[NO BUG] Flaps .. again

[Wildwind]

9 minutes ago, Kula66 said:

Thanks. You enjoy flying it your way, and I'll try and enjoy flying it my way ... although at the moment, the 14 has a number of critical issues meaning, for me, its not enjoyable at all - but  hey, I do have a piece of string to watch!

I don't begrudge you your playstyle.  I'm perfectly content playing single-player and running campaigns.

But, invariably someone comes along asking questions like, "Why don't more people play multiplayer?" (someone just posted a thread to that very effect on Reddit just two days ago, in fact), and ultimately, this is the answer: my preferred playstyle doesn't mix well with the playstyles of most players on public multiplayer servers..

 

To me this is much more "simulation" than "game".  It's only to be expected that someone who views it differently would have different priorities.

[Kula66]

Funnily enough, I agree with you, I fly mainly SP too and I find big MP servers (BFM & BVR) far too chaotic and AMRAAM spammy ..

[Wildwind]

2 minutes ago, Kula66 said:

Funnily enough, I agree with you, I fly mainly SP too and I find big MP servers (BFM & BVR) far too chaotic and AMRAAM spammy ..

Yeah, it's really kind of a range of playstyles, rather than a binary thing.

 

I mean, I know there are people out there who are way more hardcore about realism than I am, who want every little detail to be perfect, and they go and form squadrons with other like-minded people and pretty much re-create reality as best they can..

And then there's someone like me... I'm still pretty serious about realism, and want the real experience as much as possible, but I knows I don't have the time (or the patience) to go quite that  far.

And then there's someone else who wants things to be mostly realistic but maybe wants to idealize things a little bit.  This may be you, I'm not sure?  I kinda get the impression that you want to be able to fly the plane to its very limits every single time, which is kind of an idealized version of reality (and I don't mean this as any kind of criticism, at all.  We all do this to an extent, and it's really a question of which things we choose to idealize.  I sometimes like to load up a plane at Nellis and then go blasting down the Vegas strip at 500+ knots 50 feet off the ground, which... well, realistically, you could do that... once  ) One of the advantages of sim is you can have that sort of thing when you want it.

And then there's someone out there who wants to fly realistic missions but is totally in it for the multiplayer, and they aren't so hardcore as to go in for a closed squadron, but they are willing to accept a bit more casual environment to have that social aspect.

And then there's someone else out there who just wants to fight and win and wants the airquake mechanics (but still wants a realistic flight model, which is why he's not playing War Thunder or something else).

 

And there's room for all those folks.  Or, at least, there is as long as you don't try to put them all on the same server, because then there will be friction.

[Kula66]

2 minutes ago, Wildwind said:

I kinda get the impression that you want to be able to fly the plane to its very limits every single time, which is kind of an idealized version of reality

I think thats a very fair summation ... I just don't have the time/brain capacity or, to be fair, inclination to learn NATOPs and fly 100% by the rules - I'd make a poor RL pilot. Hopefully they'll fix this beast soon and I can start learning to BFM 'properly' without flaps! ... Take care and happy simming

[Wildwind]

11 hours ago, Kula66 said:

I think thats a very fair summation ... I just don't have the time/brain capacity or, to be fair, inclination to learn NATOPs and fly 100% by the rules - I'd make a poor RL pilot. Hopefully they'll fix this beast soon and I can start learning to BFM 'properly' without flaps! ... Take care and happy simming

See, I think that's exactly the reason I feel the way I do about it - I wanted to be a RL fighter pilot.  Desperately.  In fact, I almost went to the Air Force Academy, had my recommendation and everything... and let someone talk me out of it (well, really, someone told me I was too tall and wouldn't be able to fly fighters, and I believed them, and then later found out that was more true for some fighters and less true for others).  A decision I've long regretted (I mean, would I have made it?  Who knows... few do.  But I deeply regret not trying).  So... when I fly in DCS, I'm basically living the life I wanted to have and didn't.

 

So I try to make it as real as I possibly can.

 

(It occurs to me that someone is probably asking the question, "If he wanted to be Air Force, why is he flying the Tomcat primarily?"  And the answer to that question is that I bought the Tomcat because the plane I really wanted (a full-fidelity F-15) doesn't exist in DCS.  And then after flying it, I just fell in love with it, and I've spent as much time flying the Tomcat as all the other planes I have combined since.

Edited December 6, 2020 by Wildwind

[draconus]

12 hours ago, Wildwind said:

...I bought the Tomcat because the plane I really wanted (a full-fidelity F-15) doesn't exist in DCS.  And then after flying it, I just fell in love with it, and I've spent as much time flying the Tomcat as all the other planes I have combined since.

OMG - that's exactly my story  The biggest surprise was the 2 crew.

 

@Kula66You got the point indeed. It happens many times in DCS: users complain about thing being wrong, devs fight for it as being correct as is, then after some time they correct it and say it's correct now

Edited December 6, 2020 by draconus

[Wildwind]

8 hours ago, draconus said:

OMG - that's exactly my story  The biggest surprise was the 2 crew.

 

@Kula66You got the point indeed. It happens many times in DCS: users complain about thing being wrong, devs fight for it as being correct as is, then after some time they correct it and say it's correct now

I just love its ornery, stubborn, analog, flight characteristics.  It feels so very alive when you fly it.

 

My first car was a 1965 Mustang; rebuilt the motor myself.  Since the missing data plate on my Mustang meant no collector would ever buy it, I was free to modify it, and so I did.  Shelby headers, Edelbrock manifold, Holley carb, roller rockers, plate-bored .030 over... that car was hot, and she would smoke a lot of newer cars off the line, but she was a real handful to drive (I attribute the fact that I'm a pretty good driver now to that Mustang; she taught me to respect cars and forced me to learn skills I might have otherwise missed out on).  All that V8 weight in the front, dragster gears in the back, three-speed transmission, total lack of modern  conveniences... but she was light and had a ton of power and (after I rebuilt it and lowered the front an inch Shelby-style) she would handle... as long as you knew how to handle her.  If you didn't, she would get out of shape really fast.

 

Flying the Tomcat is like driving that old Mustang, but turned up to 11.  All the performance you could ever want is there, but to draw it out you've got to treat her right.  Get reckless or careless and, just like that Mustang, she'll throw the tail out and you'll be spinning off to nowhere in a heartbeat.  She's wild, unruly, temperamental, and I love that about her.

 

I will definitely grant that not having to fiddle with the radar and being able to focus on flying it is a bonus, for sure.

[captain_dalan]

On 12/5/2020 at 4:13 PM, draconus said:

1. That'd mean from 72' 70-GR up to 79' 110-GR A's. Will it be modeled then for our Iranian bird?

2. I meant the ridiculous idea of deliberately not using flaps even if you can by being afraid of jamming them.

1. I hope so!
2. Why not? Unless landing on the boat, they aren't really needed! (The full flaps down i mean).

On 12/6/2020 at 10:52 AM, Wildwind said:

(It occurs to me that someone is probably asking the question, "If he wanted to be Air Force, why is he flying the Tomcat primarily?"  And the answer to that question is that I bought the Tomcat because the plane I really wanted (a full-fidelity F-15) doesn't exist in DCS.  And then after flying it, I just fell in love with it, and I've spent as much time flying the Tomcat as all the other planes I have combined since.

 

Ditto. It now accounts for over 75% of my flight hours.
Though i've hardly touched her since the November update and it  looks like the December one is going to be any better
So 2 months in a row on a Tomcat fast.....not nice.....not one bit

[Wildwind]

On 12/19/2020 at 11:15 AM, captain_dalan said:

1. I hope so!
2. Why not? Unless landing on the boat, they aren't really needed! (The full flaps down i mean).

Ditto. It now accounts for over 75% of my flight hours.
Though i've hardly touched her since the November update and it  looks like the December one is going to be any better
So 2 months in a row on a Tomcat fast.....not nice.....not one bit

 

I've been playing MSFS and working on my basic piloting skills while waiting for fixes.

 

I realized somewhere along the way that my problems with low speed controllability/flying the landing pattern in the Tomcat were due to fundamental flaws in my (self-trained via sim) piloting skills.  MSFS gives me a way to fly around the world and look at some nice scenery while I practice the skills from the online book Victory linked me.  So, when I come back I'll be a better Tomcat pilot by virtue of being a better pilot.

[captain_dalan]

6 hours ago, Wildwind said:

 

I've been playing MSFS and working on my basic piloting skills while waiting for fixes.

 

I realized somewhere along the way that my problems with low speed controllability/flying the landing pattern in the Tomcat were due to fundamental flaws in my (self-trained via sim) piloting skills.  MSFS gives me a way to fly around the world and look at some nice scenery while I practice the skills from the online book Victory linked me.  So, when I come back I'll be a better Tomcat pilot by virtue of being a better pilot.

You are the second person that tells me that MSFS improved his flying skills. Unfortunately right now i don't have nearly enough free time to try it out. The good news is the recent hotfix improved the state of the F-14 quite a bit. Haven't tested the 54's yet, but the Sparrows work now. And the FM quirks seam to have been "ironed out" a bit. Still not quite there, but certainly better then it used to be.
 

 

[draconus]

If you're trying to ad other sim here you're in the wrong place. There's nothing you can learn there which flying even free aircraft in DCS can't teach you.

[Wildwind]

On 12/25/2020 at 3:48 AM, draconus said:

If you're trying to ad other sim here you're in the wrong place. There's nothing you can learn there which flying even free aircraft in DCS can't teach you.

 

Certainly not.  The reason I am flying the other sim so to get better at flying so I can be better at flying in DCS.  It's merely the means I chose to this particular end, not something I'm trying to recommend. 

 

The reasons for me to fly the other sim are:

1). To fly slower, lower-performance planes, where I can more carefully evaluate what I am doing right and wrong.   Nobody learns to fly in fast jets, and there's a reason for that.  Even the TF-51 is vastly faster and less forgiving than a Cessna 152.

2). The maps in DCS don't really encourage one to just go fly.  There's not much to explore. 

3). DCS brings the constant temtpation to go fight something, because DCS is only fun when you are fighting.  Right now when I am fighting I am not learning the things I need to learn.  I needed to get away from fighting for a while and just focus on flying.

 

Understand that I am talking about learning the very fundamentals of flight here.  Things every pilot learns before their first solo.  And yes, you absolutely can learn those things in DCS.  But I personally struggle to learn those things in DCS; I needed to go somewhere else to learn them.

 

 

[draconus]

@WildwindYou're wrong in all points but like I said - wrong place to discuss it. It's either your attitude or you don't know much about DCS to take best of it. Keep flying whatever works for you. Cheers.

[Wavehopper]

After about 300 hours in the Tomcat I have yet to jam the flaps due to misadventure.  I simply don't touch them unless I'm landing or recovering at very low speed and very low altitude.  Even then I'm loathed to use them as I thought that's what the leading edge slats are for.

 

Conversely, a friend of mine who I'm helping to train up has broken them several times (he's brand new to flight sims).  The cause I suspect is heavy handedness on landing approaches. Inexperienced pilots tend to react rather than pre-empt and I think that's his problem.  All of a sudden the jet will start climbing or descending and he will put in a panicked input via the stick probably putting too many G's on it.

 

You see it in a lot of Tomcat videos on youtube as well.  People will just crank as hard as possible and the AoA meter just goes through the roof and turns them into a giant airbrake.  If they're doing that sort of thing with flaps out at low speed it's no wonder the flaps keep jamming.

Edited December 27, 2020 by Wavehopper

[Mr. Big.Biggs]

13 hours ago, draconus said:

@WildwindYou're wrong in all points but like I said - wrong place to discuss it. It's either your attitude or you don't know much about DCS to take best of it. Keep flying whatever works for you. Cheers.

My vote for post of the year!!

” Your completely wrong but I don’t want to discuss why. BTW, your attitude stinks and you don’t know much, so cheers!!...”

 

see what your missing here @wildwing is that all pilots, including military actually learn first on the f14 in dcs THEN translate to planes like the Cessna 152 only after they are completely competent because you can’t learn anywhere else.  But I don’t want to discuss that here..... 

[Quid]

My question is what techniques are virtual pilots using that are causing the flaps to jam around the boat?  Since the update, I haven't jammed the flaps even once on either takeoff or landing from the carrier.  Leave the catapult, gear up, about 1-2 seconds later flaps up, no jam.  On approach, I drop the gear around 250, flaps at 220, land, no jam.  Not once.  For what it's worth, the manual includes a CAUTION statement to move the flap handle to up passing 180 KIAS to prevent an over-speed, so maybe try that? 

[Wildwind]

18 hours ago, draconus said:

@WildwindYou're wrong in all points but like I said - wrong place to discuss it. It's either your attitude or you don't know much about DCS to take best of it. Keep flying whatever works for you. Cheers.

 

It's not about "attitude".  It's about learning styles and preferences.

 

Ultimately, I'm trying to learn these skills the way real pilots learn them (except without the benefit of an instructor, unfortunately).

 

Ultimately, what software I use to do it is less important to me than creating a learning environment that works for me is.  I'm not suggesting that anyone else do it my way.  My way may  not work for anyone else, but it works for me.

 

And in that regard, you can't tell me I'm "wrong", because it's a subjective thing.  Your learning style isn't the same as mine, and what works for you likely will not work for me (and vice versa).  There were some skills I have been able to practice effectively in DCS (for example, the F-14 is great for practicing coordinated turns because of the yaw string, for example).  But for other things, it just doesn't work for me.  Some of the most basic skills are just harder to learn in fast aircraft, and every aircraft I have in DCS (except the A-10, which coordinates your turns for you and thus cultivates bad habits) is too fast for training the most basic piloting skills, at least for me.

 

DCS is an excellent simulator, but all the aircraft in it are aircraft you'd never get your hands on as a student pilot, because you aren't ready to fly them yet.  This is, of course, by design; the simulator is focused on combat aircraft.  And yes, this includes the trainers in the game, because they are all advanced trainers.  It's not a fault of DCS, at all... DCS does what it is designed to do.