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HARM in TOO don't LOFT to target (in our case less than 40NM) missing target


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I was flying after last update with my squadron and my wingman fired 2x HARMs at less than 40NM, FL300 and speed of MACH 1.1 and the HARMs just flew straight away to the SA-2.

 

The problem is that because they didn't loft before descent, didn't had speed enough to hit the targets.

 

 

Track https://www.vfa-83.com/app/upload/tracks/FABvirtual_Day_VFR_7_Dia-20201118-173748.trk

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Harm isn’t supposed to loft in too mode

 

So, you are saying that WAG's video is wrong, because he did a launch from 14.000ft, less than 300kts and the HARM in TOO mode did loft, climbing before go down in the target like the video bellow:

 

 

According to Chuck's Guide, the HARM could be launch from 30.000FT at 400kts and 50NM from target that it hit the target. Remembering you that my wingman was at 30.000ft climbing, Mach 1.08 and 39NM from target.

It should be a good reason for the HARM hit the target.

 

Something is wrong because in Wag's video it shows the opposite.

 

Some updates before, the HARM usually did it, climbing before drop right into the target. From last 2 updates I think it don't occurs anymore.

 

 

The question is: What's wrong? Who is wrong, Wag's video or your answer?

 

I just want to know if my HARM is bugged or not.

 

 

Best regards,

 

Thanks

 

 

Borba

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So, when should the HARM loft? Because if it couldn't hit anything from 40NM at proper altitude and speed, it is inefficient for the combat right? You need to go closed enough to be lock by a SAM.

 

In SP (self protect) mode, they will loft (apparently it is not considered lofting even though they climb in altitude upon release, my mistake).

 

If you haven't used them in SP mode, you need to have EW repeated on HUD:

 

1. EW page on DDI, box HUD (now you can remove EW from being displayed on a DDI)

2. AG mode

3. HARM display on DDI

4. Ensure SP mode is boxed

5. RAID/FLIR/FOV will cycle RWR emission, indicated by emitter being 'boxed' on HUD display

6. Master ARM on

7. Call magnum and release weapon (watch it loft away)

 

If you're lucky, the HARM will somehow get passed the incoming missile that is wanting to shoot it down more than the dog wants to attack the mail man.

 

They can cover 30-40nm at FL300 with the aircraft being 0.80-1.0 mach, I've done it several times and even did it today with the most recent update/patch (released 11/18/2020 OB xxxxxxxxxx949).

 

 

Cheers,

 

Ziptie


Edited by Ziptie
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In SP (self protect) mode, they will loft.

 

Uhm, no, they don't loft in SP mode either: https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.c...a/2.5.6.57264/

 

  • Removed LOFT for HARM in TOO and SP modes (same way as F-16C)

 

The only mode where HARMs can loft is PB (Pre-Briefed) mode, which we don't have yet.

The reason for that is, that the missile need to know the range to the target to be able to create an efficient lofting profile. TOO and SP modes are range unkown modes. Range is only available in PB mode on our F/A-18C Hornet. The F-16 will get the HTS (Harm Targeting System) pod, which will provide range information to other modes as well, but the Hornet doesn't have that.

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Uhm, no, they don't loft in SP mode either: https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.c...a/2.5.6.57264/

 

Oh, apologies. When I fire the missile and it climbs well above my aircraft when I am at FL300 at the time of employment - I consider that lofting. I don't fire them on the deck, so my frame of reference only is at high altitudes. I added clarification in my previous post to acknowledge and mitigate confusion.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Ziptie

i7 6700 @4ghz, 32GB HyperX Fury ddr4-2133 ram, GTX980, Oculus Rift CV1, 2x400 gig SSD drives (one soley for DCS OpenBeta standalone) Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS, Thrustmaster Cougar MFDs

 

Airframes: A10C, A10CII, F/A-18C, F-14B, F-16C, FC3. Modules: Combined Arms, Supercarrier. Terrains: Persian Gulf, Nevada NTTR, Syria

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Oh, apologies. When I fire the missile and it climbs well above my aircraft when I am at FL300 at the time of employment - I consider that lofting. I don't fire them on the deck, so my frame of reference only is at high altitudes. I added clarification in my previous post to acknowledge and mitigate confusion.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Ziptie

 

If it's climbing, then it's probably bugged

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Oh, apologies. When I fire the missile and it climbs well above my aircraft when I am at FL300 at the time of employment - I consider that lofting. I don't fire them on the deck, so my frame of reference only is at high altitudes. I added clarification in my previous post to acknowledge and mitigate confusion.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Ziptie

 

In the Open Beta? If yes, then this is a bug, as the changelog I have linked above clearly states, that it shouldn't loft in SP and TOO.

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As said, HARMs can't loft if they don't know the range to target. Only Pre-brief (PB) mode provides range to the target, and we don't have it implemented yet. They are much shorter range now than they were before the lofting got fixed, but that doesn't make them useless. You'll have to dodge SAMs now. Best with a 2-ship or more so you can cover each other and call out missile launches.

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In the Open Beta? If yes, then this is a bug, as the changelog I have linked above clearly states, that it shouldn't loft in SP and TOO.

 

Yes, using Open Beta (released 11/18/2020 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx949). Did it yesterday. Sent 4 off. Sadly all 4 were intercepted by the SAM site. Will try again Saturday if I am able to fly and will grab a screen capture of them doing it, then share here.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Ziptie

i7 6700 @4ghz, 32GB HyperX Fury ddr4-2133 ram, GTX980, Oculus Rift CV1, 2x400 gig SSD drives (one soley for DCS OpenBeta standalone) Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS, Thrustmaster Cougar MFDs

 

Airframes: A10C, A10CII, F/A-18C, F-14B, F-16C, FC3. Modules: Combined Arms, Supercarrier. Terrains: Persian Gulf, Nevada NTTR, Syria

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That's weird, they don't loft for me in SP in the current beta. They do go straight out for a second or so, though. Maybe you were climbing/nose high?

 

I could have had some pitch up, but do not recall (I mean I know it wasn't like a 30 degree pitch up). I'll report back Saturday after I've been able to fly again and try to replicate.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Ziptie

i7 6700 @4ghz, 32GB HyperX Fury ddr4-2133 ram, GTX980, Oculus Rift CV1, 2x400 gig SSD drives (one soley for DCS OpenBeta standalone) Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS, Thrustmaster Cougar MFDs

 

Airframes: A10C, A10CII, F/A-18C, F-14B, F-16C, FC3. Modules: Combined Arms, Supercarrier. Terrains: Persian Gulf, Nevada NTTR, Syria

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Are we confident that the missile should not loft - at all? I mean, it should be possible to get at least a rough estimate of the range as the slant angle and current altitute should be known. Also it should not be necessary to go straight down to the target. Instead the missile could try to keep the target near the lower edge of the seeker FOV and align more precisely as it gets closer to the target (i.e. as the rate of the slant angle change increases; similar to ARBS).

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HARM should only loft in Pre-Briefed mode, as it's the only mode that provides ranging data for the missile to calculate the loft profile. SP and TOO mode are only directional attack modes, they have no idea what the range is to the contact.

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As said, HARMs can't loft if they don't know the range to target.

This isn't technically true. It's entirely possible to execute a lofting profile without range information. All the missile needs to do is perform a fixed G pull up maneuver at launch and fly the climb until the target is a pre-programmed number of degrees below the nose. The Maverick flies a lofting attack profile using this method and it never has range to target information.

 

The real F-16 has lofting cues in HAS mode, so it would seem that it does some lofting there. That may or may not have any bearing on TOO mode in the Hornet, I don't know. I can't say for sure if it should loft or not in TOO, but not knowing the range doesn't make it impossible.

 

 

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