Mavs. Luckily HB seems committed to 100% realism and Victory103 mirrors that commitment. Hopefully ED stays the course as well!

 

[Hummingbird]

 

You don’t seem to understand the maneuver flap envelope or how they function and what causes them to break at all...

 

 

 

Perhaps I don't, I only know what I can read in the NATOPS manual where the CADC schedule for the maneuver flaps/slats is illustrated: It says they don't deploy beyond 0.58 mach at SL, an envelope which ofcourse extends further the higher you go due to the thinnening air, which in turn also lowers the lift curve and reduces the amount of available G.

 

In other words all I was saying was that 8.2 G's in a Cat with maneuver flaps/slats out indicates a strong pull - and the resulting flap damage could be due to a combination of fatigue and the G's being assymetrically applied.

[TLTeo]

 

100% agreed and very much so appreciated :thumbup: It's just that the majority of the community seems to be focused on the "Call of Duty / Airquake" aspect of the game, racking up as many kills and getting high kill/death ratios in PvP. Everyone can obviously decide to play the game the way he or she wants and take it as seriously as they want but then they also shouldn't comlain about "balance" when a developer like HB decides to take the simulation deeper and make it more true-to life in various aspects. This will sadly be a never ending discussion, really.

 

That's a pretty common misconception actually. I recall ED saying that roughly 70% are either fly in SP exclusively or most of the time. It's just that the airquake folks are bloody loud.

[Sonoda Umi]

 

Perhaps I don't, I only know what I can read in the NATOPS manual where the CADC schedule for the maneuver flaps/slats is illustrated: It says they don't deploy beyond 0.58 mach at SL, an envelope which ofcourse extends further the higher you go due to the thinnening air, which in turn also lowers the lift curve and reduces the amount of available G.

 

In other words all I was saying was that 8.2 G's in a Cat with maneuver flaps/slats out indicates a strong pull - ans flap damage could be due to a combination of fatigue and the G's being assymetrically applied.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/forum/news/official-updates/201318-dcs-world-2-5-changelog-and-updates-of-open-beta/page6#post7150414

 

Today(Nov. 23) it has a mini-patch, but it not mentions about F-14 turning performance. You can see this update whether fixes the issue or not.

[Wildwind]

 

If you want to learn, and see how good you are, then the answer is to fly 1v1 against similar F14’s. The rest is Call of Duty level nonsense, not worthy of your time.

 

My involvement in this emanates from a desire to preserve the history of the aircraft, meaning duplicating it as it was, so others can experience the good and the bad. Otherwise, it’s just a game, and a waste of time.

 

Just wanted to say how much I appreciate this. As a player, I'm in it for the experience. I'll obviously never have the opportunity to fly a real Tomcat, so the sim is as close as I will ever get. The degree of effort that has gone into accurately modeling the aircraft is what has made it my favorite module in DCS. Thank you for your part in this.

[Harlikwin]

I assume that all of this drama is directed because some of you want to dominate while playing on online servers?

 

All drama related to the F14 relates to this, be it manouvers, be it jester, be it missiles.

[Wildwind]

 

All drama related to the F14 relates to this, be it manouvers, be it jester, be it missiles.

 

To be fair, I think some of the missile drama is more related to the fact that missile modeling in DCS is just not very consistent right now. That's a problem even in single-player, and it's a realism problem as well. But I think you're very much right about the rest of it.

[Harlikwin]

The ability to do more heavily loaded rolls is a marginal advantage at best, though now heavily used to evade missiles (because a tight 7g barrel roll apparently destroys the current guidance model somehow)

 

Because thats how they did it topgun! Right after takeoff too, just to make sure.

 

[GGTharos]

 

Because thats how they did it topgun! Right after takeoff too, just to make sure.

 

.. do a barrel roll?

[Harlikwin]

 

.. do a barrel roll?

 

Yeah thats the joke. :) Some other "fighter movies" did it too from that era IIRC.

[Quid]

 

All drama related to the F14 relates to this, be it manouvers, be it jester, be it missiles.

 

I'd say that's true for most of the drama for most of the DCS modules out there...

[Snappy]

Did the internal fix make it into EDs hotfix today? The patch notes seem to indicate no, but they re not always complete as to what was fixed and what not.

 

Kind regards,

 

Snappy

[Southernbear]

As for the 13.3G thing, yes they were concerned due to the long but thing wings that at high G they would snap off...but that is not to say the F-14 is a 13G aircraft. Because it turns out the engines rip out of their nacelle before the wings snap off...and thats what they found out with those tests.

[fat creason]

Did the internal fix make it into EDs hotfix today? The patch notes seem to indicate no, but they re not always complete as to what was fixed and what not.

 

Kind regards,

 

Snappy

 

The hotfix today was just some stuff ED wanted to push. As far as I know, the next F-14 patch will come next week. We were ready and hoping for a Wednesday patch this week but doesn't look like it's going to happen.

[IronMike]

I would like to kindly remind us all, who are not real fighter pilots, that we all fly "airquake" to some extent, when compared to reality. Some of us strive for more sim-realism, others strive for more game-action, both strive for fun in their own way. I would like to encourage both sides to a) do whatever brings them the most joy in the sim/game and b) be mindful and respectful of each other. If you are aware of your choice, and still keep an open mind for the other side, even more can be gained. Both sides have their legitimacy and both sides add tremendous value to DCS, not only by bringing people to DCS, but different opinions, different views and perspectives, and yes, that includes misconceptions.

 

The way I see it, is as a chance: The chance we have by persuing realistic simulations (as much as is possible), is to spread and teach knowledge and to tell history accurately. With so many half-truths being available online, it comes to no surprise that those who are no experts, are well: no experts. It is not requested of them. It is our duty however to be persistant in realism, so that such lessons learned while experiencing an aircraft, can be taken as such. Which is a learning process for us as well. Thus it is also a chance if things get questioned.

 

Guys like us, in Heatblur, are merely mediators of that knowledge, like librarians, if you will. We put together that knowledge, so that you can experience it. Relive it, I would almost say: touch it. Every time someone of us does not know something about a fighter jet fully, because it is not his or her profession - and that is true for most of us in different extents - it is a chance to learn something together. To discover something new. To educate ourselves. To correct our misconceptions together. I like to embrace that thought, which is why it matters little to me, how someone chooses to fly in DCS. This is also the reason why a simulator dev should never cave to community opinions or requests for nerfing/buffing: decisions must follow verifyable knowledge, even if things like playability need to be kept in mind as well. And if folks claim falsehoods that have been fed to them just the same way: it's an opportunity for devs and SMEs and those of us who function as "custodians" of said knowledge, to point them in the right direction. Else, these misconceptions would always remain just that. And I cannot stress enough, how lucky we are to have Victory and others, who are willing to teach us. But also lucky to have you all, who keep asking questions. Who keep being curious. Who keep wanting to know more. Thank you. :)

Edited November 23, 2020 by IronMike

[Victory205]

Keeping with the spirit of investigation and learning. Here's something for you all to try, when you have the chance-

 

Fly the Case I pattern with right turns instead of left. See what you think about having the angled deck aligned 9 degrees to the pattern side does to your approach. Is it easier, harder, or just weird?

 

[Victory205]

I'm just super sad at what my little whiny twatness has created and led to.

 

Now there will be nothing that can compete with and no other way to win WVR gunfights in any module other than the communist EF2K.

 

I guess the moral of the story here for me is to be careful what I piss and moan about and wish to be changed, because I might get it and now I've essentially cut my own virtual nuts off.

 

Pick up your balls, and get back in the fight... ;)

 

[Wildwind]

Keeping with the spirit of investigation and learning. Here's something for you all to try, when you have the chance-

 

Fly the Case I pattern with right turns instead of left. See what you think about having the angled deck aligned 9 degrees to the pattern side does to your approach. Is it easier, harder, or just weird?

 

I haven't gotten good at flying it the regular way, yet. But now I'm curious, so I'll have to remember to try this once I think I'm good enough at it to properly evaluate how it changes things. You've got me wondering what the reason for doing it with left turns is.

[Fri13]

 

That's a pretty common misconception actually. I recall ED saying that roughly 70% are either fly in SP exclusively or most of the time. It's just that the airquake folks are bloody loud.

 

Well, take example a flight club where many has a license and some even own the aircraft if not completely then shared, and you can have example 50-70 people in the club that half doesn't have license as they do other things as well. Then you can have a 2-8 computers for training purposes in the club. Let's say that all are capable to run DCS World (or some other simulator). Most of the time spent for flying would be likely Single Player, but then there are those who fly together sometimes. How would such a group be calculated to be "multiplayer" or "single player"? Is the LAN flight a "multiplayer" when it is not at all such competition or as typically people think as "connect to third party server where are others random people, go to blow some stuff up...."?

 

And discussions about DCS in those groups is not that everyone comes here to tell their opinions or give feedback, but that there might even be just one who will take it from the group and write about it here sometimes. So even then a large group of people are just "silent" to ED and the people here.

In such environments it is critical that the simulator is 100% working condition, as rarely there is someone who can spend lots of time to track the bugs and update things etc. It just needs to work that when some members comes to club they can just start the computers and get to flying after briefing etc.

 

Why as well the only real mattering platform is the Stable branch, not the Open Beta or Early Access as those are just for the testers or such minded people who should be capable accept that each update can brake things or cause serious unexpected changes and needs to be fixed soon in next updates.

[Victory205]

 

I haven't gotten good at flying it the regular way, yet. But now I'm curious, so I'll have to remember to try this once I think I'm good enough at it to properly evaluate how it changes things. You've got me wondering what the reason for doing it with left turns is.

 

AFAIK, there were only two carriers with their islands to port, Hiryu and Akagi (both sunk during the battle of Midway). Supposedly, the Japanese wanted to steam the carriers in close proximity for AA protection, while allowing flight operations using opposite patterns to deconflict, and allow for closer ship spacing.

 

Why the standard pattern is to the left is supposed to be due to engine torque, but I'm not convinced. Additionally, most pilots with a center mounted control stick are more comfortable turning to the left, since their hand is essentially on the right side of the stick, and pushes rather than pulls. Most pilots, find that it is easer to fly formation looking over your throttle hand than your stick hand, and even the Blue Angels thought that flying the left wing was more difficult than the right wing. How that translates to side sticks is beyond me.

 

Pilots when called to "break", also have a tendency to break left, all things being equal. I thought that one had merit.

[uhntissbaby111]

Pilots when called to "break", also have a tendency to break left, all things being equal. I thought that one had merit.

 

When I’m flying in DCS and doing turns at various conditions to see what gives optimal performance, my default turn direction is left. Never thought why, it’s just the direction I naturally prefer to turn

 

 

[Rock3tman_]

Pilots when called to "break", also have a tendency to break left, all things being equal. I thought that one had merit.

 

Fighter pilots and NASCAR drivers both, then. :P

 

 

[freehand]

 

In 99% of cases it is exactly that. Also due to the lack of such attention to detail or "realism" on all other modules in DCS. You can pull and roll your heart out in the F15 or Mig-29 without anything ever breaking.

 

Ah so by this statement you own the F18 module and are a ex F18 Pilot cool great to see the real deal here in dcs forums could you please if possible give me some guidance on the problems and inaccuracy of the flight model of the F18

 

Thank you.

 

 

 

 

 

[IronMike]

 

When I’m flying in DCS and doing turns at various conditions to see what gives optimal performance, my default turn direction is left. Never thought why, it’s just the direction I naturally prefer to turn

 

 

Because you are likely right handed. This can be observed in most BFM merges as well: the majority of us instinctively go for a left turn. A right turn in the merge surprises a lot of virtual pilots. And few do it.

 

EDIT: just saw Victory already commented on it.

[Wildwind]

 

AFAIK, there were only two carriers with their islands to port, Hiryu and Akagi (both sunk during the battle of Midway). Supposedly, the Japanese wanted to steam the carriers in close proximity for AA protection, while allowing flight operations using opposite patterns to deconflict, and allow for closer ship spacing.

 

Yes, I recently read Shattered Sword, and I now remember reading about that unique arrangement - but I'd forgotten about it until you mentioned it. That was an enlightening read; I hadn't realized just how different Japanese carrier doctrine was from US carrier doctrine of the time.

 

 

Why the standard pattern is to the left is supposed to be due to engine torque, but I'm not convinced. Additionally, most pilots with a center mounted control stick are more comfortable turning to the left, since their hand is essentially on the right side of the stick, and pushes rather than pulls. Most pilots, find that it is easer to fly formation looking over your throttle hand than your stick hand, and even the Blue Angels thought that flying the left wing was more difficult than the right wing. How that translates to side sticks is beyond me.

 

Pilots when called to "break", also have a tendency to break left, all things being equal. I thought that one had merit.

 

I had been wondering if it was a holdover from propeller aircraft days. Certainly engine torque would be more of a factor in something like, say, a Hellcat. Playing DCS WWII has really enlightened me a lot to handling characteristics of propeller aircraft that I had never really thought about from playing other sims that didn't model them to the same detail.

 

And yet, your other observations about pilot tendencies and handed-ness seem at least as likely to be reasons for it - or possibly some combination of the above. I probably wouldn't have thought of that, since I've been using a sidestick for years now (the chair I have doesn't work and play well with a center mount; I had to remove the arms from it just to make the side mount viable)

 

Though, actually... I suspect I probably tend to break left, also. It's a bit more of a natural motion to pull the stick in toward my body than it is to push it away

 

Interesting things to think about.